Where are all the children?

[Allegra]

We order all our grains in bulk to avoid bringing our savage horde out in public. We buy meat by the side for the same reason. The only thing that we go to the store for is produce, and as soon as Amazon comes out with a delivery service for that we will be signing up. If we do go to the store I find that we raise such a din that most people clear the aisles when we move their way. I used to be embarrassed but then I stopped caring and it didn´t cause any more stress. It’s simple mind over matter. When you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter.

Who cares what people think? If you got them all across the parking lot still alive, that’s worth an ice cream. Just don’t give them those horrid little “kid carts” that people let their kids loose with. (I hate those things!) Sometimes you just need milk though. I’m looking forward to the time when I can pull up to the curb and send my oldest in with five dollars and tell her to get the milk. Do you think four is too young?

 

[Xantippe]

Who cares what people think? If you got them all across the parking lot still alive, that’s worth an ice cream. Just don’t give them those horrid little “kid carts” that people let their kids loose with. (I hate those things!) Sometimes you just need milk though. I’m looking forward to the time when I can pull up to the curb and send my oldest in with five dollars and tell her to get the milk. Do you think four is too young?

It’s definitely too young to send her in for wine.

 

[Allegra]

It’s definitely too young to send her in for wine.

Well, of course! A four-year-old doesn’t know a zinfandel from a merlot!

 

[MomaMary8]

The fact that your wife laughs at the idea of even attempting to go to the store for a few things with her kids pretty much proves that it is a hassle to do so. On the other hand, so is running out of bread. Something doesn’t have to be completely impossible before it’s not in one’s best interest to attempt.

I actually see all sorts of parents talking about difficulties of raising lots of kids, or even a couple kids. There’s plenty of women posting in the family forums about difficulty they are having with just one kid! Actually, the trend that I notice more is that the posters who express difficulty tend to be female while those who say it’s no big deal are usually male. Just sayin.

I’m a female. I’m not complaining about my vocation.

Thank you for saying this more charitably then I would have when someone presumes to know my wife of 21 years better than I do.

Since I am just a uninformed male it is time for me to step out of this conversation. I have children and a wife who are much more worth my time anyways.

Pax tecum.

Hey! Don’t go! I like your posts and we busy moms of big broods need help with defending our lifestyle!

Those are all very interesting points.

With your last point, I think there is an optical illusion caused by the fact that when daddy is home, mommy is usually home as well, whereas the reverse isn’t necessarily true. Hence daddy may wind up with rather unrealistic ideas of what mommy’s day is like, because he’s unable to observe what things are like for her when he isn’t there.

That’s just an odd statement. Don’t you think we ever get out of the house on our own? My husband has been around enough to know what my days are like.

I think you misunderstood. I didn’t say that men have it easier. I said that men often seem to think that taking care of several very young children is easier than women think it is. I suspect the reason they think it is easier is that they aren’t usually the one doing it, at least on a constant basis. And as another poster pointed out, men are less likely to be alone with all their children at once. If they are home, the wife is usually home too. Even in our home, when I’m planning on leaving the kids with my husband for a few hours, they are usually already in their jammies and fed, or dinner is prepared and just needs to be heated. I basically have as much done for him as possible so that things go smoothly, because he is not used to having to do all those things and I don’t want to come home and have to do extra things that should have already been done in addition to the things I still have to do! (If that makes sense.) In other words, he’s set up for success, so yeah, it probably does seem easy. I KNOW that working a fulltime job to support a family isn’t easy because I do that too, so that isn’t an issue for us.

You are correct that mothers of more children tend to express frustration less and that’s probably due to the mathematical necessity that in order to have ten children, you’ve most likely been parenting at least ten years and more likely closer to twenty. A mother of one or two children often has not been parenting as long and is still learning. I suspect that if you went back in time and spoke to the mother of ten when she was a mother of two, she might complain more. And we all know the grandma ladies whose kids are already all raised to adulthood who like to boast about how they never had any trouble when their kids were little and today’s mothers are just soft.

I agree with your last statement that many non-parents entertain regrets about the road not taken, but then again I think most parents do from time to time as well. It’s not a good habit to get into for anyone, but I don’t think there’s any particular walk of life that’s immune to it.

I was taught not to complain. You do your work, you get it done. I’m a mother of ten, my oldest is 23. Yes, I have many more years of experience than a mother just beginning this journey. I can look back and tell you there were those who complained and those who didn’t, just like now. I wasn’t a complainer then and I am not one now. When things don’t go well you either adjust what you can or research to find a new way of doing things. If you are finding that you are running to the store for one or two things because you ran out, you might want to adjust your shopping list or your consumption patterns. It’s easy to calculate how many sandwiches one loaf of bread can make and if it’s enough for the week. If someone eats two extra, by Friday you should be creating an alternative packable lunch. It’s what homemakers do when they view their role as a professional. I’d get fired from a purchasing position if I could not accurately purchase the needed materials for a factory. We have to take the same ethics into our role as mother and homemaker.

 

[Allegra]

I’m a female. I’m not complaining about my vocation.

Hey! Don’t go! I like your posts and we busy moms of big broods need help with defending our lifestyle!

That’s just an odd statement. Don’t you think we ever get out of the house on our own? My husband has been around enough to know what my days are like.

I was taught not to complain. You do your work, you get it done. I’m a mother of ten, my oldest is 23. Yes, I have many more years of experience than a mother just beginning this journey. I can look back and tell you there were those who complained and those who didn’t, just like now. I wasn’t a complainer then and I am not one now. When things don’t go well you either adjust what you can or research to find a new way of doing things. If you are finding that you are running to the store for one or two things because you ran out, you might want to adjust your shopping list or your consumption patterns. It’s easy to calculate how many sandwiches one loaf of bread can make and if it’s enough for the week. If someone eats two extra, by Friday you should be creating an alternative packable lunch. It’s what homemakers do when they view their role as a professional. I’d get fired from a purchasing position if I could not accurately purchase the needed materials for a factory. We have to take the same ethics into our role as mother and homemaker.

Some people are complainers more than others, but even those who rarely voice their frustrations can still be frustrated. They just don’t say so. And every business that orders things has had to make a last minute order because they opened up the crate containing this weeks shipment of doo-hickeys and it turned out that they were accidentally sent thing-a-ma-jigs. Or the doo-hickeys spoiled because the power went out. Or one of the staff has been taking them home.

 

[MomaMary8]

Some people are complainers more than others, but even those who rarely voice their frustrations can still be frustrated. They just don’t say so. And every business that orders things has had to make a last minute order because they opened up the crate containing this weeks shipment of doo-hickeys and it turned out that they were accidentally sent thing-a-ma-jigs. Or the doo-hickeys spoiled because the power went out. Or one of the staff has been taking them home.

It was said that a mother of 10 probably complained more when she just had 2. I’m a mother of 10, I did not complain at 2. You don’t have to guess, I’m right here to answer that one. A mother that complains at 2 will complain at 10, unless she changes herself.

Sure things happen, but if it happens so often that it becomes a hassle that prevents you from continuing or growing your business, that’s a problem.

 

[Allegra]

It was said that a mother of 10 probably complained more when she just had 2. I’m a mother of 10, I did not complain at 2. You don’t have to guess, I’m right here to answer that one. A mother that complains at 2 will complain at 10, unless she changes herself.

Sure things happen, but if it happens so often that it becomes a hassle that prevents you from continuing or growing your business, that’s a problem.

Maybe we’re getting hung up on the word “complain”. I’ll rephrase. A mother of two, due to her lack of experience, is likely to encounter a higher instance of difficult situations that she must figure out how to overcome. (Whether she decides to voice her frustrations or not is irrelevant.) Whereas, a mother of ten, who presumably has considerably more experience, will likely come across less of such situations.

 

[Xantippe]

Maybe we’re getting hung up on the word “complain”. I’ll rephrase. A mother of two, due to her lack of experience, is likely to encounter a higher instance of difficult situations that she must figure out how to overcome. (Whether she decides to voice her frustrations or not is irrelevant.) Whereas, a mother of ten, who presumably has considerably more experience, will likely come across less of such situations.

Or, alternately, the complaints won’t be about the same stuff. It might be, “He never calls, he never writes!” rather than “I don’t know what to do with the toddler during Mass.”

 

[misspriss]

I think there are probably way more people like you than like a previous poster’s father-of-one-with-a-sportscar.

I will try to find time to talk more about that later.

Yeah and we bought a minivan, it seats six so I thought it would be great for 4 kids but not until 2 are over 4-5. I specifically bought a minivan thinking we would use it until it died or we would need a bigger one, and seating 4 kids (I thought) I figured we would have it paid off in the 6 years we signed up for…

 

[Allegra]

Or, alternately, the complaints won’t be about the same stuff. It might be, “He never calls, he never writes!” rather than “I don’t know what to do with the toddler during Mass.”

There are new problems as the kids get older, but presumably after raising ten one-year-olds, a mother is better at the one-year-old problems. Then once the first few are grown and move out, it’s smooth sailing for the last seven! Actually, I think my parents got sort of lazy by depending on the older kids to occupy the younger kids. THen when we all went off to college they looked at my youngest brother like, “Oh, are you still here?” He got all the money and stuff but he definitely got the short end of the parental affection and attention stick.

 

[Allegra]

Yeah and we bought a minivan, it seats six so I thought it would be great for 4 kids but not until 2 are over 4-5. I specifically bought a minivan thinking we would use it until it died or we would need a bigger one, and seating 4 kids (I thought) I figured we would have it paid off in the 6 years we signed up for…

I have to give up on my dream of extended rear-facing my two-year-old when my younger child was born. Turns out, the rear-facing seat doesn’t fit behind the drivers seat of either of our cars. (Blast you, deceptive extended rear-facing informational youtube video! You said it would work in almost any car!) I’m hoping to get one more smog test out of my car, which will give me three more years to save up enough for a fancy (used) van! That will be perfect because then my oldest girl will be old enough to come with me to school and that will open up a slot in our childcare budget for a new baby!

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t care if people eschew children as long as they use morally permissible means and it is not for selfish reasons, but don’t assume any fears, phobias, or anxieties you have about large families apply to everyone that only have a couple kids. Some people don’t have kids simply because of selfish desires (I want to retire at 50 and be free to travel and enjoy life; kid’s are messy and obnoxious). I have plenty of friends with a “horde” of kids where only one works and they barely scape by and then I hear friends making 120k+ with one or two kids talk about how broke they are while polishing their weekend sports car. Want to guess who’s happier even without date nights? Difficult does not mean impossible. It depends on our priorities.

My apologies for jumping on your case, but I get sick of people that present 2 or 3 kids today as being the most sane course. The implication is that those of us who accept having larger familes are somehow missing a few screws. I bought into the 2 is perfect BS for 10 years and only after talking with friends that had half the income and 3x as many kids that I realized my choices were based on selfishness, plain and simple. If you don’t want a large family, then fine, but please don’t paint those that do as some kind of weird outliers.

Some thoughts:

1. As people have mentioned previously, life in today’s US is set up for the two child family. As has come up in previous discussion, cars and car seats, hotel room occupancy rules and landlord limits on number of children can all make for serious obstacles for families. (In fact, we had a thread recently where a poster was fearing possible eviction from her studio apartment once she and her husband have their first baby–I believe that one was resolved for the moment, but apartment occupancy rules are a reasonable concern.)

I myself have found that even just having two children in school plus a baby/toddler is often problematic. I feel like a lot of school expectations are calibrated based on a family that has 2.0 children. Now that my youngest is 3, I think I’m more or less aware of what’s going on, but through my last pregnancy and baby’s first couple years, there were months at a time where it was just “Jesus take the wheel” and hope that things are OK with school and the big kids generally. I’m not excited about repeating that.

It’s probably not an accident that so many of those who report large families on the forum are also homeschoolers.

1. I think you may have some odd ideas about the distribution of income in the US. The median US household income is around $50k. Only 20% of US households make over $100k. Around 5% earn $150k or more and 1% earn $250k or more. (Stats gleaned from a variety of sources.)

Hence, your friend polishing the sports car is richer than between 80-95% of the US, and his situation has very little relevance for talking about the average person.

1. That aside, let’s be fair to your friend with the sports car.
   –The sports car is in fact much cheaper than children (assuming a mid-five figure car, not a six-figure European luxury car). You could buy a new Mustang every year ($24k) and it would be cheaper than paying for college for a single child. Also, the Mustang doesn’t need to be homeschooled or keep mom from working full-time.
   –He’s paying a lot of taxes.
   –If he is conscientious, he may feel like he should give generously. I would encourage somebody in his shoes to aim for 10% of income in giving.
   –He needs to save for retirement. (Dave Ramsey suggests 15% of income.)
   –If he is a conscientious father, he ought to be saving for college, as his children will be eligible for very little financial aid. 10% would be a good number to aim for.
   –Now, a lot of this stuff is tax-advantaged, but nonetheless you’ll notice that he doesn’t have $120k anymore–he is living on substantially less than that.

Also, I think you have somewhat unrealistic ideas of what exactly that income covers. Our family has an income within range of that and three kids, but there aren’t any sportscars in our driveway.

1. If a father believes that children are messy and obnoxious and dislikes children, is it actually a good idea for him to have a large family? I lean toward “no.”
2. How many people actually retire at 50?

The average person is doing really, really well to be able to retire at 65.

 

[ThePCWife]

To be clear, I don’t think having two or three or even four kids is “the most sane course”. I’m relaying the experiences of people who committed the crime of starting their families post 2000 and particularly the last ten years of that period of time. Most of those women never have time to post even a stray comment or two except from a phone to something like facebook or pinterest, they’re so worn down by their responsibilities. And they to a woman love their kids, but they are.so.tired.all.the.time. Preschool is a relief tinged with shame at feeling relief. Same for kindergarten and first grade. Some of them married late and will never be able to have more than two or three due to the inexorable facts of biology.

A few sometimes talk about the struggle, but the blowback is pretty harsh if you dare say anything other than “having kids is so great all the time!” as I think we’ve seen even in this thread. So they don’t even make a facebook peep, just a few comments woman to woman where they think someone will listen.

And on the husband side, a lot of men are pained by their wife’s pain and difficulty. They look at her weariness and in misguided kindness think that the solution is to focus on the children in hand and not burden her with additional pregnancies. Sometimes this is actual sterilization, sometimes it’s extended abstinence, and sometimes it’s ABC.

People who haven’t dealt with children who don’t sleep through the night until age 2, or children who walk at six months (this makes a HUGE difference in ability to handle additional kids that are closely spaced, which is more common these days due to later marriage) or kids that are unusually fast, strong, tall, etc should probably rejoice in their great blessings and not label people who have rockier infants and toddlers selfish.

There are cultural differences in complaining. Some cultures use complaining as a way to work through the problem and get to a solution, or acceptance of the situation. Others use complaining for emergencies only and believe in strong and silent until that point. Complaints without context of a person’s background don’t really prove x percentage of child-love or lack of it.

The kids will return when people’s love for each other returns, instead of telling individual families they lack the proper attitude to do it all in isolation and solitude.

 

[Xantippe]

ThePCWife brings up an interesting point regarding complaining.

I’m from a WASP family and my husband is from a more emotionally expressive ethnicity, so we come from very different places, although we have probably converged over the years.

My old pattern of behavior is stifle-stifle-stifle-stifle-BOOOM! and now that I have had time to think about it, it’s not actually a more functional approach than my husband’s pattern.

So I would encourage the less-expressive to not think of themselves as particularly virtuous–they may just be harder to understand.

 

[Xantippe]

The kids will return when people’s love for each other returns, instead of telling individual families they lack the proper attitude to do it all in isolation and solitude.

Yes.

Believe it or not, “Suck it up, buttercup” is not in the Bible.

 

[Allegra]

Complaints without context of a person’s background don’t really prove x percentage of child-love or lack of it.

The kids will return when people’s love for each other returns, instead of telling individual families they lack the proper attitude to do it all in isolation and solitude.

I would go even further and say that a parent’s willingness to voice frustration regarding a difficulty in caring for a child has absolutely zero correspondence to

a) That parent’s ability to solve the problematic situation.

b) That parent’s love for their child.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Just to add my two cents to the original topic, we have five and at my parish we’re now considered one of the largest families. There’s a couple families with more but very few have more than three. We’ve dealt with infertility and miscarriages as well, and have a few friends with fertility issues so I tend not to judge anyone individually. Still, it’s hard not to notice that the families are generally smaller overall, especially since we have a school attached to our parish. Not to mention, of course, just how many have told us they either contracept or “got fixed” so they wouldn’t have more (some who have told us this are couples we barely know, which begs the question of why they’re so eager to share).

At the same time, not seeing children at Mass isn’t particularly odd when you consider how many parishes don’t require families to attend Mass. Technically, our parish requires families to attend at least 50% of the time in order to keep parishioner tuition rates, but there’s enough loopholes and/or families who just refuse that the actual number who attend regularly is embarrassingly low. I’ve heard several times from more than one person that they can count the number of school families who attend every weekend and holy day on one hand and still have fingers left over. I have friends whose schools/parishes don’t have an attendance policy. They never see children other than their own at Mass.

I think these are the two biggest problems behind why people don’t see kids at Mass. I’m sure there are common factors but I’m at a loss for any good solutions.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

1. That aside, let’s be fair to your friend with the sports car.
   –The sports car is in fact much cheaper than children (assuming a mid-five figure car, not a six-figure European luxury car). You could buy a new Mustang every year ($24k) and it would be cheaper than paying for college for a single child. Also, the Mustang doesn’t need to be homeschooled or keep mom from working full-time.
   –He’s paying a lot of taxes.
   –If he is conscientious, he may feel like he should give generously. I would encourage somebody in his shoes to aim for 10% of income in giving.
   –He needs to save for retirement. (Dave Ramsey suggests 15% of income.)
   –If he is a conscientious father, he ought to be saving for college, as his children will be eligible for very little financial aid. 10% would be a good number to aim for.
   –Now, a lot of this stuff is tax-advantaged, but nonetheless you’ll notice that he doesn’t have $120k anymore–he is living on substantially less than that.

If you earn 120k in a year you aren’t going to be paying any federal income tax if you have 6 children to deduct. Just think of all the tax savings this guy is passing up

And I hate to be a downer but I have a friend into sports cars and 24k is closer to what he spends on repairs and entry fees. For example, he is paying 9k to enter Targa NL and that race is for pure fun, no prize to be won. Sports cars are a rich man’s hobby to be sure.

But I’m right there with you scoffing at the idea of 120k being a lot of money to live on. It is difficult to convince a company to give you that much but you will not live extravagantly on that salary by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Allegra]

If you earn 120k in a year you aren’t going to be paying any federal income tax if you have 6 children to deduct. Just think of all the tax savings this guy is passing up

And I hate to be a downer but I have a friend into sports cars and 24k is closer to what he spends on repairs and entry fees. For example, he is paying 9k to enter Targa NL and that race is for pure fun, no prize to be won. Sports cars are a rich man’s hobby to be sure.

But I’m right there with you scoffing at the idea of 120k being a lot of money to live on. It is difficult to convince a company to give you that much but you will not live extravagantly on that salary by any stretch of the imagination.

It’s a lot more than my family lives on.

 

[Allegra]

The kids will return when people’s love for each other returns, instead of telling individual families they lack the proper attitude to do it all in isolation and solitude.

This is great post by the way! Way to own your own thread!

Come to think of it, while the car seat and childcare stuff is still a challenge, a lot of things have gotten easier for parents of young children. It’s a lot easier to find a job that has facilities for milk pumping now. Nearly every restroom has a changing table, even the mens rooms!, and lots of them now have a hang-a-tot seat so mama can use two hands to use the restroom. (I love those things!) The zoo and children’s museums now have a nursing room. The grocery store has all assortments of different carts for different configurations of children and most of the strip malls around here now offer “stork parking”. I don’t think any of that stuff existed when my parents were raising me. If you had a baby back then, you were lucky if you didn’t get fired on the spot from your job.

The real issue probably has more to do with the fact that most mothers are going around on the cusp of a nervous breakdown, not because caring for their children is really so difficult, but because they are under constant, stifling, unrelenting pressure and judgment from society. (and mostly from other women!)