Where are the organists coming from?

[Sarabande]

I don’t buy that most parishes can’t afford it- they certainly aren’t thinking about laying off their school’s coach! Churches with parochial schools should have a music teacher, and playing the organ and directing the choir should be part of their job. If it’s a small school and there aren’t enough students to warrant a full-time music teacher, they can hire a part-time one, or give them additional responsibilities (like technology coordinator, bus driver for field trips, librarian, etc.).

I remember when I worked as a music teacher and children’s choir director, before I got there parents insisted that they have a music teacher at the school. So they got one. I took my job seriously. For the older children, I usually gave a semester-long project of doing research on composers, musicians, instruments, etc - something many of my music teachers in school did with us. Some parents complained. They wanted a music teacher, but they only wanted the music teacher to play a few songs with them. (To add, they didn’t even want basic music theory taught.) That’s not teaching music. Luckily, the pastor and school backed me up.

I mention this because it shows how the whole mentality with music needs to change with the “lay” people - those who aren’t musicians or are not real appreciators of music - especially sacred music. It is partly the reason why we don’t have more musicians in church music.

 

[Cat]

Sarabande, I tend to agree that organists should probably be paid more than pianists and singers.

Most of the time, I am able to sight-read the music for Mass. If at the beginning of Mass, there is no instrumentalist, and Father asks for help from the congregation, I could walk up, sit down, and as long as Mass of Creation is acceptable, I can play the Mass. The piano takes no special set-up. I can just open it up and let 'er rip.

It’s different with an organist, as they have to adjust the various stops for each piece, and I think that this is best planned in advance. I know that experienced organists don’t have to think about it much, especially if the Mass is familiar to them (e.g., Mass of Creation). But I still think most organists would rather have some prep time.

A lot of people rag against Mass of Creation for various reasons, but the fact remains–it’s simple to play (at least for piano) and fairly simple to sing, and so far, anyway, it’s still liturgically correct. I know several other Masses, but the good ol’ Mass of Creation is such an easy thing, I hate to see it ousted unless there is a good SIMPLE replacement! There are a lot of instrumentalists who aren’t capable of playing anything much more complicated. We have so few organists and pianists that I hate to see something done to reduce the pool even more! I say if you hate Mass of Creation, compose a better one that is still easy enough for an Intermediate piano student to play.

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande, I tend to agree that organists should probably be paid more than pianists and singers.

Cat don’t knock yourself or other pianists. You guys/gals have a difficult instrument to play well, too. I play piano (been playing since I was 4) although I no longer play in front of people since I don’t practice enough anymore, having focused all my energies in my other instrument (voice). I know the time it takes to become proficient in piano. Yeah, pianists don’t read three lines and don’t use their feet (except to pedal and such), nor deal with stops and various different organs, but pianists still read two lines and have to be coordinated, play with the needed fluidity and technique. So, it still needs a lot of proficiency.

A lot of people rag against Mass of Creation for various reasons, but the fact remains–it’s simple to play (at least for piano) and fairly simple to sing, and so far, anyway, it’s still liturgically correct. I know several other Masses, but the good ol’ Mass of Creation is such an easy thing, I hate to see it ousted unless there is a good SIMPLE replacement! There are a lot of instrumentalists who aren’t capable of playing anything much more complicated. We have so few organists and pianists that I hate to see something done to reduce the pool even more! I say if you hate Mass of Creation, compose a better one that is still easy enough for an Intermediate piano student to play.

There are a few mass settings that are fairly simple to play/sight-read. I’ve worked with many intermediate musicians who could play these well - even I can play them and that’s saying a lot. haha! Proulx’s “Community Mass” for example, as well well as the “Danish Mass”. The “New Plainsong Mass” is also not so bad. The Schubert “German Mass” is fairly simple and straightforward and people tend to sing that well, except the English text to the Agnus Dei for that mass is a problem. If only someone can find a way to set the right text to the music so that it can be sung and not sound awkward. It’s such a lovely part of the mass. Heritage mass isn’t hard either. Anyway, just giving some options.

 

[baltobetsy]

Proulx’s “Community Mass” for example, as well well as the “Danish Mass”. The “New Plainsong Mass” is also not so bad.

At the Cathedral where I love to attend Mass, they’ve been doing the “New Plainsong” Gloria unaccompanied with everything else from the “Community Mass.” It works really well, and everyone knows it. In September, they’re switching to Proulx’s “Mass of the City,” which they’ve been teaching all throughout August. It’s pretty, but harder. By this time next year, I’ll probably love it.

But I won’t have to give up my “New Plainsong” Gloria - we just started doing it at my home parish where I cantor. And we do “Community Mass” for all the funerals.

Betsy

 

[Cat]

bump

 

[Bluegoat]

The workman deserves his wage (Luke 10:7, 1 Timothy 5:18)

• At least one of the branches of Orthodox Christianity “more or less” requires priests to work outside the church.( Working outside the church is not mandated, but since the priests aren’t paid by the church, it might as well be a formal requirement.)
• Church of Christ (Mutual Edification) has no “formal” position for paid clergy. (Elders and Deacons are not paid. They are selected according to the criteria in 1 Timothy 3.)

There are other organizations/denominations/groups/whatever you want to call them, that don’t pay their clergy. (Usually descendants of either the Anabaptist Movement, or Restoration Movement. IOW, Non-Protestant denominations.)

If you think that your Priest only works on Sunday, then either your Priest has a distorted idea of what he is supposed to be doing, or you have a very distorted idea of what a Priest does.

I’ll grant that the difference between what a Priest actually does, and what they should be doing, is substantial.

In an ideal world, the Catholic Priest, every day, does the following:

• Celebrates at least one public Mass;
• Has a scheduled time, of at least one hour, for hearing confessions;
• Has a “visitation run”. Visiting every local hospital, gaol, nursing home, and similar institutions, to attend to the spiritual needs of his flock in those institutions;
• Have designated “office hours”, where people can either schedule an appointment, or “drop in”, to discuss issues/problems/whatever with them;

A good homily requires roughly three hours of preparation time;​

A “good” cleric spends at least three hours in prayer, every day. (This is from a study of Protestant clergy. Those whose congregations were expanding by conversions, and whose members felt that they (the individual members self-reported) were growing spiritually, were led by clergy who spend at least three hours per day in prayer, and an additional hour, if not more, in personal Bible study. This Bible Study is time spent in addition to preparing for the next Sermon.);​

An unfortunate fact of life is that, for strictly economic reasons, clergy have to spend time acting as business managers, not spiritual guides. It isn’t just getting the congregation to tithe, but also deciding where that money should be spent, due to competing needs. (Outreach, building repair, utility bills, other things.)

If the congregation size is 20, or less, then the leader can disciple the flock, and work full time in a different occupation;​

If the congregation size is 20 - 200, then one leader can disciple the flock, but the time commitments imposed on that discipleship probably preclude working a full time job;​

If the congregation size is greater than 200, then more than one leader probably is required to disciple the flock. Working an outside job, either full time or part time, is out of the question. There aren’t enough hours is the day to do justice to both the congregation, and the employer;​

jonathon

I realize some groups do not pay their pastors. However, this is a discussion about the Catholic Church. And in a case where a Church is poor enough that they can’t pay a priest and he has to have another job, I don’t think there would be anything wrong with that - no one would expect them to pay an organist either.

I also realize that priests don’t just work on Sundays - it was part of my point, in fact. Often, neither does a church musical director. In many cases it is a substantial part-time job, as in 20+ hours of work a week.

 

[Sarabande]

On another thread, someone posted this church - The Cathedral of St. Paul. When I clicked on the the link, I saw that the cathedral had a music series which was showcasing an organ masterclass and a recital in September:

cathedralsaintpaul.org/cathedral-music-series-wilma-jensen-masterclass-and-concert

I’ve never heard Wilma Jensen play, but I do know and worked with one of her former students who plays beautifully and has a position at a prominent Episcopal church as the organist and choirmaster. Having a music series like this at a diocese cathedral I think is very important. The masterclass, especially, is even more important. Any musician who has been through masterclasses know what they are like and if you have a great “master” critiquing and helping you be a better musician and artist, those masterclasses are invaluable. Just being part of the audience or as an auditor can truly teach you and even inspire someone to play a certain instrument or become a classical singer, etc.

If more churches which have real organs did things like this - even with just a concert series on a Sunday afternoon after masses, I think it could be a good experience. If the parish is connected with a school that has a music program, it could be something required of students to see, which can grow to having students also partake in a concert series of organ and whatnot. At the parish where I am currently working, the music director and I are planning a sacred music concert of vocal and organ repertoire. We’re doing it gratis with just a free-will offering for the parish itself. (A lot of church musicians I know who do these concerts where they work do it for free as well.)

 

[Cat]

On another thread, someone posted this church - The Cathedral of St. Paul. When I clicked on the the link, I saw that the cathedral had a music series which was showcasing an organ masterclass and a recital in September:

cathedralsaintpaul.org/cathedral-music-series-wilma-jensen-masterclass-and-concert

I’ve never heard Wilma Jensen play, but I do know and worked with one of her former students who plays beautifully and has a position at a prominent Episcopal church as the organist and choirmaster. Having a music series like this at a diocese cathedral I think is very important. The masterclass, especially, is even more important. Any musician who has been through masterclasses know what they are like and if you have a great “master” critiquing and helping you be a better musician and artist, those masterclasses are invaluable. Just being part of the audience or as an auditor can truly teach you and even inspire someone to play a certain instrument or become a classical singer, etc.

If more churches which have real organs did things like this - even with just a concert series on a Sunday afternoon after masses, I think it could be a good experience. If the parish is connected with a school that has a music program, it could be something required of students to see, which can grow to having students also partake in a concert series of organ and whatnot. At the parish where I am currently working, the music director and I are planning a sacred music concert of vocal and organ repertoire. We’re doing it gratis with just a free-will offering for the parish itself. (A lot of church musicians I know who do these concerts where they work do it for free as well.)

Unfortunately, tragically, pathetically, ridiculously, the AGO has blacklisted our church and our organ because the parish (actually the diocese) fired an organist who “came out” as openly-homosexual. (He had given the impression originally that he was living chastely with his partner.)

Frankly, folks, I would rather have a pious guitarist who strums secular-sounding stuff, or a lounge lizard of a pianist who willingly submits to the Church, rather than an organist who shakes his/her fist at the Catholic Church and the teaching (concerning homosexuality) of nearly 2000 years. What is more important–traditional pipe organ music during Mass, or righteousness? Those AGO organists will have to answer someday to the Lord for their rebellious foolishness.

In the meantime, I will gladly listen to our beautiful Catholic teenagers play electric guitars, drums, and keyboards at the Life Teen Mass. I know several of them and their families, and they are amazing Catholic Christians who are truly the light of the world in their very dark young world.

To me, it is the PERSON who is more importan than the instrument they play. There are people who play piano in our parish who frankly stink at piano, but they are saints in their lives, and so I love listening to them play. Their focus is not on what they CAN’T do (play the pipe organ), but on what they CAN do for the Church and for Jesus Christ. I want to be like that.

 

[mattwcu]

As an organist I want to chime in.

I have been blessed to be able to play at two parishes. One I fill in at (my own, TLM parish) and another I have as a regular Saturday evening job.

There are very few of us, and I have sacrificed my weekends and vacations to be a Church organist/choir member. I went away this past weekend for the first time in months. Finding substitutes is extremely difficult, and this time they actually pulled someone from the pews to fill in for me.

I rarely, except a few weeks in the summer, get to attend mass like everyone else. This is spiritually problematic for me. I feel like I have not attended Sunday Mass most weeks even though I may have played or sang at 3 of them. Even though I am participating (externally), participating (internally) is next to impossible. If there is a poster-boy for the lesser value of external participation, I am it! (I love attending Silent Low Mass.)

But, it is a sacrifice I am willing to make because I know I am serving God. I use my playing/singing to serve God by helping the people pray better. Many, especially at the Novus Ordo I play at, might only pray when they are sitting in the pews. I take that into account.

Just wanted to add a little perspective.

 

[Sarabande]

---

There are very few of us, and I have sacrificed my weekends and vacations to be a Church organist/choir member. I went away this past weekend for the first time in months. Finding substitutes is extremely difficult, and this time they actually pulled someone from the pews to fill in for me.

I rarely, except a few weeks in the summer, get to attend mass like everyone else. This is spiritually problematic for me. I feel like I have not attended Sunday Mass most weeks even though I may have played or sang at 3 of them. Even though I am participating (externally), participating (internally) is next to impossible. If there is a poster-boy for the lesser value of external participation, I am it! (I love attending Silent Low Mass.)​

I totally understand where you are coming from. As another person who has spent entire weekends cantoring masses, directing children’s choirs, cantoring weddings or singing in choirs week in and week out, I can totally relate. (I no longer direct children’s choirs or sing in a choir, but I do have a cantor position singing weekly and do weddings almost every Saturday.) When I can, I will try to attend a mass where I am not “working” as a musician, because I do experience the same as you do. Internal “participation” can be difficult to achieve even though singing for me is my ultimate form of prayer to God.

My friend who is the organist at our parish, which is also the cathedral for the diocese, is in a similar position where he spends his entire weekend at the cathedral for weekly weddings or for the 5-6 masses they do there a weekend. I don’t think he has taken a real vacation in almost 20/30 years, even in the summer because they are always planning special masses and events usually during the time when he can possibly take a little vacation. That then gets thrown down the drain because he has to spend time planning, writing out instrumental parts for the musicians, calling in the choir (which also is supposed to have off in the summer) to come in for rehearsals and prepare them, etc.

I know talking to my organists friends, the difficulty of finding qualified substitutes in our area is that most able organists already have regular church positions. And most services/masses are at similar times. The same is true in finding qualified substitute professional cantors. I’ve had colleagues call me up desperate for a cantor. (These are parishes which pay for trained singers/cantors.) Before I had my new position, I substituted as a cantor often - very often at the place where I am currently working as their Sunday cantor. I still substitute on Sundays if the parish is close by to my work and I can either just walk or drive there within a matter of minutes and it doesn’t conflict with mass times at my church.

 

[Sarabande]

Unfortunately, tragically, pathetically, ridiculously, the AGO has blacklisted our church and our organ because the parish (actually the diocese) fired an organist who “came out” as openly-homosexual. (He had given the impression originally that he was living chastely with his partner.)

I’m sorry that your church had to go through this. I remember you mentioning this in other threads. I’m not sure what the Northern IL AGO Chapter is like or if most of the organists in your area are part of the AGO there, but I do know that my younger organist friends and colleagues (20s/30s) don’t even bother joining the AGO chapters in our area. They actually don’t have much respect for the organisation. Even my older friend (in his 50s) isn’t even part of it and he’s one of the best in the city.

Frankly, folks, I would rather have a pious guitarist who strums secular-sounding stuff, or a lounge lizard of a pianist who willingly submits to the Church, rather than an organist who shakes his/her fist at the Catholic Church and the teaching (concerning homosexuality) of nearly 2000 years. What is more important–traditional pipe organ music during Mass, or righteousness? Those AGO organists will have to answer someday to the Lord for their rebellious foolishness.

In the meantime, I will gladly listen to our beautiful Catholic teenagers play electric guitars, drums, and keyboards at the Life Teen Mass. I know several of them and their families, and they are amazing Catholic Christians who are truly the light of the world in their very dark young world.

To me, it is the PERSON who is more importan than the instrument they play. There are people who play piano in our parish who frankly stink at piano, but they are saints in their lives, and so I love listening to them play. Their focus is not on what they CAN’T do (play the pipe organ), but on what they CAN do for the Church and for Jesus Christ. I want to be like that.

I understand what you are saying here, but you are making it sound as if every single organist, including every single AGO organist, are a bunch of immoral creatures. I’m hoping that is not what you meant. You can find an equal amount of other instrumentalists who are like some of the immoral organists. It may not be the same kinds of faults, but I’ve worked with a few who were just nasty people in general or were sleeping around in heterosexual relationships, etc. It’s just that most people don’t know about it or places will turn a blind eye because those are the only musicians they can get. Let’s not just say organists are like that.

Also, this doesn’t really have anything to do with getting organists (and in your church’s case, organists who are not part of the AGO) to come do recitals, masterclasses, etc. at a parish. It doesn’t answer to getting children interested in organ if you have good organists doing things like what I wrote in the previous post.

Believe me, I totally understand why you tend to be kind of negative and dark about the situation because, how you describe your area, it does seem to be continual downing of things. I know that I am younger and perhaps just naturally more optimistic because of my age (not having been beaten down enough I guess haha!), but I remember being very serious and dark as a youngster and was constantly naysaying almost in the same way that you naysay (and I don’t mean this in an insultory or derogatory way).

The older, wiser people who were in my life would be optimistic and try to help me, but I always looked at what was happening was the extinction of this or that, or that I just wasted good enough and felt it was futile to try things out, etc. As I grew up and matured, I saw what they were talking about. It’s natural to be negative about things when it seems that things look so dark and grim. BUT, the only way to not become part of a negative change is to change your own outlook on the situation. Become positive and optimistic. Work at the change.

As my mother always said (and I realize I’ve said this before to you in other threads), “Never say never.” and “In order to change the system is to be in the system.” I’m doing my part as a good musician and someone who is willing to help out parishes trying to get back to doing chant and other music which has been a part of the Church for hundreds, if not thousands of years, by planning sacred music concerts to re-introduce people to our sacred music heritage, etc. You are fortunate because as a musician, you can do your part as well, by continuing to put out your quality musicianship, maybe even trying to start a program for children at your church/parish or even try to get a music series together with you playing and other colleagues, including organist colleagues, who would be willing to do these concerts gratis. Most musicians will do that, especially if they believe in the “cause”.

 

[mattwcu]

I’m not currently a member of the AGO either. I think when I was in high school I signed up but that was years ago. I doubt I’m still on the membership rolls.

I’ve really found it hasn’t been necessary to belong…

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not currently a member of the AGO either. I think when I was in high school I signed up but that was years ago. I doubt I’m still on the membership rolls.

I’ve really found it hasn’t been necessary to belong…

Yes, I would agree, just based on what has been told to me by the organists I know and who are competent and able organists.

Actually, the only “organist” I am acquainted with who always touts about belonging to the AGO is one of the worst musicians I know. He only had one organ lesson and really no other real music lessons. It was always a cross to bear when I had to work with him. He was so bad that people from the congregation (these were normal non-musicians) would come up to me after mass to complain about his playing. I couldn’t do anything about, though. Yet, he was one of the most pompous, arrogant and self-delusional people you’d ever meet - someone you definitely did not want working in the Church. No humility whatsoever. He was eventually fired from his job mainly because of his attitude and poor musicianship, but he has somehow found a way to bs himself into another position. It’s only a matter of time that he’ll be fired from there. (Has a difficult time holding down jobs.)

I think, in a way, it’s poor musicianship or lack of musicianship like this man has which has given the AGO a bad name for the younger organists out there. Why would they want to be part of an organisation that accepts just anyone out there who claims to be an organist without any real test of ability? That’s NOT to say, though, that there aren’t good musicians in the AGO. There definitely are, as I know from older organist colleagues who are good musicians and part of the AGO, so I’m not putting down all the members in general. But I do know that has been a critique of it.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

We’re fortunate to have a pretty good organist at the parish I regularly go to. But some other parishes and churches I’ve been to… one in particular, has a good organ, but a horrid organist who kind of “tap-dances” on the pedals, so the hymns wind up sounding like someone who thinks they’re Philip Glass arranged them (and while that works in a piece by Philip Glass, it doesn’t work in something that actually has a clear melody). I don’t know if he’s just trying to find the right pedal note or if his feet are fidgety on the pedals, but I have to give myself direct orders not to throw missalettes up at the choir loft whenever I go to Mass at this particular parish.

 

[Bluegoat]

Unfortunately, tragically, pathetically, ridiculously, the AGO has blacklisted our church and our organ because the parish (actually the diocese) fired an organist who “came out” as openly-homosexual. (He had given the impression originally that he was living chastely with his partner.)

Frankly, folks, I would rather have a pious guitarist who strums secular-sounding stuff, or a lounge lizard of a pianist who willingly submits to the Church, rather than an organist who shakes his/her fist at the Catholic Church and the teaching (concerning homosexuality) of nearly 2000 years. What is more important–traditional pipe organ music during Mass, or righteousness? Those AGO organists will have to answer someday to the Lord for their rebellious foolishness.

In the meantime, I will gladly listen to our beautiful Catholic teenagers play electric guitars, drums, and keyboards at the Life Teen Mass. I know several of them and their families, and they are amazing Catholic Christians who are truly the light of the world in their very dark young world.

To me, it is the PERSON who is more importan than the instrument they play. There are people who play piano in our parish who frankly stink at piano, but they are saints in their lives, and so I love listening to them play. Their focus is not on what they CAN’T do (play the pipe organ), but on what they CAN do for the Church and for Jesus Christ. I want to be like that.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand what you are saying here. But I am not sure - should we, by that token, stop playing music composed by people who were willfully living in sinful states?( Regular drunkenness, gambling, wenching, or whatever? Or perhaps the insufferably prideful?) Should we perhaps get rid of all the art that they have created? THere would be a lot lost to the Glory of God if we were to do that.

If I had to trade in the organist for some reason, I would not replace him with teenagers on guitars, for a million dollar donation to the church. I’d have silence.

 

[StillWondering]

I agree. I went to HS with a young man who was an incredible musician. He played at our Catholic church while he was in school, but once he got his PhD in accompaniment he went to a Protestant church because he could not have afforded to feed his family on what the Catholic churches were offering.

It’s the same old story-you get what you pay for. If you’re not willing to pay a living wage for an accomplished musician, you often do not get them. Sure, there are cases where a person can do it, but those are normally are people with spouses who make excellent salaries or retired people who don’t need as much money.

I remember Jesus says, the labor deserves his wage.

I would look towards the laity quite a bit on this situation. Catholics have a tendency to take things for granted in the Church. It costs a great deal to keep a Church going. The one I attend has a budget of $30k/week. That’s quite a lot in terms of a average paycheck by an average individual American. But we are a community. If the community can provide more for the Church, the Church can provide more for their musicians. Not all churches in the Church do not pay their musicians. There are stipends for some and others have a salary position from the rectory. However, these all cost quite a bit on top of the bare minimum to run a church.

And more focused on the topic at hand, there is a neglect form the laity. Many of us Catholics do not know how much we appreciate our organists till they pass away. Well, some take lessons but a great deal more can learn before the organist pass away. Also there are other ways to learn besides from the person that is busy keeping music going at church.

I guess I’m saying yeah there are financial reasons, but I think this is just the product. The core is laity involvement, donation, and appreciation is lacking.

 

[Besetta]

There are not many jobs for organists available. Unless you live in a major city, you cannot make a full time living from playing organ. It has to be a weekend job for extra money. Not many people want to give up all their weekends and holidays in addition to working a full-time job because they have to support themselves.

If you check out the American Guild of Organist website, there are only a handful of organist jobs in each part of the country at any given time. Odds are there are no listings in your state, and if there are, then they are far away.

Many churches employ piano players to play their organ. The faux organists do not use the pedals. This is quite common.

Even though I am very skilled and educated about playing the organ, and am musically talented, I do not feel especially valued by the church. I have been treated poorly on numerous occasions, and have never been offered a raise. Despite my huge time commitment, efforts, work, talents, etc., no one would try to keep me if I handed in my resignation.