S
SentimentalGent
Guest
Absolutely right, Victorious!
Thanks for the additions.
- Status
Thanks for the additions.
S
Saint_Michael
Guest
Related to this topic, I read in the New York Post today that American men’s testoterone has dropped 5% since 1980. Not only are men being feminized in Church but society in general, we are actually slowly morphing from men to women…
P
puzzleannie
Guest
EMHCs, lay readers, lay women directors of religious education, lay teachers in Catholic schools etc. are the symptom, not the reason for the decline in religious vocations. The reason for the lack of vocations is quite easy to discern and was prophesied by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae. As Catholic parents embrace the contraceptive mentality preached by the culture of death and regard children as a burden rather than a blessing, they also lose the spirituality of family and marriage that encourages parents to raise children in an atmosphere of fidelity, service, commitment, and trust in God. They have no motivation to teach their children to respond to a radical call from God since they themselves have not embraced the radical nature of the true marriage vocation.
Of course this has led to smaller families and a smaller pool of Catholic children from whom potential vocations emerge.
When Catholic families and Catholic marriages are good and solid and welcome and rear children in Christ’s values rather than in society’s values, those families will produce vocations.
R
Rara_Avis
Guest
Yes let’s talk about the Saints! Instead of disregarding them and brushing them aside like VII has been doing for the last 40 yrs.
St. John De Breuf was murdered and had his heart ripped out so the Natives could eat it … why? because they couldn’t get over his strength and courage.
how bout St. Francis Xavier … risking death in the Chinese Junk boats by tossing the false idols overboard rather than offend God.
In my view these great man and many many more like them faced death rather than offend God or worship false gods. I think if they came back and saw the shape of the church they gave their lives for - they wouldn’t have to be killed they’d die of a heart attack!
R
Rara_Avis
Guest
Yes let’s talk about the Saints! Instead of disregarding them and brushing them aside like VII has been doing for the last 40 yrs.
St. John De Breuf was murdered and had his heart ripped out so the Natives could eat it … why? because they couldn’t get over his strength and courage.
how bout St. Francis Xavier … risking death in the Chinese Junk boats by tossing the false idols overboard rather than offend God.
In my view these great man and many many more like them faced death rather than offend God or worship false gods. I think if they came back and saw the shape of the church they gave their lives for - they wouldn’t have to be killed they’d die of a heart attack!
P
puzzleannie
Guest
I think this is more than an urban legend, I thing there is a lot of truth in it. Whether it is hormones in the milk or the domination of popular culture by the gay lib mentors I can’t say, but I can repeat what I have heard over and over again by men of my generation and my brothers’ generation (40something to 60 something). Many Catholic men who would otherwise have been attracted to the priesthood or to lay ministry of some kind have been turned off by effeminite priests who produce an environment that is uncongenial and off-putting to a normal heterosexual male. Documented here and elsewhere amply are stories of men who have left the seminary because they could not tolerate the gay-friendly culture they encountered. Thankfully that describes on some, not all seminaries, and many brave strong normal men were able to overcome these challenges and persist in their vocations, but we may never know how many were lost.Related to this topic, I read in the New York Post today that American men’s testoterone has dropped 5% since 1980. Not only are men being feminized in Church but society in general, we are actually slowly morphing from men to women…
M
mtk76
Guest
I too agree the interesting question is how did it get this way. I think the poster who said the contraceptive mentality is a big part of it is dead on and that this too is a symptom of a greater problem. In my mind the contraceptive attitude is a me first attitude vs. a God first attitude. It is just a symptom that the devil is likely using Secularism, Materialism, and an overall attitude of indifferrance as a very poweful weapon against us and many of us have bought into the desire to live our heaven here on earth(and this is a struggle we will likely all fight to some extent). America not only has a culture of death but one of entitlement and desire to fit in and have what everyone else has. If people believe in service at all anymore it is often service of country vs service to the living God.
[SIGN]The more important question is probably not whether this phenomenon exists…but rather, how did it get this way?[/SIGN]
[SIGN]The more important question is probably not whether this phenomenon exists…but rather, how did it get this way?[/SIGN]
R
rpp
Guest
I have made an observation that is common in these types of discussions.
“It can’t be [insert your cherished innovation here], it has to be something else.”
This oversimplifies the issue to point of meaninglessness.
Do altar-girls cause men to leave the Church? Do all the EMHCs and Lay Ecclesial Minister cause a drop in vocations, be they women or men? Does it really matter which direction the priest faces when he says the consecration?
And so on and so on…
The problem is that each of these innovations affects some people negatively.
Little boys do not want to be like little girls and would sooner have both legs broken, each week for 10 years, than be accused of doing something “girly”. (At least boys who will father children rather than vote “Yes” for gay marriage.)
While parents may be able to successfully convince them it is not girly, the ones who do participate do not see a good example of proper gender roles as it relates to liturgical or clerical practice. Thus those who may be called may not be able to hear the call. This applies to both women and men. The decline in vocation has affected women too. Scratch one, possibly two vocations.
Again, these do not apply to all, but certainly has an impact to some.
The explosion of lay ministers, be they EMHCs or whatever, even, to a limited, but perceptible degree, lectors has, I think also had a chilling effect on vocations. “Why give up all those earthly comforts?” says a well-meaning, devout, yet not properly formed young man. “I can serve God as a lector, I can distribute Holy Communion, and I can work in the church as the Liturgical Director or Youth minister. I can even do sick calls at the hospital. Why the only things I can’t do consecrate the offering hear confessions (who wants to anyway) and marry people. You know, I don’t think the priest actually does that much. No, I think I am going to be software engineer instead and make a six-figures salary by the time I’m 30. Then I can serve God with my wallet too.”
Scratch another priest.
This same man two years later is shacking-up with his college girlfriend, and hasn’t been to Mass for a year.
The fact that churches (and whole diocese too) with a more traditional approach to things generate dramatically more vocations is a statistic that cannot be ignored. You may try to explain it away, but you cannot remain intellectually honest and ignore it.
TGhese are just two exaples of how modern innovations affect people. (By the way, I am using the word “innovation” intentionally and mean it in the theological sense.)
Again, we must ask ourselves. “Since men are leaving the church and women are not, what are women doing to cause this and what must women do and **not do **to stop this flood and bring men back?”
“It can’t be [insert your cherished innovation here], it has to be something else.”
This oversimplifies the issue to point of meaninglessness.
Do altar-girls cause men to leave the Church? Do all the EMHCs and Lay Ecclesial Minister cause a drop in vocations, be they women or men? Does it really matter which direction the priest faces when he says the consecration?
And so on and so on…
The problem is that each of these innovations affects some people negatively.
Little boys do not want to be like little girls and would sooner have both legs broken, each week for 10 years, than be accused of doing something “girly”. (At least boys who will father children rather than vote “Yes” for gay marriage.)
While parents may be able to successfully convince them it is not girly, the ones who do participate do not see a good example of proper gender roles as it relates to liturgical or clerical practice. Thus those who may be called may not be able to hear the call. This applies to both women and men. The decline in vocation has affected women too. Scratch one, possibly two vocations.
Again, these do not apply to all, but certainly has an impact to some.
The explosion of lay ministers, be they EMHCs or whatever, even, to a limited, but perceptible degree, lectors has, I think also had a chilling effect on vocations. “Why give up all those earthly comforts?” says a well-meaning, devout, yet not properly formed young man. “I can serve God as a lector, I can distribute Holy Communion, and I can work in the church as the Liturgical Director or Youth minister. I can even do sick calls at the hospital. Why the only things I can’t do consecrate the offering hear confessions (who wants to anyway) and marry people. You know, I don’t think the priest actually does that much. No, I think I am going to be software engineer instead and make a six-figures salary by the time I’m 30. Then I can serve God with my wallet too.”
Scratch another priest.
This same man two years later is shacking-up with his college girlfriend, and hasn’t been to Mass for a year.
The fact that churches (and whole diocese too) with a more traditional approach to things generate dramatically more vocations is a statistic that cannot be ignored. You may try to explain it away, but you cannot remain intellectually honest and ignore it.
TGhese are just two exaples of how modern innovations affect people. (By the way, I am using the word “innovation” intentionally and mean it in the theological sense.)
Again, we must ask ourselves. “Since men are leaving the church and women are not, what are women doing to cause this and what must women do and **not do **to stop this flood and bring men back?”
M
mtk76
Guest
I find this to be rather poor logic although I do agree with some of what you said before that. Why logically must we conclude that women are doing something to cause the men to leave based on what you have there? Speaking as a man it is much more likely men are falling away due to their own laziness and worldliness and dare I say maybe many don’t have a personal relationship with Christ than the women doing something to cause them to leave. A true man as you are fond of saying would deal proactively with the situation and help be part of the solution not head for the hills. Manly men take responsibility and underatand that they play a major part in their lot for ETERNITY and respond to the love of our Lord. Heaven just might not be as easy to get in as a lot of people seem to think these days and we are called to be both pure and holy. I myself am not as pure as I need to be and need to take responsibility for that and remember that It is indeed the pure at heart that SEE God.
[SIGN]Again, we must ask ourselves. “Since men are leaving the church and women are not, what are women doing to cause this and what must women do and not do to stop this flood and bring men back?”[/SIGN]
[SIGN]Again, we must ask ourselves. “Since men are leaving the church and women are not, what are women doing to cause this and what must women do and not do to stop this flood and bring men back?”[/SIGN]
P
proud2bcatholic
Guest
R
rpp
Guest
I agree with much of what you have said. Men need to develop a more spiritual outlook and take responsibility for their souls and the souls of their family.
But before you can run, you have to walk.
That is the dilema. Men are turned-off, driven away by an effeminante atmosphere. They do not have the chance to learn to “walk”. Call it male ego, chauvinism, lack oif sensitivity, whatever, men are leaving. Perhaps it isd just immature men (read: young) and men who are spiritually immature in one area or another, does that make them less valuable? Does that mean it is somehow their fault?
I do no believe so.
In the last generation, the Church, particularly in the USA, introduced many changes in the liturgy and even the Scripture to address radical feminism. Yes, even English translations of Holy Scripture were altered to use “inclusive” language. Many people, particularly men, but humble women as well, are uncomfortable the wholesale removal of “man” and “men” from sacred texts, to be replace with such terms as “human beings”.
Can you blame a spiritually immature man for not wanting to convince his son to be an altar server because the boy thinks it is “for sissies”. Can you blame this same man for being uncomfortable when Maud grabs the sacred Chalice from the priest and starts passing out Holy Communion then cleans it up afterwards? Can you understand his confusion about what a priest is supposed to do to begin with?
The issue here is not about what spiritually mature men do, it is about what spiritually immature men do. We seem to be able to attract, keep and grow spiritually immature women into something more. Why can we not seem to do that for men?
M
mtk76
Guest
RPP,
Interesting ideas definately made me think about what you are saying at a little bit deeper level.
I am primarily going off by my experience in my journey from a cradle Catholic who was indifferent to the faith (ie spiritually immature or worse) to where I am today (Growing in the Lord and trying to do his will). For me personally it had nothing to do about what you have said (although for some perhaps it does) but I was caught up with things of this world things like money, power, “being somebody”, attracting the attention of women, partying etc, basically earthly pleasures that lead to destruction of the soul. It was nothing external or what women were doing but all internal and my own immorality and lack of faithfulness/zeal, and in fact I did not know Jesus at all. This did not change until I had a personal encounter with Christ when I was very troubled after a failed relationship and began questioning the meaning of life. It had to be tangible and I needed to have that personal relationship with Jesus (ie perhaps I was like Thomas needing to touch Jesus’ side) for me to accept the truth and act on it.
Interesting ideas definately made me think about what you are saying at a little bit deeper level.
I am primarily going off by my experience in my journey from a cradle Catholic who was indifferent to the faith (ie spiritually immature or worse) to where I am today (Growing in the Lord and trying to do his will). For me personally it had nothing to do about what you have said (although for some perhaps it does) but I was caught up with things of this world things like money, power, “being somebody”, attracting the attention of women, partying etc, basically earthly pleasures that lead to destruction of the soul. It was nothing external or what women were doing but all internal and my own immorality and lack of faithfulness/zeal, and in fact I did not know Jesus at all. This did not change until I had a personal encounter with Christ when I was very troubled after a failed relationship and began questioning the meaning of life. It had to be tangible and I needed to have that personal relationship with Jesus (ie perhaps I was like Thomas needing to touch Jesus’ side) for me to accept the truth and act on it.
C
CatholicMetis
Guest
Or could it be the men need to take a look at what is wrong with them? If your answer to all the problems in this world is to leave the Church then it’s YOU that has the problem and not the women. If men are leaving the Church it’s because they have lost focus on what the Mass is all about…Jesus. Who cares who is doing what? If men don’t want women doing these positions then maybe instead of cutting and running like a Democrat you should maybe volunteer so the priests don’t have to rely on the women like they do.
D
Dr.Bombay
Guest
I doubt most of the women prancing around the sanctuary are Republicans. That’s just a wild guess…
P
PerkyCurlz
Guest
What are we women supposed to do??? Knock men over the head and drag them to mass??? http://www.smiling-faces.com/babies/caveman.gif My parents always taught me that you can’t make anyone do anything - they have to want to do it themselves. And why blame the women and suggest that they are doing something wrong???
It didn’t fly in the Garden of Eden when Adam blamed Eve, and it won’t fly now!If men don’t like women serving at mass, then they need to get over it and step up and be MEN. They need to stop being wimps and start being the leaders they are meant to be. Until those men step up, they have no right to complain.
For what it’s worth, I would gladly stop give up being a reader and occasionally serving as an EMHC if the men in my parish would just step up and take the lead.
S
Saint_Michael
Guest
Honestly the situation is past being able to be fixed, so my options now are to go to Sunday Mass, shut up, labor through some hymns I couldn’t possibly sing, and leave. And when my son is asked to be an altar server I’ll tell him it’s for the girls now, fitting in is important join the baseball or footbal teams with your friends. And if he thinks about discerning a vocation, I’ll have him read goodbye good men and tell him not to bother your kind isn’t welcome at many seminaries, get married and have kids instead. It may seem harsh but this is the state of our church. It is what it is…What are we women supposed to do??? Knock men over the head and drag them to mass??? http://www.smiling-faces.com/babies/caveman.gif My parents always taught me that you can’t make anyone do anything - they have to want to do it themselves. And why blame the women and suggest that they are doing something wrong???
If men don’t like women serving at mass, then they need to get over it and step up and be MEN. They need to stop being wimps and start being the leaders they are meant to be. Until those men step up, they have no right to complain.
For what it’s worth, I would gladly stop give up being a reader and occasionally serving as an EMHC if the men in my parish would just step up and take the lead.
V
valient_Lucy
Guest
Actually, I’m a woman, and I can’t stand the newer style hymns or holding hands during the Our Father.
Still, the presence of women in the church probably don’t help men to be involved in the church.
“We’re a generation of men raised by women; and I’m starting to wonder if another woman is really the answer we’re looking for.”
Tyler Durden.
I think that the lack of women in the Church is symptomatic of the lack of men in society. Men have been abandoned by their fathers and coddled by their mothers. I’m 23, and I guarantee you then men in my generation would be a lot better if the men of my parents’ generation had beaten them. But hey, it’s not too late. Please, all of the older men out there, do the young men in my generation a favor. Hit them, as hard as you can.
D
Dr.Bombay
Guest
C
chicago
Guest
Of course, if women really wanted tof orce the issue, they could just all quit their assisting positions and tell the men, “Ok, your turn!”
J
JButky
Guest
Let’s take this one specific as a general example…
Many men don’t want to be EMHC’s when they see the the priest inviting a ton of people up (yes mostly women) to gather around the altar during mass, face the “audience”, and hold hands from the Our Father on as part of being an EMHC!
Despite the dilemna of having that practice even existing when it’s not supposed to, whether the men realize it’s appropriateness or not, it still means they are not going to be part of that.
Then, when men with fortitude approach the priest to point stuff like that out, they are told to go away…The real men have no choice than to simply attend and suffer through the whole thing because there is no where else to go.
Is it possible that the more orthodox parishes have no problem attracting men because stuff like this is less likely to happen? It seems that the “less likely to follow the rules” places which are more widespread equates to this effeminate style of worship and actually shuns men from participating on many levels.
We use the terms male and female in this discussion substituting the gender association with the level of orthodoxy. Women would obviously have less of a problem becoming involved as a result because they would be more embraced by authority if that condition is the norm whereas men would be shunned as a result.
I’m beginning to think that is probably the most likely scenario…
Joe B
- Status