Where are the organists coming from?

[ArthurQArch]

My mom was an organist for our parish back home is Kansas from age 16 to age 78 (62 yrs), which was last September when she died. There is only one other organist, so she now has to play all the Masses.
My mom owned a music shop when I was young, and offered many times to give me lessons, but I was too busy with other activities (sports). I regret that very much. I think the vast majority of kids today are even more involved than activities that in my day, so the future prospects may be dim.
However, I believe that more families are starting to see the false god that sports have become, and that may bode well. So who knows?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

My mom was an organist for our parish back home is Kansas from age 16 to age 78 (62 yrs), which was last September when she died. There is only one other organist, so she now has to play all the Masses.
My mom owned a music shop when I was young, and offered many times to give me lessons, but I was too busy with other activities (sports). I regret that very much. I think the vast majority of kids today are even more involved than activities that in my day, so the future prospects may be dim.
However, I believe that more families are starting to see the** false god that sports have become**, and that may bode well. So who knows?

Woah there! Let’s not start bashing athletics. There’s value in athletics for children and there is value in music for children. A good friend of mine is a piano teacher and her best students are the ones who also play a sport. They organize their time better, and understand the value of practice. Both music and sports teach children discipline.

Ok, sorry to go off topic there, but I felt that really needed to be said before it went any further.

 

[ArthurQArch]

Woah there! Let’s not start bashing athletics. There’s value in athletics for children and there is value in music for children. A good friend of mine is a piano teacher and her best students are the ones who also play a sport. They organize their time better, and understand the value of practice. Both music and sports teach children discipline.

Ok, sorry to go off topic there, but I felt that really needed to be said before it went any further.

Where do you get “bashing athletics” from my post? My kids get to choose one athletic activity as well as taking piano lessons. But athletics, in point of fact, have become the end-all be-all of our society. Do you seriously argue this point?

 

[SMHW]

One should volunteer to play the organ for the church and accept what payment they offer. It’s a volunteer position just like singing in the choir. I realize it requires a full time person and in many respects it’s a full time job, but never does it offer a full time pay and never should one expect to make a living from it.

For someone to volunteer to do a full time job he must have the means to educate himself to do the job and then support himself, his spouse, and his children while he does that full time job.

And hence, no organists. There are not nearly enough independently wealthy people who are interested in playing the organ (well) for free.

 

[Don9of11]

I think that mentality above shows how little respect people give to church musicians.

Our organist/music director plays 3 masses over the weekend and maybe a wedding if there is one. Sometimes he plays for all the masses over the weekend and sometimes he’s not there, which is usually because he goes home to visit with his relatives. But lets say he played for the daily masses morning and evening, and a choir rehearsal once a week. You’re still only talking about 20 hours at most during a week. You can’t honestly expect to make a living on 20 hours a week. I concede that this is the situation at our parish and maybe it’s not typical.

I have a lot of respect for musicians so don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I know it takes a lot of time and talent and you should get paid for it, but the reality is that it’s not going to happen. Most parishes simply can’t afford it. Besides all that volunteer work is going to payoff one day right? Treasures in heaven and all that jazz

 

[Cat]

Our organist/music director plays 3 masses over the weekend and maybe a wedding if there is one. Sometimes he plays for all the masses over the weekend and sometimes he’s not there, which is usually because he goes home to visit with his relatives. But lets say he played for the daily masses morning and evening, and a choir rehearsal once a week. You’re still only talking about 20 hours at most during a week. You can’t honestly expect to make a living on 20 hours a week. I concede that this is the situation at our parish and maybe it’s not typical.

I have a lot of respect for musicians so don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I know it takes a lot of time and talent and you should get paid for it, but the reality is that it’s not going to happen. Most parishes simply can’t afford it. Besides all that volunteer work is going to payoff one day right? Treasures in heaven and all that jazz

It will also “pay off” with estranged families. When you are the organist or pianist at church, you usually don’t sit with your family because you need to concentrate on the Mass.

You can make a living doing music with 20 hours a week of church music if you are allowed to teach private lessons, get involved with community orchestras and band (conducting, playing an instrument), get involved with various community musical activities (e.g., community theater, community opera, etc.), adjudicate various music competitions, both school and private, write music and publish it, do arrangements, write jingles for local companies who advertise on the radio or TV, accompanying work if you play piano (hardly a week goes by that I am not accompanying someone or something), doing nightclub gigs, etc. There are lots of ways for a musician to make a living from his/her music. You’ll never be rich in money, but you will survive.

But for many musicians, church music is satisfying to the soul. It’s our chance to offer back our musical talents to God Who gave them to us.

Many church organists/pianists are school teachers (they don’t work weekends, so they are free to play at church).

 

[Bluegoat]

Our organist/music director plays 3 masses over the weekend and maybe a wedding if there is one. Sometimes he plays for all the masses over the weekend and sometimes he’s not there, which is usually because he goes home to visit with his relatives. But lets say he played for the daily masses morning and evening, and a choir rehearsal once a week. You’re still only talking about 20 hours at most during a week. You can’t honestly expect to make a living on 20 hours a week. I concede that this is the situation at our parish and maybe it’s not typical.

I have a lot of respect for musicians so don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I know it takes a lot of time and talent and you should get paid for it, but the reality is that it’s not going to happen. Most parishes simply can’t afford it. Besides all that volunteer work is going to payoff one day right? Treasures in heaven and all that jazz

20 hours a week is a part time job. A few of them make up a living for a musician. No one would think of hiring a secretary or part time priest without pay - which isn’t to say that people who can shouldn’t volunteer their services. But people need to feed themselves and their families.

Lots of little churches have never been able to afford professional musicians. Many have had services without music, or just sung by a choir, or with a volunteer to play organ. There isn’t anything wrong with that.

But at larger churches, they have always been paid, to perform, direct, and compose. That is where all that beautiful church music comes from.

 

[Sarabande]

Our organist/music director plays 3 masses over the weekend and maybe a wedding if there is one. Sometimes he plays for all the masses over the weekend and sometimes he’s not there, which is usually because he goes home to visit with his relatives. But lets say he played for the daily masses morning and evening, and a choir rehearsal once a week. You’re still only talking about 20 hours at most during a week. You can’t honestly expect to make a living on 20 hours a week. I concede that this is the situation at our parish and maybe it’s not typical.

This is where the misunderstanding is with the amount of work a professional musician does. It may be 20 hours at the church physically, but think of the 20+ hours that goes into practice and preparing (most professional musicians will spend between 6-8 hour a day in practice or study - that is work), as well as planning liturgies. Our organist/choir director probably works between 40-60 hours a week with everything he does - the work is done at home and at the parish. He hardly ever spends time with his family on the weekends - since he is literally at the parish all weekend with weddings almost every Friday and Saturday, mass on Saturday evening, then 5 masses on Sunday from morning to evening. It is a sacrifice. Fortunately, he does make a decent salary so that is all he does with some teaching.

I have a lot of respect for musicians so don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I know it takes a lot of time and talent and you should get paid for it, but the reality is that it’s not going to happen. Most parishes simply can’t afford it.

I grant that for some parishes it won’t happen because those certain parishes just don’t have the money. I understand that. But there are wealthy parishes - especially those parishes in the suburbs where I am, who can afford it, but don’t give it. That’s where I have the problem.

Besides all that volunteer work is going to payoff one day right? Treasures in heaven and all that jazz

Then we can say that of anyone in their profession. If music is one’s actual profession used to put food on the table, pay a mortgage, rent, put kids through college, etc. and not just a side job or hobby, they shouldn’t have to volunteer. We’ll just ask teachers, doctors, nurses, garbagemen, plumbers, etc, to sacrifice their time away from family on the weekends and during the week for no pay. Who cares that they need to support their family or to just live in general. They’ll get their treasures in heaven. Doing this isn’t so people can stack up brownie points with God in heaven. If that is the case, then those people shouldn’t be doing sacred music or any kind of music in general.

Please don’t think I’m upset with you. I’m not. Many people have similar misunderstandings about musicians, through no fault of their own. They just don’t truly and fully understand. And I’m definitely not saying the we should be making globs of money. I went into this profession knowing that I’d make a modest living and that I’d probably have to work more than most because of that. Most musicians have the same mentality. You can’t be a real artist nor a spiritual one if you do go into mainly for money.

 

[Sarabande]

Also, to add, although I’m not an organist, I do work for a parish as a cantor. Most of my weekends are pretty much shot, so it is a sacrifice working for churches - especially when you have a family and you are never there with them for the special functions, etc. (Most people are off on the weekends, so you can’t see them during the week - although you are also working during the week too.) I definitely do not expect full-time pay there because of what I do. I have to freelance as a musician elsewhere at other parishes, for secular venues, performing in chamber groups, operas, etc. and that is fine. It is what I chose for my life because I feel it is a great responsibility that God has given me. I am compelled to do this for Him in all aspects of music and must give Him my absolute best. I know that I was called to do it, no matter how much it may be a sacrifice for me. It was something I had to come to terms with when I pursued further studies in music - constant pain in prayer, asking Him why he was leading me to this path which was so hard. It brings me great spiritual satisfaction and intense joy as well as pain.

 

[Cat]

20 hours a week is a part time job. A few of them make up a living for a musician. No one would think of hiring a secretary or part time priest without pay - which isn’t to say that people who can shouldn’t volunteer their services. But people need to feed themselves and their families.

Lots of little churches have never been able to afford professional musicians. Many have had services without music, or just sung by a choir, or with a volunteer to play organ. There isn’t anything wrong with that.

But at larger churches, they have always been paid, to perform, direct, and compose. That is where all that beautiful church music comes from.

You bring up a very good point here–the church organist does not just play the organ on Sundays.

The man whose funeral I attended wrote many sacred pieces and they were published by legitimate publishing houses.

Since all organs are different, he had to edit organ works to be played on the organ that he had at his churches. (Some organs have two manuals, some have three, etc., and the stops are different on every organ.)

I didn’t know this before yesterday, but apparently the organ has to be maintained and repaired, and this man did this, and adjusted the “tone” of the organ, whatever that means. Sounds technical.

Church organists often direct choirs, or at least accompany them. Also, church organists are often put in charge of the sound system.

And many church organists maintain some kind of graded choirs for children, although this is becoming rarer and rarer in churches, both Catholic and Protestant. People don’t bring their kids to choir rehearsals anymore.

So you see, it really is a very technical, full-time type job. I’m amazed that anyone would suggest that they “volunteer.” If the janitors, secretaries, receptionists, and parochial vicars are “volunteers,” then I would say fine, don’t pay the music directors. But I doubt these other people are volunteering.

As for a time when the Sisters played the organ, yes, they didn’t get paid a salary for this work. BUT–they did receive their LIVING from the Church, didn’t they? They were provided with shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, weren’t they? So they WERE being paid, just not money. I think a lot of church organists would be happy to have a portion of the shelter, food, clothing, and medical care provided for in exchange for their service to the Church.

 

[Sarabande]

As for a time when the Sisters played the organ, yes, they didn’t get paid a salary for this work. BUT–they did receive their LIVING from the Church, didn’t they? They were provided with shelter, food, clothing, and medical care, weren’t they? So they WERE being paid, just not money. I think a lot of church organists would be happy to have a portion of the shelter, food, clothing, and medical care provided for in exchange for their service to the Church.

Good point.

A couple of my colleagues who work in Protestant churches, are actually given living quarters on the church grounds to compensate for lower pay if the church can’t afford to pay a full-living wage.

 

[jblake]

Don9of11;:

I realize it requires a full time person and in many respects it’s a full time job, but never does it offer a full time pay and never should one expect to make a living from it.

Two words: Union Scale.

jonathon

 

[Don9of11]

So you see, it really is a very technical, full-time type job. I’m amazed that anyone would suggest that they “volunteer.” If the janitors, secretaries, receptionists, and parochial vicars are “volunteers,” then I would say fine, don’t pay the music directors. But I doubt these other people are volunteering.

I guess everyone missed the part where I said, “except the pay they offer”.

Our organist of 60 some years got paid, I don’t know how much, but not very much. But he had another full time job. He played the organ, directed the choir, we did Christmas and Easter recitals and he spent many hours making sure everything came out just great. He raised a family and special needs child. He played the organ and volunteered much of his time, because he loved doing it, because he saw the greater reward.

If you are a professional musician then you need to make your living in that profession which is outside the church. I don’t care what the Protestants are doing. If you want what the protestants have then go join them.

When you come to church, if you play the organ, direct choirs, or spend hours practicing, if you cantor or sing in the choir, or all the above, yes all your professional skills are needed to do these things and when that professional talent is brought together in praise of God, it’s wonderful and very beautiful. But you’re still volunteering, dare I say there is no room for professionals in church but certainly plenty of room for professionalism, talents, expertise, etc… I guess we are all like soldiers and we all have a place in the church. Be happy with your pay, isn’t that what St.Paul, said

 

[Sarabande]

If you are a professional musician then you need to make your living in that profession which is outside the church. I don’t care what the Protestants are doing. If you want what the protestants have then go join them.

And that’s what many organists do, while we’re left with mediocrity. And while in the past, for several centuries the Church used to pay their musicians and composers livable wages, as I mentioned in a previous post. (That is also when the Church was at the height of sacred music composition and quality.) Why that changed, I do not know. I’m sure that there are many reasons.

When you come to church, if you play the organ, direct choirs, or spend hours practicing, if you cantor or sing in the choir, or all the above, yes all your professional skills are needed to do these things and when that professional talent is brought together in praise of God, it’s wonderful and very beautiful. But you’re still volunteering, dare I say there is no room for professionals in church but certainly plenty of room for professionalism, talents, expertise, etc… I guess we are all like soldiers and we all have a place in the church. Be happy with your pay, isn’t that what St.Paul, said

I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t see the difference, especially if you are in a well-off parish, paying professional janitors, secretaries, Catholic school teachers etc. a livable salary with a church musician who also works full-time. If you can’t see that, nor the actual sacrifice to family life that working in a busy parish does where you are there all weekend (smaller parishes, there really isn’t that much), then there really isn’t much more to say. It’s unfortunately a product of people’s mentality regarding musicians and artists in general (people think that of musicians who work in the secular world too - they never seem to deserve to make much money because they don’t do “real work”), that’s all.

“except the pay they offer”

I hope I’m understanding this as “Accept the pay they offer”. People who work in church jobs here, I am sure, do not complain about their pay to the people they work for. They do accept what they do to a certain extent. But I also think that the other people in the Church need to realize why organists and other musicians are no longer working in their parishes, and change their mentality. I’m glad Cat started this thread because it does start the ball rolling. It has only been something musicians and artists mostly talked about amongst themselves.

 

[Bluegoat]

I guess everyone missed the part where I said, “except the pay they offer”.

Our organist of 60 some years got paid, I don’t know how much, but not very much. But he had another full time job. He played the organ, directed the choir, we did Christmas and Easter recitals and he spent many hours making sure everything came out just great. He raised a family and special needs child. He played the organ and volunteered much of his time, because he loved doing it, because he saw the greater reward.

If you are a professional musician then you need to make your living in that profession which is outside the church. I don’t care what the Protestants are doing. If you want what the protestants have then go join them.

When you come to church, if you play the organ, direct choirs, or spend hours practicing, if you cantor or sing in the choir, or all the above, yes all your professional skills are needed to do these things and when that professional talent is brought together in praise of God, it’s wonderful and very beautiful. But you’re still volunteering, dare I say there is no room for professionals in church but certainly plenty of room for professionalism, talents, expertise, etc… I guess we are all like soldiers and we all have a place in the church. Be happy with your pay, isn’t that what St.Paul, said

Would you suggest this be extended to all people who work in the church? Why pay the priest? He should accept his calling on Sunday and then get some real job the rest of the week to pay the bills. Maybe you could give him an honorarium, just to make him feel appreciated.

 

[m134e5]

Our organist/music director plays 3 masses over the weekend and maybe a wedding if there is one. Sometimes he plays for all the masses over the weekend and sometimes he’s not there, which is usually because he goes home to visit with his relatives. But lets say he played for the daily masses morning and evening, and a choir rehearsal once a week. You’re still only talking about 20 hours at most during a week. You can’t honestly expect to make a living on 20 hours a week. I concede that this is the situation at our parish and maybe it’s not typical.

I have a lot of respect for musicians so don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I know it takes a lot of time and talent and you should get paid for it, but the reality is that it’s not going to happen. Most parishes simply can’t afford it. Besides all that volunteer work is going to payoff one day right? Treasures in heaven and all that jazz

I don’t buy that most parishes can’t afford it- they certainly aren’t thinking about laying off their school’s coach! Churches with parochial schools should have a music teacher, and playing the organ and directing the choir should be part of their job. If it’s a small school and there aren’t enough students to warrant a full-time music teacher, they can hire a part-time one, or give them additional responsibilities (like technology coordinator, bus driver for field trips, librarian, etc.).

 

[perfectpeach]

I am curious why organists need to be paid a living wage. Shouldn’t they volunteer their time on sunday mornings. Is there more to it than that?

 

[Cat]

I am curious why organists need to be paid a living wage. Shouldn’t they volunteer their time on sunday mornings. Is there more to it than that?

Because we like to eat, live somewhere, drive a vehicle, wear clothes, support our families.

Why shouldn’t they get paid? They have acquired, through many years of study, a skill that others do not have. Generally speaking, someone with a skill is paid for using that skill. E.g., if you can repair cars, no one expects you to volunteer to repair cars.

Read the rest of the thread.

Musicians are generally paid by the hour or by the gig. (Sorry to refer to playing the organ at Mass as a “gig,” but to a musician, this term is not worldly or trite. It’s just the way we describe our musical jobs.)

Of course it’s possible that musicians can volunteer, and since I do have another full time job, I often do volunteer my piano skills for church activities, including Mass. But to do this all the time is to undermine musicians who make a living with their music and have no other skills or job.

Also, keep in mind that while other volunteer jobs in the Church often lead to smiles, hugs, grateful looks, and even tears of joy from some of the recipients, a musicians “job” in the Church often leads to scorn, ridicule, and constant criticism. No matter what you play or sing, SOMEONE will think it’s irrerevent and go to the priest to complain. No matter how careful you are to dress modestly and plainly, and to avoid any “gyrations” while playing or singing, SOMEONE will think you are “performing like a pop singer” and go to the priest to complain. SOMEONE will always complain that the song is theologically inconsistent with Catholicism. SOMEONE will bemoan the fact that the Catholic Church no longer does Palestrina and Gregorian chant. SOMEONE will accuse you of having one foot in the Protestant world.

And woe betide the musician when the congregation applauds! That means, of course, that the musician is courting the applause of men. That happened to me last week. I played a prelude for Mass that I thought was reasonably subdued and suitable for meditation and prayer before Mass. When I finished, the USHERS started the applause! I was horribly embarrassed, but I know that their motives were kind. However, the first thing that came to my mind when I heard their clapping is that I would probably never be asked to play for Mass again because my pieces are not suitable for Mass. (I played Oh, the Deep Deep Love of Jesus, a very beautiful, minor-key piece, with a slow, meditative arrangement.)

In fact, I’m beginning to think that Church musicians should receive a “Criticism Bonus” for everyone who complains about them!

 

[jblake]

Would you suggest this be extended to all people who work in the church?

The workman deserves his wage (Luke 10:7, 1 Timothy 5:18)

Why pay the priest?

• At least one of the branches of Orthodox Christianity “more or less” requires priests to work outside the church.( Working outside the church is not mandated, but since the priests aren’t paid by the church, it might as well be a formal requirement.)
• Church of Christ (Mutual Edification) has no “formal” position for paid clergy. (Elders and Deacons are not paid. They are selected according to the criteria in 1 Timothy 3.)

There are other organizations/denominations/groups/whatever you want to call them, that don’t pay their clergy. (Usually descendants of either the Anabaptist Movement, or Restoration Movement. IOW, Non-Protestant denominations.)

He should accept his calling on Sunday and then get some real job the rest of the week to pay the bills.

If you think that your Priest only works on Sunday, then either your Priest has a distorted idea of what he is supposed to be doing, or you have a very distorted idea of what a Priest does.

I’ll grant that the difference between what a Priest actually does, and what they should be doing, is substantial.

In an ideal world, the Catholic Priest, every day, does the following:

• Celebrates at least one public Mass;
• Has a scheduled time, of at least one hour, for hearing confessions;
• Has a “visitation run”. Visiting every local hospital, gaol, nursing home, and similar institutions, to attend to the spiritual needs of his flock in those institutions;
• Have designated “office hours”, where people can either schedule an appointment, or “drop in”, to discuss issues/problems/whatever with them;

A good homily requires roughly three hours of preparation time;​

A “good” cleric spends at least three hours in prayer, every day. (This is from a study of Protestant clergy. Those whose congregations were expanding by conversions, and whose members felt that they (the individual members self-reported) were growing spiritually, were led by clergy who spend at least three hours per day in prayer, and an additional hour, if not more, in personal Bible study. This Bible Study is time spent in addition to preparing for the next Sermon.);​

An unfortunate fact of life is that, for strictly economic reasons, clergy have to spend time acting as business managers, not spiritual guides. It isn’t just getting the congregation to tithe, but also deciding where that money should be spent, due to competing needs. (Outreach, building repair, utility bills, other things.)

If the congregation size is 20, or less, then the leader can disciple the flock, and work full time in a different occupation;​

If the congregation size is 20 - 200, then one leader can disciple the flock, but the time commitments imposed on that discipleship probably preclude working a full time job;​

If the congregation size is greater than 200, then more than one leader probably is required to disciple the flock. Working an outside job, either full time or part time, is out of the question. There aren’t enough hours is the day to do justice to both the congregation, and the employer;​

jonathon

 

[Sarabande]

Also, keep in mind that while other volunteer jobs in the Church often lead to smiles, hugs, grateful looks, and even tears of joy from some of the recipients, a musicians “job” in the Church often leads to scorn, ridicule, and constant criticism. No matter what you play or sing, SOMEONE will think it’s irrerevent and go to the priest to complain. No matter how careful you are to dress modestly and plainly, and to avoid any “gyrations” while playing or singing, SOMEONE will think you are “performing like a pop singer” and go to the priest to complain. SOMEONE will always complain that the song is theologically inconsistent with Catholicism. SOMEONE will bemoan the fact that the Catholic Church no longer does Palestrina and Gregorian chant. SOMEONE will accuse you of having one foot in the Protestant world.

To add to that, someone will complain that if you do Palestrina and Gregorian chant or Mozart or Tallis you are being a musical elitist. Someone will complain if you play too well or sing too well, because for some reason, if you are classically trained, that automatically means you are “performing”. Someone will complain that you sound like an opera singer or played an incredible organ postlude by some French composer or Bach and that is just too much and smacks of showing off. Someone will be upset if you choose too many traditional or contemporary hymns, or do all the propers rather than hymns.

As it is shown by Cat, it happens at all ends and middles of the spectrum. It’s perhaps one of the only positions in church where it receives such heavy criticism from all sides.

And musicians either have to get a thick skin (which those who work a lot in the secular music world already have - but many who have mainly worked in church music don’t have) or have nervous breakdowns or just give up playing for churches all together - which I see a lot of with older colleagues in their 50s and up. They just get tired of mental abuse and no longer have the will-power to fight it or ignore it. I do parttime work at churches and parishes, but have no plans in the immediate future to work as a full-time musician at a church. It’s not worth going through all that, especially after my own experience.

Of course, it’s not all bad. We don’t do it for praise or ridicule. The sacred music, itself, is enough to get you through it many times.

On a side note - I have volunteered my time as a musician often, especially if I believed in the music program that a particular parish has and wanted to help in whatever way I could to help it grow. In some ways, I feel an organist deserves much more of pay than I do as a classical singer. Although I read music, work very hard, and do things with my voice that most people can’t do, an organist’s job is even 10 times harder than mine - at least to me. My friend, who is an incredible organist, but also loves classical singing thinks it’s just as hard as a classical singer, but singers don’t have to use their hands and feet and read three lines of music at the same time. Nor do singers, if they are a music director have to read the four lines of vocal music plus their two to three lines of music for the organ. I directed a children’s choir, which at most used about 2 vocal lines. That was hard enough. For a church musician who really has a full-time position at a particular parish, there really isn’t much time for another job, unless you want one of those things to suffer.

And in actuality, as most musicians know, we do a lot of freebies, especially when you are younger through your 30s.