When will the insanity end?

[Cathdefender]

I think one of the first things to do to end the insanity is to stop claiming that there are 40,000 denominations of Protestantism. We will not have much success reaching out to Protestants if we spread exaggerations about them.

My husband did some research and found the original source of the “32,000 denominations” figure, and the way that figure was arrived at is pretty dicey. Basically what they did was take all the denominations in each COUNTRY and call them a separate denomination. So in this particular “study,” there are thousands of different Catholic denominations, because the Catholic Church of the U.S.A. is a different “denomination” than the Catholic Church of Canada or Kenya or Deutschland, etc.

You see–it’s twisting the facts around to arrive at an incorrect conclusion.

Another thing that some statistics do is consider each non-denominational and home church a separate “denomination.” I suppose there is a good case for doing this, but I personally think it’s kind of pushing it. A lot of the non-denominational ecclesial bodies and home churches only last a short time; they are basically split-offs from an established denomination, and they believe all the same things that the established denomination believes–they just want to be autonomous (free of the denominational authority). They really aren’t separate denominations, just separate people.

According to several Protestant stats, there are anywhere from 80 to 300 true denominations. Now this is still a horrible, shocking statistic, not at all what Jesus meant when he prayed the prayer for “that they might be one” recorded in John 17! 300 “true churches” of Jesus Christ?! Yikes!

You aren’t hurting your case against divisions in the Church to quote genuine statistics about Protestant denoms rather than exaggerations.

The Catholic church is NOT a denomination so stop stating that. That is something Protestants made up to make excuses for their own 30,000 denominations. And it isn’t exaggerations. It’s true.

 

[embertx3]

I disagree that the church is to blame but the individual that misrepresented the church is to blame. The church has been full of sinners then, now and tomorrow. If the church is to blame then IMO that is pointing a finger to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just my two cents. God bless

 

[Swan]

That is hardly any proof at all…that line is ridiculous. The fact is that if the church has stood IN SPITE of it’s hardships, should prove just the opposite of what you just said. What about the Jews today who are defaming the NT and Jesus Christ? Does that prove there is no God? Ridiculous. BTW, the Catholic church has never defamed Jesus Christ but DEFENDED him right from the beginning, until the end of time, just as Jesus said.
Whatever the Catholic church did for it’s faith, and to protect the holy word of God, to protect the bible and the successors of 265 popes as of today, I would do the same. God Bless holy mother church.

You are confusing the issue - just because the institution has remained it does not logically follow that Jesus has remained with the institution. The institutional church is a man made hierarchy based on wordly power - it is that wordly power that has enabled it to continue, in the opinion of many including myself. Your belief that this is not the case is based on faith and is purely subjective.

 

[Eden]

Oh - about those indulgences thingys…
Cathdefender said “Indulgences were a great aid to true devotion, fostering a spirit of prayer and sacrifice in the name of Christ, not just for one’s own benefit, but for all the faithful.” I am sure selling them as a way to raise funds for the Church or Crown or to escape punishment for sins was really looked on favorably by God. My kids go to a wonderful Catholic school - but I sure hope they are not learning this stuff!!

God Bless!

Myths about Indulgences:

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb2.asp

Indulgences still exist:

vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_pro_20000129_indulgence_en.html

** Decree according to which special Indulgences on the occasion of the 2000th anniversary of the birth of St Paul the Apostle (May 10, 2008)**** **

http://www.vatican.va/latest/latest_en.htm

 

[R_not]

I disagree that the church is to blame but the individual that misrepresented the church is to blame. The church has been full of sinners then, now and tomorrow. If the church is to blame then IMO that is pointing a finger to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Just my two cents. God bless

Then we can agree to disagree. A lot of the clergy misused the indulgences to the detriment of the common man - who could not afford such things.

There were many Popes who were not ‘up and up’ throughout history. Sorry, but it is true. And even more so - there are a lot of other clergy members who were bad also. Their primary concern was the Kings and their courts rather than the rest of humanity.

We saw an example of problems in that area with the pediphile priests that are recent in our history. Many Bishops ignored the parents - some didn’t even want to see the parents - and they let priests sit in parishes continue to abuse children. Many should have been fired - yes, fired. Priests and Bishops - and possibly some even higher up - I am not sure how far the parents were trying to go to see someone about the problems. They did right to go to the law! And many of those Bishops still sit in their same positions - the Pope should have fired them!

 

[R_not]

You are confusing the issue - just because the institution has remained it does not logically follow that Jesus has remained with the institution. The institutional church is a man made hierarchy based on wordly power - it is that wordly power that has enabled it to continue, in the opinion of many including myself. Your belief that this is not the case is based on faith and is purely subjective.

I think we need to remember that many mistakes have been made but that doesn’t mean that the religion is not valid. I believe in spite of many bad things that have been done. I go to the base teachings of Jesus Christ for that belief.

I am not a Protestant - and cannot agree with them on way too many issues. The Sacraments being #1. I believe in the Sacraments and want them in my life. I do not believe that communion, etc are anything unless a consecrated Priest administers them.

 

[R_not]

Myths about Indulgences:

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb2.asp

Indulgences still exist:

vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_pro_20000129_indulgence_en.html

** Decree according to which special Indulgences on the occasion of the 2000th anniversary of the birth of St Paul the Apostle (May 10, 2008)**** **

http://www.vatican.va/latest/latest_en.htm

Ok, thanks - I wasn’t too sure about them. I ignore the whole indulgence thing anyway. Call me bad - I don’t really care. I go to confession and that is that. If I am told to do 5 Hail Marys (I am just giving an example) I usually do as many as I want to do - and more. The whole thing is to have the priest absolve me of my sins.

 

[Swan]

I think we need to remember that many mistakes have been made but that doesn’t mean that the religion is not valid. I believe in spite of many bad things that have been done. I go to the base teachings of Jesus Christ for that belief.

I am not a Protestant - and cannot agree with them on way too many issues. The Sacraments being #1. I believe in the Sacraments and want them in my life. I do not believe that communion, etc are anything unless a consecrated Priest administers them.

I did not mean to suggest that the religion was not valid. Instead I was saying that the idea that it was the guidance of God in an in fallible sense logically follows from the mere fact of its existence. I was not saying that there is no goodness there, no truth at all. I’ve been both a Catholic and a Protestant. I converted to RC when I was about 30. However, I am simply unable to accept the infallibility argument at all and have a real problem with the “one true chruch founded by Christ and the fact that the insitution still exists is proof of that claim” - it is nothing of the sort, IMO - which was the point of my post.

Reading the various posts here in the past hour of so has made me think about my reasons for now being a “nothing specific” when it comes to religion. While there are many really good folks on both sides, the constant bickering, name calling, etc. seem to counter to what Jesus was all about that it is no wonder to me that many folks chose not to be “Christians”. There are excuses for perseucutions, denunciations and villifications on both sides, it’s really sickening. I see so little true humility and compassion that I have come to the conclusion that the term “Christian” is used very loosely and I think of Jesus’s warning “I do not know you”. NOTE: I am not attacking any particular poster(s), this is just a generalization and overall impression.

 

[R_not]

I did not mean to suggest that the religion was not valid. Instead I was saying that the idea that it was the guidance of God in an in fallible sense logically follows from the mere fact of its existence. I was not saying that there is no goodness there, no truth at all. I’ve been both a Catholic and a Protestant. I converted to RC when I was about 30. However, I am simply unable to accept the infallibility argument at all and have a real problem with the “one true chruch founded by Christ and the fact that the insitution still exists is proof of that claim” - it is nothing of the sort, IMO - which was the point of my post.

Reading the various posts here in the past hour of so has made me think about my reasons for now being a “nothing specific” when it comes to religion. While there are many really good folks on both sides, the constant bickering, name calling, etc. seem to counter to what Jesus was all about that it is no wonder to me that many folks chose not to be “Christians”. There are excuses for perseucutions, denunciations and villifications on both sides, it’s really sickening. I see so little true humility and compassion that I have come to the conclusion that the term “Christian” is used very loosely and I think of Jesus’s warning “I do not know you”. NOTE: I am not attacking any particular poster(s), this is just a generalization and overall impression.

I think people are people.

I have writtin this many times (but it is usually when I am refering to the teaching of islam vs Christianity) - go to the basic teachings, to Christ’s words.

And then - allow people to be people. Deal with it - you will never find perfection no matter what media, no matter where, on this earth. Sometimes people are tired, sometimes they are this or that - but to pass judgements on them, well you are doing what you are accusing others of doing.

Just go with the flow. If it is a bad day and people seem to be in an off mood - logoff and post another day if you don’t feel like dealing with that.

I guess I can bring that attitude into why I am not so bothered by others of other denominations of Christianity. I think that most of them are trying their best to find the correct path. So be it. I will discuss with them whenever they want to and when they bring up stuff like we worship statues, or pray to Mary as if she is God (just a few examples) I will tell them what we really do instead of letting them keep on believing rumors that are stupid.

So, when will the insanity end? When we die. Until then we are all susceptible to insanity and other’s insanity. We just have to deal with it.

 

[Annie_B]

Who is that guy? He’s kind of cute! (and of course someone will now tell me he’s gay, right?

Yep - he’s gay…Doogie Howser MD

 

[Annie_B]

The insanity will not end until Jesus comes again.

Annie

 

[strngrnrth]

The insanity will not end until Jesus comes again.

Annie

But it may lessen some if we work on it. It’s just hard to know what to say when you want unity but never if it means giving up even a little truth.
I’m still struggling to figure out what to think of the two churches I was in in the past – how much I learned there that’s worth retaining and how much was mistaken. I have mixed feelings about a lot of things to do with religion. But my faith is solid. It’s hard to negotiate the world of divisions I barely comprehend. Sometimes it seems so obvious we’re all sisters and brothers after all, and other times I’m cynical or angry toward some church or another. There are so many people saying so many things about so many people and it’s hard to find out who’s telling the truth. Insanity can be a result of fatigue. But I think we can figure some of it out. I hope so.

 

[Steadfast]

How is this nonsense any different than:

“I think Catholics worship statues and I would like you to explain why!”

lol

 

[Syele]

I think one of the first things to do to end the insanity is to stop claiming that there are 40,000 denominations of Protestantism. We will not have much success reaching out to Protestants if we spread exaggerations about them.

…

According to several Protestant stats, there are anywhere from 80 to 300 true denominations. Now this is still a horrible, shocking statistic, not at all what Jesus meant when he prayed the prayer for “that they might be one” recorded in John 17! 300 “true churches” of Jesus Christ?! Yikes!

You aren’t hurting your case against divisions in the Church to quote genuine statistics about Protestant denoms rather than exaggerations.

Thanks for trying to be a voice of reason Cat, but I think the insanity already went off the deep end.

How is this nonsense any different than:

“I think Catholics worship statues and I would like you to explain why!”

lol

It isn’t

 

[Swan]

I think people are people.

I have writtin this many times (but it is usually when I am refering to the teaching of islam vs Christianity) - go to the basic teachings, to Christ’s words.

And then - allow people to be people. Deal with it - you will never find perfection no matter what media, no matter where, on this earth. Sometimes people are tired, sometimes they are this or that - but to pass judgements on them, well you are doing what you are accusing others of doing.

Just go with the flow. If it is a bad day and people seem to be in an off mood - logoff and post another day if you don’t feel like dealing with that.

I guess I can bring that attitude into why I am not so bothered by others of other denominations of Christianity. I think that most of them are trying their best to find the correct path. So be it. I will discuss with them whenever they want to and when they bring up stuff like we worship statues, or pray to Mary as if she is God (just a few examples) I will tell them what we really do instead of letting them keep on believing rumors that are stupid.

So, when will the insanity end? When we die. Until then we are all susceptible to insanity and other’s insanity. We just have to deal with it.

I am not passing judgement on anyone and did not mean to imply differently. I was simply commenting on behavior that upsets and why. And yes we all have bad days, as I know all too well from personal experience. I have days when I’m angry and would love to lash out and, sadly, somtimes I do. But some folks have such deeply entrenched ideas and are so eager to prove others wrong that this type of behavior becomes their norm. I think it is a combination of pride and insecurity but that it neither here nor there. Religion can bring out the best and worst in people (like politics), which is one of the reasons I prefer spirituality - it is less combative by its very nature and as such, IMO, actually brings us closer to God. Again, I’m not being judgmental only making observations.

 

[R_not]

I am not passing judgement on anyone and did not mean to imply differently. I was simply commenting on behavior that upsets and why. And yes we all have bad days, as I know all too well from personal experience. I have days when I’m angry and would love to lash out and, sadly, somtimes I do. But some folks have such deeply entrenched ideas and are so eager to prove others wrong that this type of behavior becomes their norm. I think it is a combination of pride and insecurity but that it neither here nor there. Religion can bring out the best and worst in people (like politics), which is one of the reasons I prefer spirituality - it is less combative by its very nature and as such, IMO, actually brings us closer to God. Again, I’m not being judgmental only making observations.

I get pretty entrenched when I discuss islam. Since there are so many appeasers to it - it can get heated. The proof of what it is is overwhelming vs those who worry about its image.

I look at it as ‘passionate’.

Anyway - good night, sweet dreams - I am hopping out of here.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Whether the popes were corrupt, whether anything has happened in the church at all (most of the stuff you hear is grossly overestimated anyway), It is STILL the church that Jesus Christ founded. NO MATTER WHAT you say and NO MATTER WHAT your negativity is, the Catholic church has stood for 2,000 years.

NO MATTER WHAT.

The Japanese empire is older than the Papacy - IIRC it began about 40 BC or so. There were Pharaohs from about 2900 to 342 BC - which is over 2500 years.​

The CC has been around, at most, for no longer than 1970+ years. Which is a long time, but not as long as some polities.

Corruption in the Church can’t be shrugged off - for a very simple reason: the God of Judaism & Christianity is an ethical God, a God who demands righteousness from those who claim to belong to Him. That the God of Judaism is consistently an ethical deity, is one of the things that sets Israelite religion apart from any other in antiquity. That He is ethical is not a luxury which can be dispensed with - it is central to Who He is. And unless He has changed, or unless the God of Catholicism is not the God of the Prophets & the NT, He is as ethical as ever.

The Church is Christ’s, not ours or any creature’s. It must therefore have His values, His Gospel, the purpose that He gave it, & the Mind that was in Him. It cannot be used to evade His Will - that is to turn it against the only reason for its existence, that is, against Him. To make of it “a kingdom of this world”, with the values of this world rather than His, is to pervert & degrade it. So it cannot presume upon its foundation by Christ, or act as though it were not entirely subject to Him: the Jews did that, & God raised up Nebuchadnezzar to punish them for rebelling against their God. Men may be overawed by numbers - is God ?

 

[inJESUS]

I forget where I read it or who said it, but recently I was reading an article online, and what the author said impacted me.

He said that the fact that the church was able to do some of the horrible things they did, is prooof enough that is it not the true religion. Because if it was the true religion, God would never have permitted it to defame His Name in such a way.

the fact that Jews worshipped a calf instead of God does not mean God did not choose them. Actually, there is a big problem if you apply this reasoning to the shortcomings of Israel despite their belief in God. God chooses us, yet we are humans. God makes a covenant, yet we are humans. God establishes His Church, yet we are humans.

 

[Sepharad]

Wow - we must of forgot to tell the Jews, the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and various other non-Christian/Catholic faiths that they were once Catholic … and should have remained that way. I’ll pass on that flavor of Kool-Aid - thanks.

Oh - about those indulgences thingys…
Cathdefender said “Indulgences were a great aid to true devotion, fostering a spirit of prayer and sacrifice in the name of Christ, not just for one’s own benefit, but for all the faithful.” I am sure selling them as a way to raise funds for the Church or Crown or to escape punishment for sins was really looked on favorably by God. My kids go to a wonderful Catholic school - but I sure hope they are not learning this stuff!!

God Bless!

Cathdefender evidently has a Eurocentric point of view when it comes to religious history.

 

[Cathdefender]

You are confusing the issue - just because the institution has remained it does not logically follow that Jesus has remained with the institution. The institutional church is a man made hierarchy based on wordly power - it is that wordly power that has enabled it to continue, in the opinion of many including myself. Your belief that this is not the case is based on faith and is purely subjective.

No, you are wrong. every denomination, every off-shoot from Catholicism is man made. The Catholic church is NOT man made unless you count Jesus as the man.