Where are all the children?

[Allegra]

Yes.

Believe it or not, “Suck it up, buttercup” is not in the Bible.

 

[Xantippe]

If you earn 120k in a year you aren’t going to be paying any federal income tax if you have 6 children to deduct. Just think of all the tax savings this guy is passing up

And I hate to be a downer but I have a friend into sports cars and 24k is closer to what he spends on repairs and entry fees. For example, he is paying 9k to enter Targa NL and that race is for pure fun, no prize to be won. Sports cars are a rich man’s hobby to be sure.

But I’m right there with you scoffing at the idea of 120k being a lot of money to live on. It is difficult to convince a company to give you that much but you will not live extravagantly on that salary by any stretch of the imagination.

…not if you do all the stuff you’re supposed to with it (in terms of charity, retirement savings, and college savings). And certainly not if the area is at all expensive.

People in that income range are generally very concerned (and rightly so) about how they will afford college for their kids.

You often see people on CAF in that income range but with large families dealing with that issue by deciding well in advance that they will not help with college. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out how grateful those kids will be to their parents for making that choice and leaving them either without a profession to support a family or in debt up to their eyeballs…

 

[Xantippe]

It’s a lot more than my family lives on.

If you had it, you’d find it goes much faster than you think, especially once your kids are bigger.

I did some math at some point and realized that there’s a one year period where even if our two oldest go to a state school, we will be shelling out the equivalent of buying two new Mustangs in a single year.

Even on $120k a year, you need a running start to deal with that kind of event.

 

[MomaMary8]

ThePCWife brings up an interesting point regarding complaining.

I’m from a WASP family and my husband is from a more emotionally expressive ethnicity, so we come from very different places, although we have probably converged over the years.

My old pattern of behavior is stifle-stifle-stifle-stifle-BOOOM! and now that I have had time to think about it, it’s not actually a more functional approach than my husband’s pattern.

So I would encourage the less-expressive to not think of themselves as particularly virtuous–they may just be harder to understand.

Have you ever considered that it may be a spiritual exercise? I had a beautiful nun who taught our 6th grade class the exercise of Silent Suffering. It was not a denial of suffering or a suppression of emotion but rather a human attempt at turning a human condition (suffering) into a supernatural experience. BTW, this nun was full bloodied Italian, and she kept her peace about her through all her suffering. I’m positive she’s a saint and has helped others to become a saint by offering her suffering up for others.

 

[Allegra]

Have you ever considered that it may be a spiritual exercise? I had a beautiful nun who taught our 6th grade class the exercise of Silent Suffering. It was not a denial of suffering or a suppression of emotion but rather a human attempt at turning a human condition (suffering) into a supernatural experience. BTW, this nun was full bloodied Italian, and she kept her peace about her through all her suffering. I’m positive she’s a saint and has helped others to become a saint by offering her suffering up for others.

It COULD be a spiritual exercise if it was only internal, as in a personal choice to suffer in silence about specific things. For example, it’s probably a good spiritual practice to suffer in silence when your coworker annoys you, since you have no control over what your coworker does anyway and venting or pouting could actually turn into a temptation to sin for you. I highly doubt that sainted nun was advising twelve-year-olds to be silent about physical pain from injury or parental abuse or something serious like that. Anyway, when silent suffering is suddenly turned from an internal devotion into an outward expectation of other people it becomes a form of spiritual pride and gets dangerously close to a lack of compassion.

 

[Xantippe]

It COULD be a spiritual exercise if it was only internal, as in a personal choice to suffer in silence about specific things. For example, it’s probably a good spiritual practice to suffer in silence when your coworker annoys you, since you have no control over what your coworker does anyway and venting or pouting could actually turn into a temptation to sin for you. I highly doubt that sainted nun was advising twelve-year-olds to be silent about physical pain from injury or parental abuse or something serious like that. Anyway, when silent suffering is suddenly turned from an internal devotion into an outward expectation of other people it becomes a form of spiritual pride and gets dangerously close to a lack of compassion.

Yes.

Plus our spouses deserve to have an adequate amount of information as to what is going on.

We don’t want to accidentally live O. Henry’s “Gift of the Magi” with our spouses.

Also, come to think of it, our close friends and family also often want to know what is going on with us, if they love us. Not sharing information or asking for help can seem like a lack of confidence and trust in the people that love us.

 

[Xantippe]

It COULD be a spiritual exercise if it was only internal, as in a personal choice to suffer in silence about specific things. For example, it’s probably a good spiritual practice to suffer in silence when your coworker annoys you, since you have no control over what your coworker does anyway and venting or pouting could actually turn into a temptation to sin for you. I highly doubt that sainted nun was advising twelve-year-olds to be silent about physical pain from injury or parental abuse or something serious like that. Anyway, when silent suffering is suddenly turned from an internal devotion into an outward expectation of other people it becomes a form of spiritual pride and gets dangerously close to a lack of compassion.

Also, here’s a horrid thought–what if Mrs. Usige shares MomaMary8’s belief in silent suffering?

In that case, Mr. Usige would be completely in the dark as to Mrs. Usige’s internal state and how well she was coping.

 

[Sarcelle]

It COULD be a spiritual exercise if it was only internal, as in a personal choice to suffer in silence about specific things. For example, it’s probably a good spiritual practice to suffer in silence when your coworker annoys you, since you have no control over what your coworker does anyway and venting or pouting could actually turn into a temptation to sin for you. I highly doubt that sainted nun was advising twelve-year-olds to be silent about physical pain from injury or parental abuse or something serious like that. Anyway, when silent suffering is suddenly turned from an internal devotion into an outward expectation of other people it becomes a form of spiritual pride and gets dangerously close to a lack of compassion.

This expectation of offering up one’s own suffering of others is what initially turned me off Catholicism. Too often I have seen so called devout Catholics tell abused spouses and children to stay with their abusers and offer it up. The abuser is often excused and the victim seen as the villain if they refuse to stay with the abuser and continue to be abused. Protestants and atheists I have known on the other hand will protect the victim and take no guff from the abuser.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to overpost, but here’s another thought on silent suffering and the propriety of teaching it to kids.

When I was an older tween/young teen, I had a lot of largely medical anxieties. AIDS was a big deal then, so I was very anxious that having shared a swimming pool with biker types meant that I was going to get AIDS and DIE. Likewise, I had poor vision (very poor in one eye), and I was convinced that I was going to go BLIND. I don’t know that I ever mentioned these concerns to my parents or any other adults.

With one of my kids, I totally understand the appeal of teaching silent suffering. It would be much easier on me if she would. However, even though she’s generally very expressive, every so often it turns out that she’s nursing some sort of anxiety that we know nothing about. It’s even more clear-cut with our middle child–he’s much less expressive and he needs to be coaxed to tell us stuff, even stuff that’s tying him up in knots.

So, I’m not really a fan of the idea of teaching silent suffering to kids. Even though it can be annoying to deal with the whining, it’s valuable to have open communication with kids.

 

[MomaMary8]

:banghead:

 

[MomaMary8]

Yes.

Believe it or not, “Suck it up, buttercup” is not in the Bible.

From today’s reading (Sunday, Feb 28)

Do not grumble as some of them did,
and suffered death by the destroyer.

For the entire reading in case you missed it:

usccb.org/bible/readings/022816-third-sunday-lent.cfm

 

[Wesrock]

It is true that there isn’t a lot of respect for Church teaching on contraceptive in some places. That said, some couples struggle with infertility (my wife and I, for one – I think the statistic is that one in six couples are impacted by this… ONE IN SIX!). Some couples may be limiting the size of their family for valid reasons through natural family planning, not using contraceptives at all to interfere with the act.

 

[Xantippe]

From today’s reading (Sunday, Feb 28)

Do not grumble as some of them did,
and suffered death by the destroyer.

For the entire reading in case you missed it:

usccb.org/bible/readings/022816-third-sunday-lent.cfm

Good catch!

But how do you feel about Jeremiah and the Psalms?

I feel like the people of the Bible were, if anything, much more emotionally expressive than ourselves. Nobody ever had to ask, “I wonder how Jeremiah feels about this?” or “I wonder how St. Paul feels about this?”

 

[Allegra]

This expectation of offering up one’s own suffering of others is what initially turned me off Catholicism. Too often I have seen so called devout Catholics tell abused spouses and children to stay with their abusers and offer it up. The abuser is often excused and the victim seen as the villain if they refuse to stay with the abuser and continue to be abused. Protestants and atheists I have known on the other hand will protect the victim and take no guff from the abuser.

I don’t think this is a widely held belief amongst Catholics though. The actual Church teachings on offering up one’s suffering can be a tremendous comfort to someone who is suffering in a way in which they have little or not control. But one doesn’t need to be either silent or complacent in their suffering in order to offer it up. For example, a person suffering from the pain of cancer can offer it up, but that doesn’t mean they don’t tell anyone they are in pain or refuse chemotherapy.

 

[Allegra]

Also, here’s a horrid thought–what if Mrs. Usige shares MomaMary8’s belief in silent suffering?

In that case, Mr. Usige would be completely in the dark as to Mrs. Usige’s internal state and how well she was coping.

Here’s a worse thought! What if Mr. Usige shares MomaMary8’s belief about expecting silent suffering from other people and Mrs. Usige would like to tell him about her problems and possibly get his support, but she is afraid to because she is under pressure from him to remain silent? (And before Usige accuses me of assigning this situation to his actual real life, I’m not. I’m speaking hypothetically.)

 

[Allegra]

:banghead:

Banging your head against the wall is not silent.

 

[MomaMary8]

Here’s a worse thought! What if Mr. Usige shares MomaMary8’s belief about expecting silent suffering from other people and Mrs. Usige would like to tell him about her problems and possibly get his support, but she is afraid to because she is under pressure from him to remain silent? (And before Usige accuses me of assigning this situation to his actual real life, I’m not. I’m speaking hypothetically.)

Fear of seeking support is not the same as refraining from grumbling.

Banging your head against the wall is not silent.

Good thing you cannot see the blood dripping from my tongue as a bite down. That emoji is not an option.

 

[pianistclare]

Also, having been there, and living through it out of FEAR, silent suffering almost always negatively impacts the children involved. It send a message of
*Don’t tell ever!
If you’re holy, you can be braver!
We just have to live with this that or another!
I won’t protect you. *

Which can really be harmful.
The Church never expects us to be a doormat. Suffering can be redemptive, but we should always be aware that our actions and INACTION can impact others.
Most of the time, the ones who don’t have much of a voice in the first place.

 

[Xantippe]

Good thing you cannot see the blood dripping from my tongue as a bite down. That emoji is not an option.

Uh oh.

I’m afraid you may be grumbling!

 

[Allegra]

Also, having been there, and living through it out of FEAR, silent suffering almost always negatively impacts the children involved. It send a message of
*Don’t tell ever!
If you’re holy, you can be braver!
We just have to live with this that or another!
I won’t protect you. *

Which can really be harmful.
The Church never expects us to be a doormat. Suffering can be redemptive, but we should always be aware that our actions and INACTION can impact others.
Most of the time, the ones who don’t have much of a voice in the first place.

That’s true. I don’t have any personal experience as my people are never silent about anything. However, I know several people whose “silent suffering” looked a lot like “pretending a problem doesn’t exist”. In every case, the “problem” was a chemical addiction. Well, no. There was a gambling addiction involved as well.