When were confederate monuments erected and why?
- Thread starter LeafByNiggle
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I don’t remember any civil rights leaders speaking out against the Confederate monuments, but I was a teenager at the time and certainly didn’t follow all the news of the day.
I do think there are more important problems to be solving right now, but I figure this is all being orchestrated somehow by people behind the scenes in another attempt to create chaos and mayhem.
I think they are tired of talking about collusion and Russia.
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petra22
Guest
On a similar note and not because of anything I have read or heard… is this racial unrest the type of thing that Jeremiah Wright preached in his church? You know, or maybe have heard how he kept saying G-- Damn America… Was it for this type of thing like Civil War Statues??? Just wondering…
If it is I just wanted to say sorry that the statues are so offensive and no person should feel less American because of the color of their skin…
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exnihilo
Guest
How does that make sense? The CSA didn’t need to fight to preserve slavery. They already had it and it wasn’t going to end immediately. They needed to fight to preserve their independence.
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poche
Guest
From Pope Pius XI;
- Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.
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abucs
Guest
There is a continuity Leaf. The Republican Party was the party formed to oppose slavery and government legislating according to race.
They fought a war in opposition to this.
The Republican Party still stands for that.
It is the Democratic Party that has always been the Party of identity politics. The fact that their race preference has changed doesn’t change that fact.
Today’s talk of white privilege and white guilt and affirmative action and race based quotas etc is still separation, demonisation and government legislation by race.
It is divisive, unfair and authoritarian and the Republicans are still opposed to it.
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FirstFiveEighth
Guest
The poster implied that the majority of civil war statues were erected by “nobody” groups like Daughters of the Confederate Veterans “100yrs” after the fact and had nothing to do with the actual veterans. I was pointing out that this has virtually no connection to the truth, as the majority of the statues were erected in the lifetime of veterans and were sponsored by groups such as Daughters of Confederate Veterans who were, unsurprisingly, daughters of confederate veterans. What this has to do with one particular statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, I don’t know. Certainly these groups, like the majority of the US population at the time, believed in racial nonsense like white supremacy. People are products of their times, and today that is no longer the case.
For example, a good friend of mine received the Robert E. Lee Leadership Award as one of the top cadets in his class. It was presented along with a pretty sweet saber, by the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization. My friend is a black man. I am sure this will be waved away as a “token” anecdote. Would this have happened before 1964? I doubt it. But people change and organizations are not tied to the ideology of past members when that ideology is not a founding principle of the organization. The KKK was and is such a racist organization. The Sons and Daughters of Confederate Veterans are not implicitly racist.
And for the record, these neo-nazi, white supremists are dispicable people. They blame whatever problems they have on other people on the basis of race. It is sad. Luckily they are a minuscule part of the population. We should not let them frame the conversation or our history.
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FirstFiveEighth
Guest
Opposition to the Vietnam memorial was based on its design, not by “CSA types”, whatever that means. Many people felt a solid black wall was nihilistic and did not honor the dead as a more traditional memorial would. The White House very nearly revoked the permit. After it was built, people changed their minds and felt it was a worthy remembrance. The concern was that the memorial would paint them as oppressors, not patriots.
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RyanBlack
Guest
Including independence concerning slavery. Their documents tell us they were established for the purpose of maintaining slavery. I see no reason not to believe that.
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FirstFiveEighth
Guest
I’d also like to say that I don’t think it is particularly helpful to blame modern democrats for slavery and racism of the past. The two major parties have changed pretty substantially in the last 150yrs. The Republicans of 1850-1920s were a big business, urban, elite, industrialized, “northern” party centered around increasing the trade monopoly of northern industry. They wanted a powerful government to project these goals. They routinely pursued policies that were beneficial to industrial states but detrimental to agricultural states. The democrats of 1820-1900 were agricultural, rural, and typically wanted powerful states and a weak federal government. This went back to the anti-federalist vs federalist days of the early Republic and the Articles of Confederation. They pursued policies benefitting agricultural output and export.
Today the Republicans are the predominantly rural party that advocates limited government and stronger states. The democrats are the party of the urban and the elite and big government programs. Both support different types of big business.
The Republican Party today is not the Republican Party of Lincoln or Thaddeus Stephens. And today’s Democratic Party is not the party of Jefferson Davis or George Wallace. Heck, the Democratic Party of today isn’t even the same party it was in 1963 and JFK. We cannot sit here today and say “democrats support racism and slavery” or “Republicans hate the little man”. The times have changed and so have the parties, regardless of individuals who haven’t moved past the Dixie-crats or the Hoover/Rockefeller Republicans.
Today the Republicans are the predominantly rural party that advocates limited government and stronger states. The democrats are the party of the urban and the elite and big government programs. Both support different types of big business.
The Republican Party today is not the Republican Party of Lincoln or Thaddeus Stephens. And today’s Democratic Party is not the party of Jefferson Davis or George Wallace. Heck, the Democratic Party of today isn’t even the same party it was in 1963 and JFK. We cannot sit here today and say “democrats support racism and slavery” or “Republicans hate the little man”. The times have changed and so have the parties, regardless of individuals who haven’t moved past the Dixie-crats or the Hoover/Rockefeller Republicans.
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poche
Guest
It is hateful because there is a new target group for your hatred.
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abucs
Guest
I agree with you but Democrats cannot continue to play the deplorable card and not be challenged. You can’t have even moderates like Joe Biden who say Republicans ‘will have y’all back in chains’ when addressing a black audience.
You also cannot have Democrats playing the virtue signalling game of wanting ‘monuments of hate’ being torn down without admitting it was them that put them up and then failing to not only ask forgiveness but quite a few explanations.
Democrats also have some soul searching to do with their “identity politics equality agenda” which bases law on interpretations of history and race without coming clean on the fact that it was their party that needs to do the apologising for such things.
To lead people to believe it is the other ‘deplorable’ party that are to blame is slanderous and cowardly. It malevolently perpetuates division.
Millions of poor white people flocked to the east coast of America because giant steps forward in technology and mortality rates allowed them to do so. Many probably did not even know black people existed. As you say, they were part of a group who joined the Republican Party and fought against slavery. In no shape and form are these people to blame for slavery. In no shape and form do they owe black Americans anything above what they owe other Americans. In fact it is a great unsung story of what these poor whites did. A story that cannot be told by political correctness.
For the Democratic Party, who were the party of slavery to still be using divisive race politics to argue they are not only worthy of praise, but shameful disdain is, well, really deplorable.
The Inconvenient Truth about the Democratic Party.
The South and Slavery
The Fascist Left of Hitler’s Nazis
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
You are cherry-picking issues dear to you and stretching points to make this point. The argument reminds me of Harold Hill’s argument against pool in the Music Man.
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abucs
Guest
and you are ignoring facts without proper rebuttal.
To say that the Republican Party was founded to oppose slavery and government legislation based on race is a fact.
To state that they still believe this core doctrine and give examples of such is fact.
This shows continuity.
The Democratic Party needs to admit their past and realise how others see them and reflect on the division of identity politics that they are still perpetuating today.
Citizens should be treated by government the same, regardless of race.
Content of one’s character and not the colour of ones skin etc.
To say that the Republican Party was founded to oppose slavery and government legislation based on race is a fact.
To state that they still believe this core doctrine and give examples of such is fact.
This shows continuity.
The Democratic Party needs to admit their past and realise how others see them and reflect on the division of identity politics that they are still perpetuating today.
Citizens should be treated by government the same, regardless of race.
Content of one’s character and not the colour of ones skin etc.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
That car was only played once, and the one who played it realized her mistake and apologized almost immediately.
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jtauke
Guest
So you believe:
1,There is political continuity for US political parties from pre civil war era to now.
- That current democrats are somehow culpable for the actions of Southern Democrats and Dixiecrats.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
This is a thread about confederate monuments, not a place for drawn out general discussions about political parties.
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cthulhubryan
Guest
I believe he was an “Imperial Wizard” or some such rank. Yet he became “The conscience of the senate” psha.
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abucs
Guest
No Leaf, that card has been played so many times that it has been self internalised by Democrats.
Such thinking is in their hearts. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny but such demonization perpetuates division and retards open conversation.
It is not left wing speakers that are being shut out and shouted down at university gatherings. Such a twisted belief that Republicans are Deplorables and a lack of self examination lies at the heart of the current Trump Derangement Syndrome.
The idea that the Republican President gives succour to the Ku Klux Klan is the latest flight from reality caused by such derangement.
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jtauke
Guest
How many times does it need to be repeated.
The democrat party of today shares little in any ideological ground with civil war democrats or later Dixiecrats.
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