When was hell created?

[powerofk]

Hell was created for the place of torment for Satan and his angels. It is a place in the eternal/spiritual realm, but to be honest, it is difficult, if not impossible, for us in the temporal/physical realm to understand what place means in the eternal/spiritual realm. We cannot ordinarily see spirits, even those who have been given to us to protect us (our guardian angels).

Jesus usually used the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna in Aramaic) as an allusion to Hell. During Jesus’s time in a mortal body, the Hinnom Valley was a garbage dump in which Jerusalem’s waste was continuously being incinerated. There was always more garbage, so the fires kept going day and night and the worms never went away (thus “Where the worm does not die and the fires are never quenched”). During the pre-exilic times, the same valley was the infamous site of Topheth - an altar on which Israelites would sacrifice their children to the Moabite “god” Chemosh. It was so bad that Jeremiah called it the “Valley of Slaughter”. This would not have been lost on Jesus’s disciples, either.

 

[patmiron]

=Gorgias;13201523]Why are two of ya’ll using a single account?

He [AL] is 84 and not signed on and my bride of 48 years are visiting them. He desired to teach ME something that I felt was worthy of sharing

God Bless you!

Patrick

 

[patmiron]

=Abba;13202425]fred conty,

I just found a nice article right here on CA:

catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Very nice Thank you and continued Blessings

Patrick

 

[fred_conty]

fred conty,

I just found a nice article right here on CA:

catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Here is an interesting thought from this page by Tim Staples.

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/what-is-hell

1. Is Hell a “Place” or a “State of Being?”

Hell is primarily a state of being, but inasmuch as the souls there will have bodies after the resurrection of the dead, they will have location as well. So, in that sense, we can say Hell is a “place.” In fact, we could say the same of heaven. But both heaven and hell are not “places” in the sense that the people there could “leave” and “return.” Inasmuch as these are states of being, “heaven” and “hell” are present wherever the saints and damned are.

Tim Staples seems to be saying that right now hell is not a place. But it will be a place as a natural consequence of having bodies rasied from the dead at the final day of judgment.

I would have to agree with him since angels are pure spirits, and dead people give up their souls which are also spirits. So for now it would seem from this hell is not a place but a state, tho hell may become localized as a place later.

 

[truetofaith]

Didn’t Jesus say, His Father’s house has many mansions & He was preparing a place for us

 

[Abba]

Didn’t Jesus say, His Father’s house has many mansions & He was preparing a place for us

I am with you. The modern understanding is that it is a ‘state of mind’ of sorts. The ones that think it is a ‘place’ are considered backwards, unlearned and a little dumb. The argument is that in old times people were not very educated and so to simplify it, the Church or priests taught it as a ‘place’. I don’t buy the argument.

I think that souls who go to hell will not have a ‘glorified body’ but they will have a body nonetheless. I liked the CA article because it provides many quotes from the Fathers of the Church etc… one of which is from Saint Cyril:

Cyril of Jerusalem

“We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We b.aspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past” (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

…or the punishment etc…

 

[fred_conty]

Didn’t Jesus say, His Father’s house has many mansions & He was preparing a place for us

In our world a mansion means a luxurious place to live. And there are mansions which are more luxurious than others.

So too in heaven, “mansion” means that some will have a closer union with God than others, and as such, will enjoy a happiness greater than others based on this degree of union. But everyone will be as happy as they can be made to be happy.

But anyone who is in heaven, even the very least, will experience something beyond their wildest earthly dreams. St. Paul says this…that eye and ear has never experienced what God has in store for those who love him.

 

[patmiron]

=truetofaith;13204372]Didn’t Jesus say, His Father’s house has many mansions & He was preparing a place for us

Yes BUT, the price of admission is great humility, total obedience to ALL that He actually taught [thus Salvation does and it must FLOW through the RCC], the only place one can find the FULLNESS of God’s Protected Truths:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[truetofaith]

Yes BUT, the price of admission is great humility, total obedience to ALL that He actually taught [thus Salvation does and it must FLOW through the RCC], the only place one can find the FULLNESS of God’s Protected Truths:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

I wasn’t disputing how we get to heaven …the controversy is whether it is an actual place or a ‘state of mind.’ Same with hell.

 

[Gorgias]

I wasn’t disputing how we get to heaven …the controversy is whether it is an actual place or a ‘state of mind.’ Same with hell.

I don’t know that anyone is suggesting that they are merely a “state of mind” – that is, that they only exist as constructs within individual minds! Rather, they are still real if they are “states of being” – that is, that actual souls exist in these states, but without any physical extension.

Of course, in the eschaton, they will be populated with people with glorified bodies – that is, they will have the property of ‘location’.

 

[patmiron]

Abba;13204701]I am with you. The modern understanding is that it is a ‘state of mind’ of sorts. The ones that think it is a ‘place’ are considered backwards, unlearned and a little dumb. The argument is that in old times people were not very educated and so to simplify it, the Church or priests taught it as a ‘place’. I don’t buy the argument.

I think that souls who go to hell will not have a ‘glorified body’ but they will have a body nonetheless. I liked the CA article because it provides many quotes from the Fathers of the Church etc… one of which is from Saint Cyril:

…or the punishment etc…

The "modern understanding is WRONG

If as you my friend suggest, heaven is only “in the mind”; where did Jesus ascend too?
And what about Elias also?

2 Kings 2:11
And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

**Luke 24:51-53 **
And it came to pass, whilst he blessed them, he departed from them, and was carried up to heaven. And they adoring went back into Jerusalem with great joy. And they were always in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Man, in fulfillment of God’s choice to “Create them in His Image”** Gen 1: 26-27** gives to all men a mind [not speaking of the brain here]; an intellect [not meaning our I.Q.] and a freewill; all of which like God are “Spiritual Realities”, [Jn 4:23-24] and all of which like God are “eternal”, which is to say do not die, nor can they be killed. And this package is given exclusively to man, that man can and therefore should know and worship Him: Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21.

What you are sharing is actually a heresy:blush: PLEASE check the veracity of what you post; this being a public forum imposes an obligation on us to share the truth carefully.

Thank you, and God Bless

Patrick

 

[Gorgias]

Abba;13204701:

I am with you. The modern understanding is that it is a ‘state of mind’ of sorts. The ones that think it is a ‘place’ are considered backwards, unlearned and a little dumb. The argument is that in old times people were not very educated and so to simplify it, the Church or priests taught it as a ‘place’. I don’t buy the argument.

The "modern understanding is WRONG

Thanks for pointing this out, Patrick.

Abba, your take on the ‘modern understanding’ – that heaven is only ‘in the mind’ – is not accurate. Heaven and hell are real! (But, until the eschaton, humanity will not exist there bodily.)

If as you my friend suggest, heaven is only “in the mind”; where did Jesus ascend too?

He isn’t really suggesting that he agrees with it; just that this is what many believe. And, I think he’s mischaracterizing what ‘many modern people believe’.

Jesus, as God, could ascend wherever He wanted, in whatever form He wanted.

And what about Elias also?

2 Kings 2:11
And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The question is whether this means “into heaven” or “into the heavens”. We could discuss (at length!) whether the number (singular/plural) is significant here.

 

[patmiron]

=truetofaith;13206744]I wasn’t disputing how we get to heaven …the controversy is whether it is an actual place or a ‘state of mind.’ Same with hell.

Thanks, in that case allow me to confirm that both Heaven and hell are very real and flow from God’s necessary justice:

Because God give to all men [and to no other creature except man]; a intellect; mind and freewill [all spiritual realities LIKE God: Gen 1:26-27 & Jn 4: 23-24] winch are too spiritual realities; and immortal like God; and does this with a precise HOPE that man will then FREELY choose to know Him, obey Him and Worship Him.

It must be by using this set of attributes granted to man alone; because God is Perfect and desires that perfect love be returned to Him. Perfect love MUST be freely given.

AND it is precisely because of ALL of the above that we can assured about what the Bible teaches as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches on Eternal Heaven or Hell: OUR Choice.

Gen 1: 26-27
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

Jn 4: 23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

Isa 43: 7 & 21
And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise.

Catholic Catechism: **1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live “in Christ,” but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. **

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom

2826 By prayer we can discern “what is the will of God” and obtain the endurance to do it. Jesus teaches us that one enters the kingdom of heaven not by speaking words, but by doing "the will of my Father in heaven."

1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately **after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

For God to “Be God” and freely choose to Create all men in His Image obligates God in an absolute sense to be “Fair” and “Just”; because like God these reflect His GOODNESS.Final Judgment of man’s freewill choices then MANDATE a final Judgment of our lives by God; thus Heaven and Hell [and Purgatory] .exist because God choose to Create us in His Image. amen!

What you are discussing is actually heresy.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Abba]

The "modern understanding is WRONG

If as you my friend suggest, heaven is only “in the mind”; where did Jesus ascend too?
And what about Elias also?

2 Kings 2:11
And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

**Luke 24:51-53 **
And it came to pass, whilst he blessed them, he departed from them, and was carried up to heaven. And they adoring went back into Jerusalem with great joy. And they were always in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Man, in fulfillment of God’s choice to “Create them in His Image”** Gen 1: 26-27** gives to all men a mind [not speaking of the brain here]; an intellect [not meaning our I.Q.] and a freewill; all of which like God are “Spiritual Realities”, [Jn 4:23-24] and all of which like God are “eternal”, which is to say do not die, nor can they be killed. And this package is given exclusively to man, that man can and therefore should know and worship Him: Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21.

What you are sharing is actually a heresy:blush: PLEASE check the veracity of what you post; this being a public forum imposes an obligation on us to share the truth carefully.

Thank you, and God Bless

Patrick

Hold your horses Patrick, I am on your side.

I obviously did not write clearly enough. Read my post again. I am telling the person I am responding to that I am with him/her in that hell is a place. I explain the argument of those who do not believe that hell is a place but I am not with them. They understanding as ‘separation from God’ and the bodiless spirits are floating or existing place-less.

It’s funny how people understand that hell is not a place, yet, understand that heaven is.

 

[truetofaith]

Thanks, in that case allow me to confirm that both Heaven and hell are very real and flow from God’s necessary justice:

Because God give to all men [and to no other creature except man]; a intellect; mind and freewill [all spiritual realities LIKE God: Gen 1:26-27 & Jn 4: 23-24] winch are too spiritual realities; and immortal like God; and does this with a precise HOPE that man will then FREELY choose to know Him, obey Him and Worship Him.

It must be by using this set of attributes granted to man alone; because God is Perfect and desires that perfect love be returned to Him. Perfect love MUST be freely given.

AND it is precisely because of ALL of the above that we can assured about what the Bible teaches as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches on Eternal Heaven or Hell: OUR Choice.

Gen 1: 26-27
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

Jn 4: 23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

Isa 43: 7 & 21
And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise.

Catholic Catechism: **1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live “in Christ,” but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. **

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom

2826 By prayer we can discern “what is the will of God” and obtain the endurance to do it. Jesus teaches us that one enters the kingdom of heaven not by speaking words, but by doing "the will of my Father in heaven."

1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately **after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

For God to “Be God” and freely choose to Create all men in His Image obligates God in an absolute sense to be “Fair” and “Just”; because like God these reflect His GOODNESS.Final Judgment of man’s freewill choices then MANDATE a final Judgment of our lives by God; thus Heaven and Hell [and Purgatory] .exist because God choose to Create us in His Image. amen!

What you are discussing is actually heresy.

God Bless you,

Patrick

Hey Patrick…I’m not saying heaven & hell are in the mind. I’m not talking heresy!

 

[PJM]

=Gorgias;13207677]Thanks for pointing this out, Patrick.

Abba, your take on the ‘modern understanding’ – that heaven is only ‘in the mind’ – is not accurate. Heaven and hell are real! (But, until the eschaton, humanity will not exist there bodily.)

He isn’t really suggesting that he agrees with it; just that this is what many believe. And, I think he’s mischaracterizing what ‘many modern people believe’.

Jesus, as God, could ascend wherever He wanted, in whatever form He wanted.

The question is whether this means “into heaven” or “into the heavens”. We could discuss (at length!) whether the number (singular/plural) is significant here.

BECAUSE it invlves BOTH doing Good and God’s GOODNESS [not possible any other way] we CAN know it IS into heaven eventually; after Christ Resurrection! And Heavens access was lock until that point: And those deserving of heaver prior to Christ Resurrection were detained is “LIMBO of the Fathers”

Thank you my friend for the clarification:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick PJM}

 

[Abba]

I don’t know that anyone is suggesting that they are merely a “state of mind” – that is, that they only exist as constructs within individual minds! Rather, they are still real if they are “states of being” – that is, that actual souls exist in these states, but without any physical extension.

Yes, you are right, Gorgias. I guess I was being some what sarcastic or trying to denigrade the understanding - which seems to be very common and popular in the western world. Your presentation is correct and clear, regarding the understanding of Catholics who do not believe or understand ‘hell’ as being a ‘place’. I was raised with the understanding which I still maintain of ‘hell’ being a ‘place’ - until I learn otherwise but, for now, I have not been provided with sufficient information to consider that ‘hell’ is not a ‘place’ (and of course, I do not only mean in this thread - I have researched the topic and read plenty).

The whole idea of ‘hell’ merely being ‘separation from God’ as the understanding goes of those who do not believe or understand ‘hell’ as being a ‘place’; just brings to mind the understanding of the Quakers and other cults which at least from my limited exposer to their beliefs, understand that the individuals become one - all in one. Kind of like drops of water united with the sea which become one with the sea. It’s not only an incorrect understanding but it is sad and tragic( kind of spooky thinking). In Catholicism we die for Christ but we also know that He loves each and everyone of us and loves each dearly. Somehow, all that is lost in the ideology that manifest the - all in one .

Of course, in the eschaton, they will be populated with people with glorified bodies – that is, they will have the property of ‘location’.

I looked this one up as I know it more as Judgement Day"

“divinely ordained climax of history,” 1935, coined by Protestant theologian Charles Harold Dodd (1884-1973) from Greek eskhaton, neuter of eskhatos
dictionary.reference.com/browse/eschaton

 

[fred_conty]

Yes, you are right, Gorgias. I guess I was being some what sarcastic or trying to denigrade the understanding - which seems to be very common and popular in the western world. Your presentation is correct and clear, regarding the understanding of Catholics who do not believe or understand ‘hell’ as being a ‘place’. I was raised with the understanding which I still maintain of ‘hell’ being a ‘place’ - until I learn otherwise but, for now, I have not been provided with sufficient information to consider that ‘hell’ is not a ‘place’ (and of course, I do not only mean in this thread - I have researched the topic and read plenty).

The whole idea of ‘hell’ merely being ‘separation from God’ as the understanding goes of those who do not believe or understand ‘hell’ as being a ‘place’; just brings to mind the understanding of the Quakers and other cults which at least from my limited exposer to their beliefs, understand that the individuals become one - all in one. Kind of like drops of water united with the sea which become one with the sea. It’s not only an incorrect understanding but it is sad and tragic( kind of spooky thinking). In Catholicism we die for Christ but we also know that He loves each and everyone of us and loves each dearly. Somehow, all that is lost in the ideology that manifest the - all in one .

I looked this one up as I know it more as Judgement Day"

“divinely ordained climax of history,” 1935, coined by Protestant theologian Charles Harold Dodd (1884-1973) from Greek eskhaton, neuter of eskhatos
dictionary.reference.com/browse/eschaton

If hell is a physical place, then how could the angels who fell, and who are pure spirits, be contained by a physical place?

If anyone wishes to think it is a place, its ok.

But I find that it contradicts what the angels are since they do not have bodies and therefore cannot be gathered in one physical place.

I think it is more like St. John said of Judas, “He went to his own place.” Meaning taking a position wherever he belongs in the order of things.

But anyone is free to say they believe in a physical place called hell. So I don’t deny anyone their right to say this, but only saying it doesn’t seem to square up.

 

[PJM]

=fred conty;13220891]If hell is a physical place, then how could the angels who fell, and who are pure spirits, be contained by a physical place?

If anyone wishes to think it is a place, its ok.

But I find that it contradicts what the angels are since they do not have bodies and therefore cannot be gathered in one physical place.

I think it is more like St. John said of Judas, “He went to his own place.” Meaning taking a position wherever he belongs in the order of things.

But anyone is free to say they believe in a physical place called hell. So I don’t deny anyone their right to say this, but only saying it doesn’t seem to square up.

Hell my friends is NOT a physical sense; it is howsoever a PLACE of Eternal torment and suffering; primarily due to granted knowledge to that they will NEVER be in the Presence of God: the Beatific Vision.

Also of note:

When we die our mortal bodies return to dust:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return

What remains is what makes man; and ONLY humanity, "like our God: as promised in Gen. 1: 26-27

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them

Is our Soul. to which is permanently attached our minds, intellect and freewill:thumbsup:

It is our “spiritual -other-self” that remains to be judged until the “Final Judgment” when our bodies will be GLORIFIED as was Christ Risen Body; and spend Eternity in Hell or Heaven

God Bless you,

Patrick