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dvdjs
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Fighting for the institution of slavery and calling out about despotism l at home. A huge blind spot there.
Aggressive abroad? What are our territorial conquests? Non-zero, but rather limited.
When were confederate monuments erected and why?
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Aggressive abroad? What are our territorial conquests? Non-zero, but rather limited.
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dvdjs
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No the guilt card is about legacy. This is about current disempathy.
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exnihilo
Guest
It depends on the descendant. Some former slaves, as detailed in the Slave Narratives, said they had it better under slavery. Slavery ended, but suddenly a large population of largely uneducated slaves was released. They were used as tools by the occupying army to degrade the White population. They, on account of their race, were not thought of any more fondly by the occupiers. Whatever would have happened had slavery ended another way the way it did end led to greater resentment between the races. And the slaves as much as the White southerners now lived in a region devastated by an invading army that burned whole cities.
And lest you persist in thinking this is a ‘southern’ problem remember that the New Yorkers killed Blacks in their draft riots. These same New Yorkers were still not welcoming a century later.
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dvdjs
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presumably you do see the huge flaw in Mencken’s analysis of Lincoln’s words.
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FirstFiveEighth
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Yes, it is a good question, on what basis do you justify one part of the country invading neighboring states with an army.
If California cedes from the union and the US Army invades California and burns San Francisco and Los Angeles to the ground in order to keep it, who is the aggressor, the US or California? Is it an act of war for the people of California to take up arms in defense of their home, or is it an act of war to move an armed force into another territory with the express purpose of subjugating and overthrowing its democratically elected government?
First Manassas, the opening battle of the Civil War, was fought in Virginia as the federal army marched to capture Richmond and the confederate army moved to intercept it. The Union constantly made attempts to capture that city. They forcibly occupied the border states of Missouri and Kentucky as they wished to remain neutral and were sympathetic to the south. People in these states and in the states more committed to the union were jailed for disagreeing with the war. The president had judges arrested for challenging his suspense of habeas corpus.
So in what way is fighting a defensive battle on your home soil an act of war?
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exnihilo
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The Union had slavery too. Why do you persist in saying the CSA was fighting for slavery when the opponents had it too? In fact the Union Congress passed an amendment to forever preserve slavery just prior to the war. So your claim the CSA was fighting to persevere an institution the Union Congress agreed to preserve is strange.
I think aggressive abroad. I’d count the presence of US military bases the world over as proof of conquest. Traditionally a military base would suffice as evidence of occupation. I mean the US doesn’t have foreign army bases on its soil does it?
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GKC
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Using the word treason in a non-legal sense, of course.
The Jackson quote was a slightly truncated sentence, on the village of Lexington, Virginia:
“Of all places…this little village is the most beautiful”.
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GKC
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That, apparently, would be either a mug, or, possibly a book.
Oh. Wait.You were referring to a Jackson quote. The actual one is given above, but nothing wrong with that one, either
I’m looking for a mug with the inscription “Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn”.
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exnihilo
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The Irish were also targets in the New York Riots. They also sometimes had worse lives than slaves. An observer in New Orleans was surprised to find Irishmen doing the dangerous work of loading cargo ships while the slaves did easier work. Someone explained to the man that they wouldn’t want to risk a slave’s live, but a laborer’s life they would. They were easily replaced.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
There existed slaves in the North. A few of them. But the economy of the North was not nearly so dependent on slave labor as the plantations of South. The number of slaves in the North was just not comparable. The KKK was born in the South. The majority of the lynchings were in the South. There was a reason why slaves dreamed of going North to escape. I don’t think any slaves in the North dreamed of escaping to the South.
As we consider the effects of these confederate monuments when looked upon by the descendants of those slaves, finer points of an inconsequential law passed by Congress to preserve slavery are not nearly as significant as the symbolic meaning these statues have come to have.
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mary_bobo
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GKC
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Up the Irish!.
I personally would love to collect small examples of Augustus Saint-Gaudens’ work, for around the house. Many of them.
But I can’t afford it.
I personally would love to collect small examples of Augustus Saint-Gaudens’ work, for around the house. Many of them.
But I can’t afford it.
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GKC
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He had a nice touch with gold coins.
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ucfengr
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If California leaves the United States, becoming a separate country and subsequently invades Oregon, who is it committing treason against? The United States? How can that be when California is no longer a member of the United States? In the 19th Century, very few people of the US thought in national terms. They thought of the US as an association of sovereign states. And if you look at the pre-war military, this makes perfect sense. The national military was a very small force, only about 16,000 total. Most of the military strength was in local and state militias. If you were in the militia, you served with people you’d grown up with. The company commander was likely the son of a local planter, or maybe a local politician. The regimental commander was likely a local planter or business owner who financed much of the regiment out of his own pocket. There was no national consciousnesses. Your first loyalty was to your home and family, not the nation. This really didn’t change until after World War 2.
I would also note that the Confederate States were the invaded, not the invaders. The US attempted to march 40,000 troops through Mannassas in an attempt to seize Richmond. I would also note that on the subsequent occasions when the Confederates did march North, it was in an attempt to force recognition of their country by the US, not an attempt to add Pennsylvania or New York to the Confederacy.
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exnihilo
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So it doesn’t matter that the Union had slavery since it had less? What amount of slavery is acceptable or moral? I guess the amount that that Union had.
The KKK was born in the South, but it was at its peak when it was based in Indiana and people from all over the country were members.
Yes, there were more lynchings in the South. The South had more Blacks and they were often the target of racism throughout the US. And of course the statistics don’t include the period of the NYC draft riots where many Blacks were lynched. Nor does it include statistics from states like Massachusetts which had a law punishing non resident Blacks who stayed in the state by flogging. Slaves dreamed of escaping slavery. However they were often just as unwelcome up North.
So facts don’t matter only feelings?
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GKC
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A double handful of Saint Gaudens Double Eagles will do it for me.
Not that your statue isn’t neat looking. I often wondered what Cuchulainn looked like.
Not that your statue isn’t neat looking. I often wondered what Cuchulainn looked like.
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GKC
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Where Earth received an honored guest.
I bet I can find a mug with Lovecraftian words at the next large con I attend.
I bet I can find a mug with Lovecraftian words at the next large con I attend.
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GKC
Guest
Leave me my illusions. The world is disdainful of them.
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