Where are all the large Catholic families?

[anp1215]

You’re not alone. I will probably get married for the first time after menopause as well…because there is no way I’m going to have a bunch of kids just because others tell me I have to. There is no set number of kids that Catholics are “supposed to” have.

It’s odd to me that some people think you can dupe God. The people who are called to have big families are having them. The people who are called to have smaller families are having them. **If God wants people to have kids, I think His Will is stronger than a pill’s. **And then there are people desperate for a baby who can’t have one despite numerous attempts and all the help the current medical research can provide.

Eh, that’s kind of like saying, “I’m going to keep eating these five cheeseburgers everyday, because if it’s God’s will that I lose weight, I will.”

 

[psr13]

Almost every Catholic that I know in real life, outside of the EF church we go to, practices ABC. They claim they were never taught that the Church says it is wrong to use it, and that the Church really has no problem with Catholics using it.

 

[vera_dicere]

Well, as soon as I find a good, Godly husband, [if marriage is my vocation] I promise you, I’ll be aiming for at least 12+

But yeah, the complete apparentl failure of so many of the clergy to teach against ABC seems to be the issue. I know a lot of Catholics, heaps in my own family, who are all for it. The contraceptive mentality has turned children into the enemy, keeping up with the Joneses in way of fiscal spending and living it up large… needs to be keeping up with the Duggars.

I think there will be a lot of people in Hell because of lazy clergy and pelvic sins.

 

[BernadetteM]

I attend an OF parish, however the EF is celebrated on Sundays and other Holydays.

It is a very traditional parish. Many families range from 5 children to the largest one I am aware of is 15 children.

Our parish has many children and babies. It is lovely to see how reverent even two year olds are while in Mass.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Cat]

Long and short I do think there is a cultural component to it, even if that’s not the only reason.

There is definitely a cultural component.

People in the U.S. are generally not raised with the concept of “large family, many children.” We don’t know how to do it.

I know that sounds silly, but it’s true. I think that in the past, B.C. (before contraception) became “acceptable,” most families trained their children how to bring up children. Older children were expected to help out with childcare. Also, B.C., mothers knew HOW to cook for many children–I am so used to cooking “21st Century,” where a meal consists of a low-starch piece of meat or some other proteint, and plain vegetables, and that’s IT–no carbs. And I, like many people my age (54) grew up eating at home, but beginning in the 1980s, we started eating out because we got so busy.

The busy-ness–that’s something that so many families, including mine, just accept as normal life. But I can’t imagine large families being on the run every afternoon, evening, and weekend. I’ve known figure skating families with five children on the ice–I can’t even imagine the expense and the travelling!

Speaking of “on the run,” I can’t imagine how large families do the cars, considering that all the children under eight, or of small stature, have to be in car seats and booster seats!

And sleep time–again, this is not something that I was raised with. My brother and I went to bed at 6:00 p.m. when we were small–that was bedtime, and we didn’t even dream of questioning it. But how do large families get everyone settled down for the night, and deal with all the feeding, bathing, etc. issues?

And television–in the past, when I was growing up, family programming ended at 8:00 p.m., and the television in our house went off, except on Saturday nights for Jackie Gleason and Gunsmoke. But nowadays, there are so many options, and there is the option of no television, but I really like television and think that there are still lots of good options for children if you make use of DVDs. So how does that work with so many children in the family? At my sister in law’s house, her three boys are constantly jostling for their programs-it’s chaos.

The biggest issue, IMO, is budgeting. Without the second income, I’m not sure how a large family makes it unless the working parent makes a large income. There is a family in our parish with ten children, and Daddy is a medical doctor, so they aren’t hurting. But how does someone with an average income, which in our city is around $30,000/year, going to survive? I know, it can be done, but most of us don’t know how.

In the past, there were so many large families that people just all kind of picked these skills up (except for the driving with carseats) as they grew up. And so they were prepared to have children themselves and raise them. But that’s not the case nowadays. From birth, most of us are raised in small families, and that’s what we know.

As for the association of sex with children–this is a very strange concept for many Americans, who in the last 50 years have become accustomed to the teaching that sex is for a couple (not necessarily a man and a woman) to express love for each other. That’s what I grew up with. I think that if we are going to see large families again, we have to somehow swim upstream from everyone else, and somehow manage to flood the church with the teaching that sex is for unitive and procreative purposes. But I think that many people are completely closed to this teaching, and I’m not sure what can be done to reverse the mindset that most of us have been indoctrinated with since birth. Just ranting againt “modernism” or “Protestantism” isn’t going to be a good approach. I think the best approach is to somehow emphasize the natural rhythms of a woman’s body–a lot of people nowadays are into wholistic, natural health. I see that there is now a book called “Green Sex,” (or something like that) which I think is a brilliant approach to helping people re-do their thinking about sex.

 

[Cider]

You’re not alone. I will probably get married for the first time after menopause as well…because there is no way I’m going to have a bunch of kids just because others tell me I have to. There is no set number of kids that Catholics are “supposed to” have.

It’s odd to me that some people think you can dupe God.

As if making the decision to not marry until after menopause is not an attempt to dupe God and his plan for your family?

 

[TrueLight]

As if making the decision to not marry until after menopause is not an attempt to dupe God and his plan for your family?

If God has a mate in mind for her, there is nothing she will be able to do to not get married.

I do not think it sinful to choose to stay single so as not to sin. Just as it is not sinful to use NFP to “space” children.

There is nothing sinful about abstinence.

 

[Cider]

If God has a mate in mind for her, there is nothing she will be able to do to not get married.

We have free will, of course people do say no to God.

 

[TrueLight]

We have free will, of course people do say no to God.

Ha ha. Alrighty then.

You can choose to not accept dates or suitors (love that old fashioned term) and focus on your life in Christ.

That’s what I’m doing at this point.

 

[manualman]

Speaking of “on the run,” I can’t imagine how large families do the cars, considering that all the children under eight, or of small stature, have to be in car seats and booster seats!

I can answer that (lots of friends and family with kids galore).

6 or less kids (5 or less works better here): 8 passenger minivan with roof box for longer road trips.

6 or more kids: Full size pasenger van (come in 12 and 15 passenger sizes). These are actually pretty readily available on the used market if you don’t mind a former rental. They’re low tech vehicles, cheap and easy to repair, but hard on the gas budget.

Kids 4 and up are big enough to buckle themselves. Kids 8 and up are responsible for helping those under 4 buckle in. The no whining rule applies.

 

[Alistair_DB]

Can we get some reasons in here that, oh, aren’t hurting, assuming and pious?

Ever think that maybe, MAYBE, some of those smallers families are small for a reason? Maybe the family lives paycheck to paycheck, and despite amazingly careful budgeting, can barely afford their grocery bills every month?

What about a family who DOES love children, but realize after 2 or 3 that they really, truly, prayerfully and honestly can not emotionally handle anymore? Some men and women can managae of a family of 9, but not everyone has the same psychogoligcal steadiness, patience or emotional resources to handle more, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think it takes a lot of bravery for a child loving family to be able to ADMIT that maybe they’re at their limit, at least for a time.

This is the situation my wife and I are in. she has 6 brothers and sisters, I have FIFTEEN. We love kids. Once we had our own place (we had to live with my parents at first, due to, let’s hear it, changed circumstances) and started making more than $80 a week, we stopped using NFP. Several years later we have three beautiful children, but we know we can’t do anymore, at least for some time. NO, we DON’T go on European vacations, hire a home decorator or buy the fanciest cars and electronics. We live by a budget, one that barely covers, and my wife is the one who tends the children most of the day, and she’s completely at her end. I look at her bursting into hysterical tears because she’s so exhausted and stressed and having an anxiety attack, and I couldn’t possibly imagine adding another newborn right now (and before anyone gets smart, yes, I DO help, as do my inlaws, but there’s only so much you can do)

Many people DO have just reasons for using NFP, and it doesn’t have to involve being on your deathbed. Peoples circumstances change constantly, and it isn’t your place to look at a small family and assume.

Now, granted, that doesn’t give small families a right to look at your loving lot and judge either. But the amont of children someone has doesn’t make them any more or less Catholic than any other.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry if it appears I am baiting, as that’s not the case, but anyway you have given a very good answer.

I’m sorry to hear your family is “frowned upon” by other Catholic families, but it confirms what also happens in my neck of the woods, away from our parish. We are very fortunate that our parish has it’s own school, but before that our kids attended a public school and, like you, we were seen as the “weirdos”. Very sad really, especially coming from other Catholics, moreso when they themselves have come from a large family.

In our parish we often hear the comments that children are a gift from God, and we gladly accept how ever many He chooses to give us. A beautiful sentiment, and the opposite of your observations that people no longer trust God to provide for them.

Ps 127:3-5

3 Lo, sons are a heritage from the LORD,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior
are the sons of one’s youth.
5 Happy is the man who has
his quiver full of them!
He shall not be put to shame
when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

Ps 128:3-6

3 Your wife will be like a fruitful vine
within your house;
your children will be like olive shoots
around your table.
4 Lo, thus shall the man be blessed
who fears the LORD.

5 The LORD bless you from Zion!
May you see the prosperity of Jerusalem
all the days of your life!
6 May you see your children’s children!
Peace be upon Israel!

 

[zab]

Many people DO have just reasons for using NFP, and it doesn’t have to involve being on your deathbed. Peoples circumstances change constantly, and it isn’t your place to look at a small family and assume.

Now, granted, that doesn’t give small families a right to look at your loving lot and judge either. But the amont of children someone has doesn’t make them any more or less Catholic than any other.

And that is the sum of it. There is uncharitableness on both sides. But there is also understanding on both sides and I’m guessing that many of those would rather not get into this conversation at all.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Here’s a thought that I always found interesting. Of the families in the Bible, the only ones with many children are polygamous. Noah and his wife had 3, Lot had 2,even among the disciples we only hear of 1 brother or 2. Now obviously there may have been more children, but history only preserves those.

I also read a very interesting article about how contraceptives came to be accepted among protestants – it was through the clergy. As life changed away from an agricultural basis, it became harder and harder for large families. Anglican clergy were finding it difficult to afford a large family, especially since it wasn’t easy for the pastor’s wife to get a job! Once clergy began using contraceptives it was near impossible for them to teach their flock not to.

The common mindset now in secular society (and those who are not well catechized) that babies are expensive (much more so than any Anglican priest would have said in the 1920s) and that the get in the way of the parents’ lifestyle, is just so so sad. But to assume that families you see at Mass have that same secular mindset is not right. We should always assume the best about those in church with us.

 

[Rence]

As if making the decision to not marry until after menopause is not an attempt to dupe God and his plan for your family?

It’s not an attempt at anything, it’s just the way things are working out, and it happens to be perfectly fine with me. I am also within the teachings of the Church by doing so. If God wanted me to be married by now, I’d have already be married by now.

 

[Rence]

Ha ha. Alrighty then.

You can choose to not accept dates or suitors (love that old fashioned term) and focus on your life in Christ.

That’s what I’m doing at this point.

Right. Circumstances come in all forms and may prevent the acceptance of dates or suitors. When and if the right one comes alone, it will be God’s Will and It Will be Done. In my case, it won’t be until after menopause. How can it be? I’m almost there as it is. If I was trying to dupe God, I would have already been artificially inseminated and skipped the marriage part.

 

[Cider]

Except you weren’t talking about circumstances as they come to you. As I quoted you, you said

I will probably get married for the first time after menopause as well…because there is no way I’m going to have a bunch of kids just because others tell me I have to.

 

[Rence]

Except you weren’t talking about circumstances as they come to you. As I quoted you, you said

What I said was true, there’s no way I’m having a bunch of kids. Not at my age. And it’s not required of me by the Church either. And it’s also true that circumstances have brought me to the conclusion that I probably will be married after menopause, and I’m okay with that.

However, if someone waits until after menopause to get married purposely, they are still within the teachings of the Church. Being post menopausal is not an impediment to marriage.

 

[domandcarols]

I only have one sister but my girlfriend is from a family of five, and most of the Catholic families I know have an average of 4-8 kids. A girl down the street is from a family of 9. Both my parents are from families of 7. I don’t think there’s a lack of big families… At least where I’m from…

 

[Cat]

Well, as soon as I find a good, Godly husband, [if marriage is my vocation] I promise you, I’ll be aiming for at least 12+

But yeah, the complete apparentl failure of so many of the clergy to teach against ABC seems to be the issue. I know a lot of Catholics, heaps in my own family, who are all for it. The contraceptive mentality has turned children into the enemy, keeping up with the Joneses in way of fiscal spending and living it up large… needs to be keeping up with the Duggars.

I think there will be a lot of people in Hell because of lazy clergy and pelvic sins.

I’m glad you are open to having many children. Now that we are older, my husband and I wish that we could have had more children.

I’m a 54 year old mother of two grown daughters. I just want to caution you and other young women who have not married yet.

Sometimes women want to have many babies, but then reality hits when they get pregnant and give birth.

Many women discover that pregnancy, for them, is a misery. They are sick throughout the pregnancy, or they acquire gestational diabetes, which is a little scary. Or they develop a physical condition that requires absolute bedrest for several months, which of course means quitting a job, and that means a significant loss of income. Or they swell, or they have heartburn, or they hurt all the time. Pregnancy is generally a healthy condition for women, but it is not always pleasant, and for some women, it is just plain awful.

Some women gain a tremendous amount of weight and never seem to be able to lose it, in spite of their best efforts. After a few babies, they are dangerously obese. (This was my situation, BTW, and only in the last few years have I been able to lose around 85 pounds to date. I still have about 30 pounds to go to get to a “normal” weight.)

Some women have C-sections, and even though there are women who defy the traditional medical approach that >4 Cs is dangerous, many women discover that two C-sections is about all their abdominal muscles will tolerate. People on this thread are making comments that God can defy the Pill and give a couple a baby anyway, and I agree. But I also agree with others who say that we can’t eat 5 cheeseburgers a day and expect God to help us lose weight. In the same way, when a woman defies medical advice and gets pregnant after having several Cs, she is definitely challenging nature and the human body. Should she really expect God to take care of her and the baby?

I’m just mentioning a few things here. There are many other physical conditions that make pregnancy and birth not as easy as some young women think it should be.

Another tragic occurrence is when women suffer from repeated miscarriages. This is so heartbreaking for a couple, and it really makes it difficult for them to keep trying month after month to get pregnant, only to see their little ones die.

And then there are the issues AFTER giving birth. Many women have babies who eventually sleep through the night and grow up sweet and happy. But many other women have babies who cry continuously ,spit up, suffer from repeated ailments like congestion, ear infections, reflux, diarrhea, etc. And some women have babies who have serious medical issues from birth, or birth defects, or challenging conditions like Downs.

I’m not saying all this to scare young women away from getting pregnant. It’s amazing how women can call upon reserves of strength and God’s graces to help them through any situation, especially when it comes to motherhood and childrearing.

But to call upon those reserves many many times, up to 12 children–that’s tough. There are women who have done it, and perhaps you are one of those strong women with a deep faith in God’s sustaining power.

But please understand that many women do not have that kind of strength, or that much faith in God. Many women (and their husbands) choose NOT to have more children for the reasons that I listed above, or for other equally serious reasons.

I hope that everyone on this thread will not condemn these women or label them “poor Catholics” or “post Vatican II modernists” or any other derogatory labels. Conceiving, giving birth to, and raising children is probably the most serious task that human beings do here on this earth, other than receiving Jesus in Holy Mass.

We need to respect the way other couples choose to approach the very serious business of having children, and do whatever we can to offer support to ALL families, large and small. Until we have lived in someone else’s body, we really shouldn’t judge women who make a different decision than we make.