Where are all the large Catholic families?

[larsont7]

So please tell the improverished Filipinos that they should not get married. Why not teach people about NFP? The Church does not say we should not space our children, the Church does not say have babies after babies never mind the health of the mother, never mind the ability or not to feed the existing children.

I must have misunderstood your previous post, as I thought you were suggesting they use other methods of birth control rather than NFP. I guess I should’ve went back and read what Lightbound wrote to you before responding. Mea culpa…

 

[severus68]

I feel that this discussion about my people is an “either/or” than a “both/and” thing going on. It’s sad that it’s based more on stereotypes about my country and my people than anything else. The issue of poverty is not as easy to rationalize nor as simple as most of us even think! Linking it to large families simply because of their size does not take other factors into consideration!

Not trying to stereotype. There is a lot to be admired in the people of the Philippines. The point some of us are making is that it is not quite so simple to tell everyone to have large families. The macho culture and the beating of chests cultures are to be found everywhere in the world.

 

[severus68]

I must have misunderstood your previous post, as I thought you were suggesting they use other methods of birth control rather than NFP. I guess I should’ve went back and read what Lightbound wrote to you before responding. Mea culpa…

This is a Catholic forum and I would not suggest anyone use ABC. Apology accepted.

 

[Crescentinus]

Not trying to stereotype. There is a lot to be admired in the people of the Philippines. The point some of us are making is that it is not quite so simple to tell everyone to have large families. The macho culture and the beating of chests cultures are to be found everywhere in the world.

I agree with you that it’s not simple to tell about having large families.

My problem is this. The idea of being truly macho is not well understood especially in cultures where masculinity had been demonized to the point of sheer recklessness. Another problem is that the media has a bad view of being macho as well, sadly. A truly macho man knows how to value relationships and knows how to be a gentleman.

 

[thewanderer]

I agree with you that it’s not simple to tell about having large families.

My problem is this. The idea of being truly macho is not well understood especially in cultures where masculinity had been demonized to the point of sheer recklessness. Another problem is that the media has a bad view of being macho as well, sadly. A truly macho man knows how to value relationships and knows how to be a gentleman.

Yes, but that is hardly what is meant by the term ‘a macho culture’

 

[severus68]

Yes, but that is hardly what is meant by the term ‘a macho culture’

You beat me to it, . Yes, the adjective “macho” is not meant to be complimentary.

 

[Crescentinus]

You beat me to it, . Yes, the adjective “macho” is not meant to be complimentary.

Question.
Do you want it replaced by a culture where being an effeminate man is seen as a good thing?

 

[Elenorann]

Since there isn’t a shortage of people in this world, I think it is smart not to have large families. I also think people do not have the money to take care of their children.

 

[LightBound]

Question.
Do you want it replaced by a culture where being an effeminate man is seen as a good thing?

I will put my :twocents: in on this and say that I don’t think anyone wants that, but some of these “machismo” cultures need to be way more respectful towards women and see that they are their sisters in Christ, not a doormat that gets stepped on and walked over. That would likely cut down on a lot of domestic abuse (be it physical, verbal, sexual, or emotional/psychological).

 

[Crescentinus]

I will put my :twocents: in on this and say that I don’t think anyone wants that, but some of these “machismo” cultures need to be way more respectful towards women and see that they are their sisters in Christ, not a doormat that gets stepped on and walked over. That would likely cut down on a lot of domestic abuse (be it physical, verbal, sexual, or emotional/psychological).

^In this case, I agree with you here.
However, I am very angry whenever I hear this type of debate about macho (outside of the CAF of course) where people say that having a culture of effeminate men is awesome. If they want to castrate men of their roles and their masculinity, then I’m insulted as a man!

 

[Crescentinus]

Since there isn’t a shortage of people in this world, I think it is smart not to have large families. I also think people do not have the money to take care of their children.

To which I respond, that is the same type of thinking I grew up on.
Honestly, that is an abstraction and a very simplistic way of looking at families in general as well as societies as a whole.

 

[St_Donatus]

^In this case, I agree with you here.
However, I am very angry whenever I hear this type of debate about macho (outside of the CAF of course) where people say that having a culture of effeminate men is awesome. If they want to castrate men of their roles and their masculinity, then I’m insulted as a man!

I have to agree here. Despite its effeminate culture for men in the US (if we generalize about one culture, we might as well generalize about the US too), the US still has a terrible record of abuse toward women, children, and a lively sex trade. Oh yes, we can’t forget drugs and murder as sure proof that the demasculization of men has been so good for the US. Young men in the US have a natural urge to be masculine, yet our society tells them that feminine is better, so they turn to gangs, drugs and violence as the only masculine thing left. We can’t allow men to be men even in the church. Whatever was masculine in the church is no longer, now we have altar girls etc and none of the young men want be altar boys anymore. Then we wonder why young men don’t join the priesthood. Well, the idea of altar boys was to groom young men to be priests (or better spiritual leaders as parents). Now we can’t get men into church at all.

It just seems like women (and even many priests) just don’t understand men and what drives them.

 

[thewanderer]

I have to agree here. Despite its effeminate culture for men in the US (if we generalize about one culture, we might as well generalize about the US too), the US still has a terrible record of abuse toward women, children, and a lively sex trade. Oh yes, we can’t forget drugs and murder as sure proof that the demasculization of men has been so good for the US. Young men in the US have a natural urge to be masculine, yet our society tells them that feminine is better, so they turn to gangs, drugs and violence as the only masculine thing left. We can’t allow men to be men even in the church. Whatever was masculine in the church is no longer, now we have altar girls etc and none of the young men want be altar boys anymore. Then we wonder why young men don’t join the priesthood. Well, the idea of altar boys was to groom young men to be priests (or better spiritual leaders as parents). Now we can’t get men into church at all.

It just seems like women (and even many priests) just don’t understand men and what drives them.

Again, I really don’t think anyone here is saying that we should make men effeminate. We should try to get rid of both machismo and effiminicy as qualities of a society and instead aim for a balanced society which does not place more importance/worth to either sex.

 

[severus68]

I have to agree here. Despite its effeminate culture for men in the US (if we generalize about one culture, we might as well generalize about the US too), the US still has a terrible record of abuse toward women, children, and a lively sex trade. Oh yes, we can’t forget drugs and murder as sure proof that the demasculization of men has been so good for the US. Young men in the US have a natural urge to be masculine, yet our society tells them that feminine is better, so they turn to gangs, drugs and violence as the only masculine thing left. We can’t allow men to be men even in the church. Whatever was masculine in the church is no longer, now we have altar girls etc and none of the young men want be altar boys anymore. Then we wonder why young men don’t join the priesthood. Well, the idea of altar boys was to groom young men to be priests (or better spiritual leaders as parents). Now we can’t get men into church at all.

It just seems like women (and even many priests) just don’t understand men and what drives them.

What a novel excuse for violent behaviour and for taking drugs! You appear to be also saying that the Pope is at least partly to blame for men not going to church, not joining the priesthood, by allowing altar girls.

 

[sainthumbert]

So please tell the improverished Filipinos that they should not get married. Why not teach people about NFP? The Church does not say we should not space our children, the Church does not say have babies after babies never mind the health of the mother, never mind the ability or not to feed the existing children.

Yeah, we need to teach those impoverished Filipinos how to live like Americans. We need to teach them to limit their family sizes so that they can accumulate wealth and possessions rather than just trying to feed their large families.

God has a special love for the poor. The bible is full of examples. We have to remember that a “good life” has nothing to do with how much one owns. It seems that some posters think that one cannot live a “good life” without having a decent standard of living. Don’t you think that God will greatly reward those who continue to have faith in God despite impoverished living conditions. These posters seem to be saying, “Hey poor boy, you would be better off not being born than living in these conditions.” That is sad. That poor boy will be in heaven some day.

 

[thewanderer]

Yeah, we need to teach those impoverished Filipinos how to live like Americans. We need to teach them to limit their family sizes so that they can accumulate wealth and possessions rather than just trying to feed their large families.

God has a special love for the poor. The bible is full of examples. We have to remember that a “good life” has nothing to do with how much one owns. It seems that some posters think that one cannot live a “good life” without having a decent standard of living. Don’t you think that God will greatly reward those who continue to have faith in God despite impoverished living conditions. These posters seem to be saying, “Hey poor boy, you would be better off not being born than living in these conditions.” That is sad. That poor boy will be in heaven some day.

This is ridiculous. Would you refuse to teach a family NFP just because you think that they should continue to have children even if their consciounces tell them they have grave reason to avoid at present? All Severus is saying is that we should teach them NFP so that they can effectively avoid conception whenever they discern that they have a grave reason to avoid. How is that in any way shape or form problematic?

 

[severus68]

Yeah, we need to teach those impoverished Filipinos how to live like Americans. We need to teach them to limit their family sizes so that they can accumulate wealth and possessions rather than just trying to feed their large families.

God has a special love for the poor. The bible is full of examples. We have to remember that a “good life” has nothing to do with how much one owns. It seems that some posters think that one cannot live a “good life” without having a decent standard of living. Don’t you think that God will greatly reward those who continue to have faith in God despite impoverished living conditions. These posters seem to be saying, “Hey poor boy, you would be better off not being born than living in these conditions.” That is sad. That poor boy will be in heaven some day.

I am not American.

How can anyone in good conscience tell the poor, its okay, just suffer now, you will get your reward in heaven. Isn’t that what some Christian told slaves? I do wonder about hungry/starving children (some with with distended bellies) even thinking about God.

Let’s not confuse matters. No one is saying the born should not have been born.

 

[severus68]

Again, I really don’t think anyone here is saying that we should make men effeminate. We should try to get rid of both machismo and effiminicy as qualities of a society and instead aim for a balanced society which does not place more importance/worth to either sex.

Yes.

 

[LightBound]

Yeah, we need to teach those impoverished Filipinos how to live like Americans. We need to teach them to limit their family sizes so that they can accumulate wealth and possessions rather than just trying to feed their large families.

God has a special love for the poor. The bible is full of examples. We have to remember that a “good life” has nothing to do with how much one owns. It seems that some posters think that one cannot live a “good life” without having a decent standard of living. Don’t you think that God will greatly reward those who continue to have faith in God despite impoverished living conditions. These posters seem to be saying, “Hey poor boy, you would be better off not being born than living in these conditions.” That is sad. That poor boy will be in heaven some day.

Insulting the Americans again, I see. You need to stop that now. It’s against forum rules and it’s quite uncharitable!!

Using NFP in accordance with Church teaching has nothing to do with materialism!

In many countries around the world, “third world” or otherwise, women, even in 2012, are dying due to pregnancy-related complications, in childbirth, or shortly afterwards, because their bodies cannot handle another pregnancy. Some don’t have access to appropriate medical care- others have been told by their practitioner not to get pregnant again. Should they just keep getting pregnant because the culture they are in tells the husband to get it whenever he wants and forget about his wife’s health and well-being? The secular world says birth control, sterilization, or abortion in these cases. The Church says NFP!! Take a look over the many threads that have been in the Family and Moral Theology section on CAF since 2004 from women (and their husbands) who have been told another pregnancy is a danger to the woman (or to a baby should one be conceived). This isn’t a problem that presents itself only in certain countries or cultures. These families are advised to thoroughly learn and use NFP. The problem with that is in certain cultures and societies, men are brought up thinking that their libido is paramount over the health and well-being of their family, so unless they are taught NFP, how it really works, and how they must forgo their wants for a short time if the wife is fertile, their attitude and behavior becomes a detriment to authentic Christian marriage and family.

 

[St_Donatus]

What a novel excuse for violent behaviour and for taking drugs! You appear to be also saying that the Pope is at least partly to blame for men not going to church, not joining the priesthood, by allowing altar girls.

I was being a bit over the top on purpose here but believe me, I have seen the difference in the number of young men entering the priesthood where there is are male only alter servers versus both sexes. It really does make a difference. I know our little church of 400 members turns out more priests per member than any other church in the diocese. But who knows, maybe I don’t know what I am talking about being a man and all. It is a proven fact that young men are more interested in ‘manly’ clubs etc. It is part of creating their identity as a man.

I never said it had anything to do with the Pope. The Pope actually prefers having altar boys and other more traditional ways of doing things but he has made allowances for the more liberal ways of us Americans. I just don’t know why since these changes have only brought more problems to the church in the US. I think that across the board, the more liberal the countries Catholic Churches, the worse they are doing spiritually. The US actually has to import priests from Africa, a missionary area, to have enough priests. Not a good sign.

Now why don’t be get back to the question at hand, where are all the large Catholic families?