Where did Martin Luther and John Calvin disagree?

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Mickey said:
God gave us free will.
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God gave Adam and Eve free will. What does Scripture say about the nature of man after the Fall?

Bear in mind I am not talking about free will in the sense that we make choices every day. What to eat, what to wear, where to drive. The context of this is moral and spiritual will.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Where does Scripture teach the humanistic notion of free will?

If God is not sovereign over His creation, then the only being in the universe without a free will would be God. Do you believe God alone being the author of all things is a bad thing?
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I am no apologist and consider myself a primary school Christian as I was away from the Chuch for 27 years. However, I shall attempt to answer your question about free will.

I know that God said that we can choose good or evil but that he recommends good.

If there were such a thing as predestination then we would have no control over salvation whatsoever. God would have predestined some of us to be saved and others to be damned. that is not the action of a merciful God.

We choose to respond to God. I know of people who do not deny the existance of God and they leave it at that (I did for many years - I thought religion was for weaklings) I always had strong feelings about social justice and the poor and one day the Holy Spirit put it in my heart to come back to the Church and I responded. (you are probably going to say that it was out of my control!!)

Perhaps someone out there with more knowledge of scripture can help me out.

I rely on Faith and Reason and my instincts. Predestination is certainly not something that I can embrace. (Sorry Sola)

No way

:rolleyes: :tsktsk: :bigyikes:
 
Cinette said:
We choose to respond to God.
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In making us in His image, after His likeness, God placed us before Him, not as an action of His, entirely subject to Him, but as fact even for Him - as free beings. And by virtue of this, relations between man and God are based on the principle of freedom. When we take advantage of this freedom and commit sin, we thrust God aside. This liberty to turn away from God is the negative, tragic aspect of free will, but it is a sine qua non if we are to take hold of the life which is truly divine, life which is not predetermined.
**Archimandrite Sophrony (His Life is Mine, Chapter 8; SVS Press pgs. 66-67) **
 
Mickey said:
In making us in His image, after His likeness, God placed us before Him, not as an action of His, entirely subject to Him, but as fact even for Him - as free beings. And by virtue of this, relations between man and God are based on the principle of freedom. When we take advantage of this freedom and commit sin, we thrust God aside. This liberty to turn away from God is the negative, tragic aspect of free will, but it is a sine qua non if we are to take hold of the life which is truly divine, life which is not predetermined.
**Archimandrite Sophrony (His Life is Mine, Chapter 8; SVS Press pgs. 66-67) **
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Thank you. Your response is not only true but it is common sense. We only need to look at God for what he is, what He taught us, how He loves us, His Holy sacrifice, His mercy, and many many things and can only conclude that he has provided us with everything for our salvation and by giving us free will he values our decision to respond all the more.

The one positive about these strange, wicked times we live in is that everybody in the pews is there because they choose to. Nobody forces them to go to Church anymore. Certainly not the adults. They are there because they CHOOSE.

Yay to free will!!
:whistle: 👋
 
I have heard that Luther liked his eggs sunny side up, while Calvin preferred them over-easy 😉

(Btw… Someone expressed a problem regarding creeds and confessions. FYI: Protestants do not place these above scripture.)

Peace to you all,
John
 
Mickey said:
Did he believe it was the Real Presence?
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Yes. Along with the bread and wine we receive the Body and Blood of Christ. We are much much closer to the Orthodox. We define it as a mystery that cannot be, and does not need to be, explained with Greek philsophical categories.
 
Mickey said:
Amen.
Are you saying we do not have free will to make choices of a moral or spiritual nature?
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God does not stop us from making choices of a moral or spiritual nature. But until we are raised from spiritual death by the preaching of the Word or Baptism we will always choose rebellion. Our nature, in Adam, is fallen, corrupted, and in slavery to sin. We are bound by our own nature, not by God. Our nature must be freed from slavery to sin from the outside; by the word of Christ.

“If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”
 
Cinette said:
I am no apologist and consider myself a primary school Christian as I was away from the Chuch for 27 years. However, I shall attempt to answer your question about free will.

Consider it a plus that you are not an apologist.
I know that God said that we can choose good or evil but that he recommends good.
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TriuneUnity said:
God does not stop us from making choices of a moral or spiritual nature. But until we are raised from spiritual death by the preaching of the Word or Baptism we will always choose rebellion.
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Baptism does not take away our free will or freedom of choice, but gives us the freedom no longer to be tyrannized by the devil unless we choose to be. After baptism it is in our power either to persist willingly in the practice of the commandments of Christ, into Whom we were baptized, and to advance in the path of His ordinances, or to deviate from this straight way and to fall again into the hands of our enemy, the devil.
St Symeon the New Theologian
 
Mickey said:
Hooray! I wonder if Luther knew that Holy Orthodoxy would have welcomed him? 😃
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Luther would have had different disagreements with Orthodoxy. Mainly revolving around justification, the infallibility of ecumenical councils, and their theology of sin. Alas, the opportunity never presented itself for him to dialogue with the East.

Although he did defend them as true Christians profusely against the claims of Rome that salvation outside the Catholic Church meant the East was…well, you know…outside the Church.
 
Mickey said:
Baptism does not take away our free will or freedom of choice, but gives us the freedom no longer to be tyrannized by the devil unless we choose to be. After baptism it is in our power either to persist willingly in the practice of the commandments of Christ, into Whom we were baptized, and to advance in the path of His ordinances, or to deviate from this straight way and to fall again into the hands of our enemy, the devil.
St Symeon the New Theologian
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👍 Amen…agree with everything said here by that Saint.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Rom 8:29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
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The Scriptures and man’s experience both bear witness that all things work together for good to those who love God. Setbacks and difficulties there will be, but God turns them into “light afflictions” (2Cor 4:17, 18; 12:9, 10). God has foreknowledge of all things.

Predestined must not be understood as overpowering man’s free response, for man’s free will is a gift from God. Nor does the term apply to individuals. Rather this term (which can also be translated “preordained”) means that God has a specific calling for His people from before the beginning of the world. “God does not will evil to be done, nor does he force virtue” (John Dm). Based on His foreknowledge, God assures, or predestines, that those who will choose to love Him will be conformed to the image of His Son, that is, glorified.
OSB
 
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