When will the insanity end?

[Lil_Cat]

What about taking a step back and reading what has been said as someone who isn’t Catholic? I wonder how many would say some of the things that are posted here to someone in real life? I realize since this is an internet forum, its easy to type something and not think about how people are going to take it.

This is what gets me. Why does it matter what Non-C’s think about the CC? You know the truth, and either you believe that Jesus built the church on Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail or you don’t. It’s really surprisingly simple.

Oh, and if anyone has a problem with what people are saying against the CC (whether out of spite or genuine confusion about a teaching) then maybe its time to get out of the Non-C forum until charity can come back into these conversations.

 

[ac_claire]

I too think the charge of bigotry misses the mark.

It’s never called for to be uncharitiable or prideful. In something like online apologetics, however, these are behaviors. If you are even spending any kind of meaningful time doing apologetics, then you must believe that you are defending and promoting the Truth, right? How can you do this halfway? How can you compromise with plain and simple heresy?

You can call heresies misguided, or half-truths, “hazy logic,” “a different point of view,” “simply a new perspective” or outright lies. Either way they are what they are. If it’s not true then it’s a deception, and it wounds the Body of Christ.

The nature of Christianity is that it is objectively true. Jesus Christ is Truth. How else can one discuss it, other than stating that it is true? Can you be 100% honest and work with the courage of your convictions and still be respectful and humble to those you are talking with? I think you can. It is sometimes difficult, so it’s something I pray about and advise other amateur apologists to do the same.

 

[Always_For_Him]

So, Lil Cat,
You are saying that if people went into a forum of your religion and said the all the same “wrong” things about your religion, you wouldn’t get irritated? It isn’t like this is new. You couldn’t possibly know the extent of the untruths that I am talking about. The fact of the matter is that everything I wrote is true. If you don’t like it, I am sorry. Could it have been written more nicely? Sure. Did I show irritatio? Sure. That isn’t necessarily uncharitable and most certainly isn’t bigotry. Lack of understanding, judging and name calling isn’t charitable either.

Despite an apology and two attempts trying to explain where I was coming from, you call me uncharitable and mention that I should leave the forum. That is uncharitable.

I and other Catholics that I know have heard far more worse than I have written here. Worse has been written by non-C’s on different threads on this forum. I am not condoning those posts or condoning being uncharitable. Yes, you are right, it is easy to type something on an internet forum and not think about how people are going to take it. That said, I don’t believe that the I was being uncharitable, just very open with my irritation and annoyance of continued false statements and untruths. Let’s hope that if the situations were reversed, and your faith was getting pummelled on your own forum, you would be as patient and understanding as you are requiring me to be. But, don’t think that anyone needs to roll over and let those kinds of untruths continue to be spread no matter whose religion is being attacked.

That said, I have listened and understand that I need to be careful how I say things, even if I feel they are true. So, patience and understanding of why non-C’s believe the things they believe about Catholocism is a virtue that I obviously need to work on. I only ask that every non-C remember that they need to offer that same courtesy.

 

[Always_For_Him]

ac claire,

Thank you for your understanding of my post and explanation of how difficult it is to state truths in defense of the negative, wrong, untrue statements regarding the Catholic Church and not do it half way without offending someone. Truth is the truth whether those who read it believe it or not or like it or not. I think it is important for people to be honest with themselves as to how they would probably behave if over and over again, the untrue statements keep getting perpetuated, and they have to keep trying nicely to defend. At some point, you just state the truth without the frills because trying to say things nicely means not saying something that needs to be said to properly address the issue. I have some growing to do in that area, and I will continue to try. Anyway, ac claire, you said it correctly, “You can’t compromise with plain and simple heresy.” Apologetics is a tough thing to attempt. People are going to be offended. I see it on pretty much every thread that I read. Non-C’s are not going to like hearing our defenses because it puts their religion/beliefs in a negative light in regards to the things that are being defended. Not liking it and calling someone a bigot because you don’t want to learn or see the truth in it, is much different than not liking it and but yet trying to see if there could be any truth to it.

 

[Lil_Cat]

I was speaking about people in general, but if it was taken personally, there’s not much I can do about it. Just because I happened to post after you doesn’t always mean it is directed at you. It was more at the OP for constantly starting threads that put Non-C’s at a disadvantage (which is why I try to stay away from Non-C). I still stand by my comment that either you believe what Jesus said or you don’t. Yes, defending your faith is important, but at what expense? You are in control of you, not of what anyone else says.

Yes, if there was a forum for what I believe I would get irritated, but I would remove myself or control what I said. You never know what people are going to be touched and encouraged or discouraged by. I have seen PLENTY of Catholics misrepresent what I believe. It goes both ways. I have been “lurking” on these forums for 2-3 hours a days since March, so I have seen my share of misrepresentations of what I as a “Protestant” believe.

BTW, I didn’t tell you to get off this forum. I made it clear that if anyone has a problem being charitable, maybe the most beneficial thing would be to take a breather from the Non-C forum, not the CA forum. If I meant Always_For_Him, I would have said Always_For_Him. Why would I knowingly contribute to the uncharitableness that I disagreed with (especially in the same post)? I am sorry if it came off like that as it was not my intent.

 

[embertx3]

ac claire,

Thank you for your understanding of my post and explanation of how difficult it is to state truths in defense of the negative, wrong, untrue statements regarding the Catholic Church and not do it half way without offending someone. Truth is the truth whether those who read it believe it or not or like it or not. I think it is important for people to be honest with themselves as to how they would probably behave if over and over again, the untrue statements keep getting perpetuated, and they have to keep trying nicely to defend. At some point, you just state the truth without the frills because trying to say things nicely means not saying something that needs to be said to properly address the issue. I have some growing to do in that area, and I will continue to try. Anyway, ac claire, you said it correctly, “You can’t compromise with plain and simple heresy.” Apologetics is a tough thing to attempt. People are going to be offended. I see it on pretty much every thread that I read. Non-C’s are not going to like hearing our defenses because it puts their religion/beliefs in a negative light in regards to the things that are being defended. Not liking it and calling someone a bigot because you don’t want to learn or see the truth in it, is much different than not liking it and but yet trying to see if there could be any truth to it.

Jesus was perfect, courteous and charitable and spoke the truth but many were still offended. He said many things people did not want to hear. So is it here at (CAF) that many will get offended when trying to explain/defend the Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

I am really surprised that three of the last four posts stated bigotry. I assume then that the three that agreed there was bigotry, think I was being a bigot? Three of you think it, so something must be there. What exactly came across as bigotry? I don’t think that there is one thing that I wrote in my previous post that is not true. I have either heard or read every single thing that I wrote there from some well-meaning, some not, but mis-informed Protestants in regards to the Catholic Church. I didn’t mean disrespect. I am also not narrow minded on this subject. I am just weary of all of the untruths, mis-information that keeps getting spread around. I tried to respond to a post that called all of this “hysterical” That post was nice in a lot of ways, but how easy to say this is basically rediculous and then proceed to state that the Catholics on this board are trying to show Protestants as second class citizens, prove our supremacy, and that the Catholic Church didn’t exist from day one, that the re-ordering of theology by Luther wasn’t necessarily wrong. I admit, it was strongly stated, but I don’t see bigotry. So, please explain where you see that. I give my apologies for going overboard.

I was not naming any names, and no, I was not thinking about your posts, but the tone of the threads typically originated by the OP. They all have the senes that one is looking down one’s nose at those who are not Roman Catholic. As a non-Roman Catholic, I also experience this, but it is probably more acute for Protestants.

 

[guanophore]

I notice a lot of Catholic Arrogance…

Maybe, just maybe the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t have all of the answers?

Lots of things within the Church don’t make much sense to me…

Priests could marry, now priests can’t marry…which is it?

The Catholic Church is much broader than the Latin Rite, which is most prevalent here in the United States. Also, just because something does not make sense to you does not mean that all the answers are not there. I agree, it does require study.

The rule about marriage of priests is not a doctrine, but a discipline, specifically of the Latin Rite. Expceptions to the rules are made for persons that did not experience the call to priesthood before they made a profession of marriage (especially with regard to converts). For a variety of reasons (more appropriate for another thread) the Latin Rite prefers to choose for priests among those who are called to the celibate life.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Thank you for your explanations and understanding. It did seem to me, because those posts came right after mine, that it was addressing my post. We are on page 12 of this thread, so I assumed (I know…) that it was referring to something I said, not the OP. It seems that at least one or two people thought that they were referring to me/my posts because they added and clarified! Oh well, apologetics is something that takes finesse and I will try to work on that! As these debates/defenses back and forth can get testy and heated at times, all of us on both sides need to remember why - we are defending our faiths.

 

[childofmary1143]

Priests could marry, now priests can’t marry…which is it?

Priests could NEVER marry at any time. Married men can become Priests in certain circumstances in the Latin Rite and in other Valid Rites.

 

[thecoach]

**When will the insanity end? When will all the infighting stop? When will there be true Christian unity…unity in beliefs?**You mean hen will everyone be RC,dont you?

Because of the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation”, today, there are approximately 40,000 different, Protestant, non-Catholic Christian denominations, divisions and subdivisions, each and everyone one of them, with a little different “spin” on Christianity.

I would like to hear a Protestant explain the logic or biblical bases for these divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity. I would like to hear a CAtholic theologian try it, or for that matter, answer as to why Peter was not the head of the church at Jerusalem.

Personal interpretation has led to “mob rule” and chaos and it has weakened Christianity. It is the old, “divide and conquer” principle and we are dividing and conquering ourselves.

Imagine how much greater Christianity would be and all the great things that we could accomplish, working together as one faith, which was truly united…You mean under Rome’s control, dont you?

The insanity needs to stop….Where living in a world today, where anyone who has a Bible can become a “minister” and start his or her own (Protestant) Christian denomination. People now can pay a small free and become “ordained ministers”, over the internet. Many people today are having non-denominational ministers perform their marriage ceremonies. What is a “non-denominational ministers” anyways…this does not even make any sense. It makes pefect sense, it mean free to follow Christ and Christ alone.

Some ministers make a living, just marring people. They have drive-through marriage chapels and Elvis impersonators who perform marriages in Las Vegas. There are ministers on TV who claim to heal people and ask for your money. Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in multi-million dollar mansions, all paid for with the monies that were given to them, just like all the RCC money and holdings.with the intention that it would go to help the needy.

There is even a “drunken minister” on the Jerry Springer show.

All these so-called “Ministers of God” belong to some Protestant denomination.Nope, not everything non-Catholic is Protestant. People today have made a mockery of Christianity and a mockery of Holy Sacraments, like marriage. The main cause of all this nonsense can be blamed on “personal interpretation” of the Bible.What about a mockery of your own Holy Orders by sexual abuse cases almost without number?

I know that there are some good and decent ministers and decent denominations out there but with personal interpretation, even a “normal ministers” could error and join the ranks of all the other crazy’s.Again, as long as they are not unde Rome’s control, eh? Where do Orthodox clergy fit into your little paradigm?

Why don’t the “squared away” denominations, reign in the nut cases? They don’t, because they can’t…They can’t, because they too believe in the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation” or, “to each his own”…right?.

I am sure that there exist some Protestants out their who are just as offended as I am with the breakdown of Christianity…What are your thoughts and how is anybody going to correct these problems, without central leadership, oversight and a chain of command?yet another slanted question

I pray for true Christian Unity….no you dont, you pray for Romanistic rule

Peace

Jimmy B.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Let me just say this, I just find this constant bickering divisive and useless. Pope Benedict recently urged the Anglicans to work toward conciliation of their differnces between traditionalists and others within their church. This astounded and angered some CAF folks, since they thought Benedict would be encouraging the traditionalists to split with the Anglicans and return to Rome.

Benedict realizes that we cannot continue in the blame game. Sr. Joan Chittister has a most useful post at NCR this week along the same lines. We are so about vilification of those who we oppose that we are destructive. Twenty, fifty, twoo hundred years later, we may be elevating the same people to sainthood, as we have done in the past.

We love Christ, we believe in his saving grace. That is our starting point. We share to one degree or another dozens of other rituals and beliefs. We for the most part recite the same creed. We do no service to the world or to ourselves in the long run to become this closed pure Church. We become no better than the other fundamentalist oriented religious sects of Muslim, Jewish, and Christian background. We sow seeds of hatred and lurch ever closer to religious war.

Frankly, I’m taking a break from the forum. As one person said in a private message to me, this place and the extreme anger and mean ness of so many posters is just soul killing. I need to rejuvenate among Catholics who are loving, open, accepting, welcoming, and non judgmental for a while. Many here are those things. I just need a break before I lament of my Church ever surviving this darkness I find here so much.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Originally Posted by Jimmy B forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif thecoach’s response in red -

***When will the insanity end? When will all the infighting stop? When will there be true Christian unity…unity in beliefs?***You mean hen will everyone be RC,dont you?

Because of the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation”, today, there are approximately 40,000 different, Protestant, non-Catholic Christian denominations, divisions and subdivisions, each and everyone one of them, with a little different “spin” on Christianity.

I would like to hear a Protestant explain the logic or biblical bases for these divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity. I would like to hear a CAtholic theologian try it, or for that matter, answer as to why Peter was not the head of the church at Jerusalem.

Personal interpretation has led to “mob rule” and chaos and it has weakened Christianity. It is the old, “divide and conquer” principle and we are dividing and conquering ourselves.

Imagine how much greater Christianity would be and all the great things that we could accomplish, working together as one faith, which was truly united…You mean under Rome’s control, dont you?

The insanity needs to stop….Where living in a world today, where anyone who has a Bible can become a “minister” and start his or her own (Protestant) Christian denomination. People now can pay a small free and become “ordained ministers”, over the internet. Many people today are having non-denominational ministers perform their marriage ceremonies. What is a “non-denominational ministers” anyways…this does not even make any sense. It makes pefect sense, it mean free to follow Christ and Christ alone.

Some ministers make a living, just marring people. They have drive-through marriage chapels and Elvis impersonators who perform marriages in Las Vegas. There are ministers on TV who claim to heal people and ask for your money. Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in multi-million dollar mansions, all paid for with the monies that were given to them, just like all the RCC money and holdings.with the intention that it would go to help the needy.

There is even a “drunken minister” on the Jerry Springer show.

All these so-called “Ministers of God” belong to some Protestant denomination.Nope, not everything non-Catholic is Protestant. People today have made a mockery of Christianity and a mockery of Holy Sacraments, like marriage. The main cause of all this nonsense can be blamed on “personal interpretation” of the Bible.What about a mockery of your own Holy Orders by sexual abuse cases almost without number?

I know that there are some good and decent ministers and decent denominations out there but with personal interpretation, even a “normal ministers” could error and join the ranks of all the other crazy’s.Again, as long as they are not unde Rome’s control, eh? Where do Orthodox clergy fit into your little paradigm?

Why don’t the “squared away” denominations, reign in the nut cases? They don’t, because they can’t…They can’t, because they too believe in the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation” or, “to each his own”…right?.

I am sure that there exist some Protestants out their who are just as offended as I am with the breakdown of Christianity…What are your thoughts and how is anybody going to correct these problems, without central leadership, oversight and a chain of command?yet another slanted question

I pray for true Christian Unity….no you dont, you pray for Romanistic rule

Peace

Jimmy B.

Hello again,

You’re funny.

Great, now that you have gotten the “anti-Catholic sermon” out of your system, do you actually believe that your particular interpretation or expression of Christianity, or your denominations, particular interpretation or expression of Christianity is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong?

Why are there so many different, Non-Catholic Christian denominations, if they all have people like you that have it “all figured out”?

Should we all leave our own religions and denominations to follow you and your version of “Christian Truth”? If so, then why?

Thank you for your post…your thoughts?

Peace

 

[Julianna]

…I didn’t read any anti-catholic message from coach’s response. The OP asked a non-catholic to respond. Seems the OP didn’t like the response.

There are quite a bit of Christian groups working together. The LARC in NC does great things for the community and surrounding areas. (Lutheran, Anglican, Roman Catholic). Doesn’t sound insane to me.

Looks to me like, “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander”…or “be careful what ask you ask for…”

It is my sincere hope that our Protestant and non-catholic brothers and sisters do not deem all Catholics as dogmatic as the OP.

As in politics, things go awry when one teeters on the edge of the “extreme”. Sad indeed.

“One tin soldier rides away.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

…I didn’t read any anti-catholic message from coach’s response. The OP asked a non-catholic to respond. Seems the OP didn’t like the response.

There are quite a bit of Christian groups working together. The LARC in NC does great things for the community and surrounding areas. (Lutheran, Anglican, Roman Catholic). Doesn’t sound insane to me.

Looks to me like, “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander”…or “be careful what ask you ask for…”

It is my sincere hope that our Protestant and non-catholic brothers and sisters do not deem all Catholics as dogmatic as the OP.

As in politics, things go awry when one teeters on the edge of the “extreme”. Sad indeed.

“One tin soldier rides away.”

Ok…

 

[Lil_Cat]

Jimmy B,

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy B,

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

I don’t know …do you have any suggestions?

 

[thecoach]

I don’t know …do you have any suggestions?

Oh sure you do…you know very well.

 

[thecoach]

Let me just say this, I just find this constant bickering divisive and useless. Pope Benedict recently urged the Anglicans to work toward conciliation of their differnces between traditionalists and others within their church. This astounded and angered some CAF folks, since they thought Benedict would be encouraging the traditionalists to split with the Anglicans and return to Rome.

Benedict realizes that we cannot continue in the blame game. Sr. Joan Chittister has a most useful post at NCR this week along the same lines. We are so about vilification of those who we oppose that we are destructive. Twenty, fifty, twoo hundred years later, we may be elevating the same people to sainthood, as we have done in the past.

We love Christ, we believe in his saving grace. That is our starting point. We share to one degree or another dozens of other rituals and beliefs. We for the most part recite the same creed. We do no service to the world or to ourselves in the long run to become this closed pure Church. We become no better than the other fundamentalist oriented religious sects of Muslim, Jewish, and Christian background. We sow seeds of hatred and lurch ever closer to religious war.

Frankly, I’m taking a break from the forum. As one person said in a private message to me, this place and the extreme anger and mean ness of so many posters is just soul killing. I need to rejuvenate among Catholics who are loving, open, accepting, welcoming, and non judgmental for a while. Many here are those things. I just need a break before I lament of my Church ever surviving this darkness I find here so much.

The Pope wants unity and discussion then calls other churches defective. He may need less theology and more people skills!

 

[thecoach]

Hello again,

You’re funny.

Great, now that you have gotten the “anti-Catholic sermon” out of your system, do you actually believe that your particular interpretation or expression of Christianity, or your denominations, particular interpretation or expression of Christianity is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong?

Why are there so many different, Non-Catholic Christian denominations, if they all have people like you that have it “all figured out”?

Should we all leave our own religions and denominations to follow you and your version of “Christian Truth”? If so, then why?

Thank you for your post…your thoughts?

Peace

You write" "Hello again,

You’re funny.

Great, now that you have gotten the “anti-Catholic sermon” and your anti-non Catholic one?out of your system, do you actually believe that your particular interpretation or expression of Christianity, or your denominations, particular interpretation or expression of Christianity is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong?This from someone whose leader calls everyone other church defective? Now THAT is funny!

Why are there so many different, Non-Catholic Christian denominations, if they all have people like you that have it “all figured out”? I have no denomination, so that is best answered by one like yourself.

Should we all leave our own religions and denominations to follow you and your version of “Christian Truth”? If so, then why?When have I said that? You, however, should not throw such rocks being in such a glass house as yoursR]

Thank you for your post…your thoughts?"Given…not that you really care…you are quite transparent