Where are all the children?

[jlc2k2]

Of course you can’t tell just by looking at the pews, but according to the women that make up the mom groups at three of my former parishes, most of the families I know that are sitting in the pews at Mass are contracepting. Four seems to be the absolute cutoff in many people’s minds before having one spouse or the other sterilized. I am from a family of 16 kids. About 8 either one spouse or the other is sterilized, on the pill, using conforms, etc. Yet all of us and our children are at Mass each and every Sunday. It really is naive to believe only Catholics that aren’t attending Mass are using contraception.

One thing I have noticed about Catholics that get sterilized–often there are regrets and they were very quick to reach out to me when I was pregnant and tell me not to panic. They assured me that they regret panicking and wish they had a few more kids. There certainly is no pride about their choice and they want to be sure others don’t do as they did. Most of the other ones using the pill or other forms aren’t as regretful, but maybe that is due to the fact that those methods are temporary. When regret hits, they have the option of changing.

And no, I’m not counting women who are using the pill or IUDs for medical issues. At each of the mom groups at the various parishes I’ve attended these ladies have openly admitted what their situation is during our section on discussing Church teaching on birth control. And most of these ladies see no contradiction whatsoever. Yes there are those of us that are faithful to the church’s teaching, but unless you are asking anonymous posters on CAF, most Catholic women aren’t able to make NFP work with those glowing results and most women aren’t using it as their method of choice. Most women that have smaller families are not experiencing fertility issues. I’m not denying that things happen, but those things are the exception in our parishes. It does no good to pretend otherwise. The majority of Catholic (and mixed) couples today are contracepting and that includes those sitting in the pews every week. Not all of us do. There are still quit a few big families even.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Mine has been markedly different. Of the women I am comfortable speaking with on such issues that attend Mass, not a single one contracepts. None. And I have the second most living children of the whole group and am the youngest in the group (I am over 30).

Given how vastly different personal experience and individual experience can be, I would love to see some actual statistics that break out the numbers based on more than whether a person self identifies as Catholic. That doesn’t mean that I’m pretending contraception isn’t a problem. It just means that I want some non-anecdotal evidence regarding the extent of it. That’s all.

 

[jlc2k2]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Mine has been markedly different. Of the women I am comfortable speaking with on such issues that attend Mass, not a single one contracepts. None. And I have the second most living children of the whole group and am the youngest in the group (I am over 30).

Given how vastly different personal experience and individual experience can be, I would love to see some actual statistics that break out the numbers based on more than whether a person self identifies as Catholic. That doesn’t mean that I’m pretending contraception isn’t a problem. It just means that I want some non-anecdotal evidence regarding the extent of it. That’s all.

Oh and in case anyone can’t see my signature, I have 3 living children.

 

[maryjk]

It also may have something to do with the time of the Mass you attended.

Very true.

If you came to our Saturday night mass, you would see smaller families with younger children and plenty of senior citizens.

Come Sunday at 10:30 and you will see many families with 6+ children. A some with 8+.

Like many others here, I have a small family, but wanted a large family. God didn’t have the same idea that I did.

 

[pianistclare]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Mine has been markedly different. Of the women I am comfortable speaking with on such issues that attend Mass, not a single one contracepts. None. And I have the second most living children of the whole group and am the youngest in the group (I am over 30).

Given how vastly different personal experience and individual experience can be, I would love to see some actual statistics that break out the numbers based on more than whether a person self identifies as Catholic. That doesn’t mean that I’m pretending contraception isn’t a problem. It just means that I want some non-anecdotal evidence regarding the extent of it. That’s all.

Me too. I don’t know anyone in my parish that is contracepting, and I am around the families 24-7 as the DRE.
Of course, no one is offering this info…but the ways in which they speak about these issues CLEARLY demonstrates that they are following Church teaching in this regard.

 

[Sarcelle]

The poster was quoting the Apostle Paul who does say, in Scripture, that women are saved through childbirth. Obviously the Church doesn’t teach that women must give birth to be saved… consecrated life is a higher vocation than married life and nuns / sisters / consecrated virgins deliberately choose NOT to be biological mothers. I know some theologians would say that Our Lady, who gave birth to the Saviour, mystically fulfills this requirement for our entire race. The act of giving birth was itself sanctified and united to the work of redemption.

I have often asked both Catholic priests and Protestant ministers on the interpretation of being saved via childbirth. Down to the man, their interpretation centered on Our Lady giving birth to Jesus and childbirth being united to the act of redemption. The Gnostics on the other hand regarded birth as something evil in and of itself.

If women were all saved by the physical act of childbirth, you can be a woman who has given birth to a dozen children, all with different fathers but hey you have given birth and therefore you are saved. No, it does not work that way.

 

[Xantippe]

I have often asked both Catholic priests and Protestant ministers on the interpretation of being saved via childbirth. Down to the man, their interpretation centered on Our Lady giving birth to Jesus and childbirth being united to the act of redemption. The Gnostics on the other hand regarded birth as something evil in and of itself.

If women were all saved by the physical act of childbirth, you can be a woman who has given birth to a dozen children, all with different fathers but hey you have given birth and therefore you are saved. No, it does not work that way.

That’s an interesting point.

 

[MomaMary8]

Me too. I don’t know anyone in my parish that is contracepting, and I am around the families 24-7 as the DRE.
Of course, no one is offering this info…but the ways in which they speak about these issues CLEARLY demonstrates that they are following Church teaching in this regard.

I wish I could have your experience! Unfortunately I don’t. I have been scolded for not using ABC (artificial birth control,) by other church attending Catholics, I have had women past child bearing years lament their decision to not be open to life when they were younger, and 2 out of 3 of my siblings have been sterilized. The third is divorced, but as far as I know, they did not use ABC when married. But, this particular sibling had been told by their priest that ABC was okay if it wasn’t a chemical form of birth control (i.e. Condom or vasectomy would be ok) They then came to me because they recognized the bad advice given by the priest. All these are church attending Catholics.

Contraception is in the pews. Contraception is a problem for our society and a problem for our Church. To deny the problem is deny giving help to those that most need it. Like my sibling who was told contraception would be okay, the decision to use ABC may come from errant teaching. It is not a condemnation of others to recognize that contraception is being used by too many of our brothers and sisters. It’s the first step in giving help to others, helping extend God’s Mercy to them.

As one who is obvious about being open to life in my marriage (with 10 kids that all look like my DH, it’s hard to deny! Or be mistaken for for using contraception! ) I am approached by others and asked how I remained open to so many. They have an honest question and an honest longing to know and understand. We need to help our brothers and sisters to live a life in communion with Christ. To deny contraception exists because some of our population successfully use NFP or have infertility is to deny an elephant in the room. We need to see the problem before we can help.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course you can’t tell just by looking at the pews, but according to the women that make up the mom groups at three of my former parishes, most of the families I know that are sitting in the pews at Mass are contracepting. Four seems to be the absolute cutoff in many people’s minds before having one spouse or the other sterilized. I am from a family of 16 kids. About 8 either one spouse or the other is sterilized, on the pill, using conforms, etc. Yet all of us and our children are at Mass each and every Sunday. It really is naive to believe only Catholics that aren’t attending Mass are using contraception.

One thing I have noticed about Catholics that get sterilized–often there are regrets and they were very quick to reach out to me when I was pregnant and tell me not to panic. They assured me that they regret panicking and wish they had a few more kids. There certainly is no pride about their choice and they want to be sure others don’t do as they did. Most of the other ones using the pill or other forms aren’t as regretful, but maybe that is due to the fact that those methods are temporary. When regret hits, they have the option of changing.

And no, I’m not counting women who are using the pill or IUDs for medical issues. At each of the mom groups at the various parishes I’ve attended these ladies have openly admitted what their situation is during our section on discussing Church teaching on birth control. And most of these ladies see no contradiction whatsoever. Yes there are those of us that are faithful to the church’s teaching, but unless you are asking anonymous posters on CAF, most Catholic women aren’t able to make NFP work with those glowing results and most women aren’t using it as their method of choice. Most women that have smaller families are not experiencing fertility issues. I’m not denying that things happen, but those things are the exception in our parishes. It does no good to pretend otherwise. The majority of Catholic (and mixed) couples today are contracepting and that includes those sitting in the pews every week. Not all of us do. There are still quite a few big families even.

I believe that’s what, in the legal business, they call “hearsay.”

I find it interesting that you know so much about other people’s most intimate affairs.

Personally, I know a lot of people who are trying hard to be good Catholics, but we don’t talk about what we are or aren’t doing with our private parts. In real life, I have a pretty strong sense of privacy, and the only way that somebody would be able to figure out that we do NFP is to either rummage through our bedroom drawers or read some of my husband’s scholarly writings or go through my medical records. (I’m obviously much more open on CAF, but I don’t have to see y’all every week.)

 

[LightBound]

I can say whatever I want, but when everyone went from having a good number and now everyone has two you know something is going on just because one person can’t have kids whatever I’m obviously not talking about you and your husband.

We can’t go by personal interpretation? Be fruitful and multiply, women are saved thru childbirth, Catholics traditionally have had big families. But Della says that’s wrong, but she isn’t changing the words. Ok great Della!

You can say anything you want…and so can I! You have got to be the rudest, most mean-spirited person still allowed on the forum. Did your pharmacy not deliver your meds last night?

 

[bitterhope]

I wish I could have your experience! Unfortunately I don’t. I have been scolded for not using ABC (artificial birth control,) by other church attending Catholics, I have had women past child bearing years lament their decision to not be open to life when they were younger, and 2 out of 3 of my siblings have been sterilized. The third is divorced, but as far as I know, they did not use ABC when married. But, this particular sibling had been told by their priest that ABC was okay if it wasn’t a chemical form of birth control (i.e. Condom or vasectomy would be ok) They then came to me because they recognized the bad advice given by the priest. All these are church attending Catholics.

Contraception is in the pews. Contraception is a problem for our society and a problem for our Church. To deny the problem is deny giving help to those that most need it. Like my sibling who was told contraception would be okay, the decision to use ABC may come from errant teaching. It is not a condemnation of others to recognize that contraception is being used by too many of our brothers and sisters. It’s the first step in giving help to others, helping extend God’s Mercy to them.

As one who is obvious about being open to life in my marriage (with 10 kids that all look like my DH, it’s hard to deny! Or be mistaken for for using contraception! ) I am approached by others and asked how I remained open to so many. They have an honest question and an honest longing to know and understand. We need to help our brothers and sisters to live a life in communion with Christ. To deny contraception exists because some of our population successfully use NFP or have infertility is to deny an elephant in the room. We need to see the problem before we can help.

Yes. I often have women come to me and congratulate me for not panicking like they did, or ask me how I have been able to encourage my husband but to panic, or admit they wish they hadn’t wasted so many fertile years avoiding pregnancy, or say the only regret they have is they didn’t work on ways of finding joy while their families were young. Other women have told me about their struggles with fertility. But unfortunately there are way more women that are critical of me not using ABC to limit my family size. They find it old fashioned or outdated to rely on either NFP or use nothing at all. And couples that use NFP are quick to point out that the church no longer requires us to reproduce “like rabbit” or having many children doesn’t make you “more Catholic.” Maybe it’s because we stick out so people feel like sharing that with us (moms with many kids) or maybe it’s because we discuss those issues during our mom group weekly, or maybe there is guilt involved so they feel they need to defend themselves or dissuade others from their mistakes or they are truly curious of how large families make it work. My mom says the issue has always been there in the pews. She married before Vatican II and already it was there. It’s not new. Her mother and my dads mother were given a hard time about their large families back in the 1920’s-1950’s. Condoms, withdrawl, surgical procedures far outdate the pill. Yes, it’s gotten more prevelant since the 1960’s but it’s always been there. It’s just that today the shame factor often tends to be missing from the equation.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

my son’s best friend is an only child.

Recently his mom told me that they actually were prepared to never have children because they believed that her husband was infertile.

She didn’t even think it was possible to be pregnant, and thought she has some medical problems instead.

She said they never used birth control. They had one blessing. I wouldn’t know unless told.

 

[bitterhope]

I believe that’s what, in the legal business, they call “hearsay.”

I find it interesting that you know so much about other people’s most intimate affairs.

Personally, I know a lot of people who are trying hard to be good Catholics, but we don’t talk about what we are or aren’t doing with our private parts. In real life, I have a pretty strong sense of privacy, and the only way that somebody would be able to figure out that we do NFP is to either rummage through our bedroom drawers or read some of my husband’s scholarly writings or go through my medical records. (I’m obviously much more open on CAF, but I don’t have to see y’all every week.)

The women are speaking of themselves not of anyone else at church. They admit they are using ABC–usually the pill or sterilization. It’s not hearsay when speaking of themselves. And it’s no longer their private life when they are divulging the information themselves. If they put it out there they aren’t seeking privacy about it.

 

[Allegra]

The women are speaking of themselves not of anyone else at church. They admit they are using ABC–usually the pill or sterilization. It’s not hearsay when speaking of themselves. And it’s no longer their private life when they are divulging the information themselves. If they put it out there they aren’t seeking privacy about it.

It’s hearsay when you retell it to us though. Hearsay is unreliable because it depends on the accuracy and interpretation of a third party.

 

[MomaMary8]

my son’s best friend is an only child.

Recently his mom told me that they actually were prepared to never have children because they believed that her husband was infertile.

She didn’t even think it was possible to be pregnant, and thought she has some medical problems instead.

She said they never used birth control. They had one blessing. I wouldn’t know unless told.

It’s hearsay when you retell it to us though. Hearsay is unreliable because it depends on the accuracy and interpretation of a third party.

Is Mary Gail’s story hearsay as well?

Actually, both examples are what we call anecdotal evidence. It’s not reliable evidence for either side, but both exemplifies the possibilities that exist for smaller family size. Hear say has to do with a a court of laws and what is permmissible as evidence. Court standards aren’t in place here, are they?

(Sorry for quoting you Mary Gail, but one person is getting chastised for re-telling stories divulged to her, but not everyone here is held to the same standard.)

now back to the issue of the OP

A sister in Christ who is contemplating entering our Church family asked a question, “where are all the children?” We have all given many reasons as to why she didn’t see a lot of kids in the pew, and all are very valid reasons. But having a “new comer” enter in the church and ask the obvious question is kind of refreshing. It reminds me of a close knit family that doesn’t want to admit that Uncle Joe is drinking too much. Everyone else is fine in the family, we just don’t want to admit that poor Uncle Joe has a problem. It might reflect badly on us. “I had a glass of wine! My breath smells like alcohol, but I don’t have a problem!” This is what we are doing when we pipe up with all these anecdotal stories. Uncle Joe has a problem! We have sisters and brothers in the Church with problems! We can’t help them until we admit that some of us have problems…its called sin. We all have sin. That’s why we go to confession, thanks be to God.

I am very thankful for the OP for bringing up this issue. We need to open our eyes and see what is before us. We need to help the young married couples and the growing families to know and accept Churchh teaching. Many of us do Love and accept the teachings with full and (not so full ) open arms. Others need help in holding their arms up (even Moses needed Aaron to hold his arms up.)

 

[jlc2k2]

Of course you can’t tell just by looking at the pews, but according to the women that make up the mom groups at three of my former parishes, most of the families I know that are sitting in the pews at Mass are contracepting. Four seems to be the absolute cutoff in many people’s minds before having one spouse or the other sterilized. I am from a family of 16 kids. About 8 either one spouse or the other is sterilized, on the pill, using conforms, etc. Yet all of us and our children are at Mass each and every Sunday. It really is naive to believe only Catholics that aren’t attending Mass are using contraception.

One thing I have noticed about Catholics that get sterilized–often there are regrets and they were very quick to reach out to me when I was pregnant and tell me not to panic. They assured me that they regret panicking and wish they had a few more kids. There certainly is no pride about their choice and they want to be sure others don’t do as they did. Most of the other ones using the pill or other forms aren’t as regretful, but maybe that is due to the fact that those methods are temporary. When regret hits, they have the option of changing.

And no, I’m not counting women who are using the pill or IUDs for medical issues. At each of the mom groups at the various parishes I’ve attended these ladies have openly admitted what their situation is during our section on discussing Church teaching on birth control. And most of these ladies see no contradiction whatsoever. Yes there are those of us that are faithful to the church’s teaching, but unless you are asking anonymous posters on CAF, most Catholic women aren’t able to make NFP work with those glowing results and most women aren’t using it as their method of choice. Most women that have smaller families are not experiencing fertility issues. I’m not denying that things happen, but those things are the exception in our parishes. It does no good to pretend otherwise. The majority of Catholic (and mixed) couples today are contracepting and that includes those sitting in the pews every week. Not all of us do. There are still quite a few big families even.

Also, my statement regarding not being able to tell based on looking at the pews was to address the original post which is specifically asked based on looking at the pews. Not based off of conversations with anyone.

I never said that contraception wasn’t a problem - I’m just interested in data and asked a question.

 

[bitterhope]

It’s hearsay when you retell it to us though. Hearsay is unreliable because it depends on the accuracy and interpretation of a third party.

I will agree with you there. But it’s really missing the point of all this. People post all the time with hearsay and no one ever comments about that unless they are attempting to negate the actual point being stated. Besides, many statements do not require interpretation. Many are straight forward statements of fact.

 

[jmjZelie]

I believe that’s what, in the legal business, they call “hearsay.”

I find it interesting that you know so much about other people’s most intimate affairs.

Personally, I know a lot of people who are trying hard to be good Catholics, but we don’t talk about what we are or aren’t doing with our private parts. In real life, I have a pretty strong sense of privacy, and the only way that somebody would be able to figure out that we do NFP is to either rummage through our bedroom drawers or read some of my husband’s scholarly writings or go through my medical records. (I’m obviously much more open on CAF, but I don’t have to see y’all every week.)

People tend to talk to me quite a lot about their family planning decisions as well. That began after I got pregnant with baby#4 I think. I suspect that the out of the ordinariness of having 4 children, plus the fact that I generally listen kindly and don’t point fingers, made them feel like they could safely broach the topic with a sympathetic listener. So in my experience, it is quite common for me to know about the choice to contracept or sterilize, or on the other hand, to use NFP or to do nothing at all besides living as husband and wife and seeing what happens. It is not that big of a deal for me to know these details. It isn’t really interesting. It doesn’t happen via prying. Even complete strangers will open up about that kind of stuff if they see me with all my little ducklings. Mostly, they seem to just want someone to be kind to them and to look at them and to care, even for a moment.

 

[jmjZelie]

Is Mary Gail’s story hearsay as well?

Actually, both examples are what we call anecdotal evidence. It’s not reliable evidence for either side, but both exemplifies the possibilities that exist for smaller family size. Hear say has to do with a a court of laws and what is permmissible as evidence. Court standards aren’t in place here, are they?

(Sorry for quoting you Mary Gail, but one person is getting chastised for re-telling stories divulged to her, but not everyone here is held to the same standard.)

now back to the issue of the OP

A sister in Christ who is contemplating entering our Church family asked a question, “where are all the children?” We have all given many reasons as to why she didn’t see a lot of kids in the pew, and all are very valid reasons. But having a “new comer” enter in the church and ask the obvious question is kind of refreshing. It reminds me of a close knit family that doesn’t want to admit that Uncle Joe is drinking too much. Everyone else is fine in the family, we just don’t want to admit that poor Uncle Joe has a problem. It might reflect badly on us. “I had a glass of wine! My breath smells like alcohol, but I don’t have a problem!” This is what we are doing when we pipe up with all these anecdotal stories. Uncle Joe has a problem! We have sisters and brothers in the Church with problems! We can’t help them until we admit that some of us have problems…its called sin. We all have sin. That’s why we go to confession, thanks be to God.

I am very thankful for the OP for bringing up this issue. We need to open our eyes and see what is before us. We need to help the young married couples and the growing families to know and accept Churchh teaching. Many of us do Love and accept the teachings with full and (not so full ) open arms. Others need help in holding their arms up (even Moses needed Aaron to hold his arms up.)

Very well said!

 

[Xantippe]

The women are speaking of themselves not of anyone else at church. They admit they are using ABC–usually the pill or sterilization. It’s not hearsay when speaking of themselves. And it’s no longer their private life when they are divulging the information themselves. If they put it out there they aren’t seeking privacy about it.

That’s not what you said.

You said (and I quote): “Of course you can’t tell just by looking at the pews, but according to the women that make up the mom groups at three of my former parishes, most of the families I know that are sitting in the pews at Mass are contracepting.”

That didn’t sound like the moms at the mothers’ group talking about themselves, but gossiping about various third parties. If that’s not what you meant and you wanted to say that the majority of moms at mothers’ group are using contraception, then you could have said that.

 

[Xantippe]

People tend to talk to me quite a lot about their family planning decisions as well. That began after I got pregnant with baby#4 I think. I suspect that the out of the ordinariness of having 4 children, plus the fact that I generally listen kindly and don’t point fingers, made them feel like they could safely broach the topic with a sympathetic listener. So in my experience, it is quite common for me to know about the choice to contracept or sterilize, or on the other hand, to use NFP or to do nothing at all besides living as husband and wife and seeing what happens. It is not that big of a deal for me to know these details. It isn’t really interesting. It doesn’t happen via prying. Even complete strangers will open up about that kind of stuff if they see me with all my little ducklings. Mostly, they seem to just want someone to be kind to them and to look at them and to care, even for a moment.

I just can’t even imagine talking about anybody I know in real life about my family planning, except my husband and my doctor (when relevant).

You gals have convinced me that there are people bending your ear, but I wouldn’t do it,.

It’s not the way of my people.