Where did the anti-family vibe come from?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mschrank
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The increase in porn is because of the rise of the internet. That has nothing to do with birth control. The increase in violence against women is because of the fact that the world has become much smaller in the last few decades. It used to take months for word to get about what happened in regimes like North Korea and Cambodia. Now we find out in minutes. That has nothing to do with birth control. The increase in divorce is because it has become more and more socially acceptable to split up when things aren’t going well. Sad, but that also has nothing to do with birth control.
So there was no increase in pornography between the advent of the easy and approved access to birth control and the internet? We saw no trend that has simply been exacerbated by the internet? O.K. if you say so.

And could you explain how the world getting smaller by the easy access to news–explains and increase in violence against women? Either there is more violence against women, less violence or it has remained the same–our hearing about it does not change the level of violence. Now how we define violence against women could skew statistics and the effort should be made to account for that. Those that study these things don’t rely on the nightly news for their information.
 
So there was no increase in pornography between the advent of the easy and approved access to birth control and the internet? We saw no trend that has simply been exacerbated by the internet? O.K. if you say so.
Somehow I doubt the birth control and porn issues are correlated. Both are damaging to marriage but I don’t see the correlation man. If you mean to say that the culture became more sexualized due to the rise of the Pill then perhaps I can see some areas of agreement. But it’s really the expansion of various types of media that’s led to the explosion of pornography.
And could you explain how the world getting smaller by the easy access to news–explains and increase in violence against women? Either there is more violence against women, less violence or it has remained the same–our hearing about it does not change the level of violence. Now how we define violence against women could skew statistics and the effort should be made to account for that. Those that study these things don’t rely on the nightly news for their information.
I don’t know that there has been a rise in violence against women. I’d say it’s likely declined because all violent crime has declined at least in most Western countries. NightHawk has a point that we simply know more about the atrocities that have always been going on because of the widespread reach of global media these days.

Most of what NightHawk has to say is decidedly anti-Catholic and fairly delusional but I’m not going to deny a salient point when I see one just because of who posted it.
 
So there was no increase in pornography between the advent of the easy and approved access to birth control and the internet? We saw no trend that has simply been exacerbated by the internet? O.K. if you say so.

And could you explain how the world getting smaller by the easy access to news–explains and increase in violence against women? Either there is more violence against women, less violence or it has remained the same–our hearing about it does not change the level of violence. Now how we define violence against women could skew statistics and the effort should be made to account for that. Those that study these things don’t rely on the nightly news for their information.
Correct, we saw no trend there. There is no connection between the increased access of birth control and the increase of pornography. That is solely to do with more money-making opportunities on the internet, and an easier access to it.

As for the access to news, now that violence gets reported. Decades ago, when birth control didn’t exist, we weren’t hearing what went on in the Soviet Union, China or North Korea. When anything happened on another continent, it took a while before we knew. Now if something happens in the United Kingdom, I can find out about it in five minutes in the United States. As access to information increases, so does the discovery of less-than-pleasant information.

I don’t see any way you can connect birth control to any of this.
 
Most of what NightHawk has to say is decidedly anti-Catholic and fairly delusional but I’m not going to deny a salient point when I see one just because of who posted it.
I’m not at all anti-Catholic. I’m a practicing Catholic.
 
Alright, Bucket. You got me. I’m just saying I’d like to see some concrete data here.
As far as porn’s increase, yes, there is increased access to better media. Buu-ut, it’s more socially acceptable than it was 60 years ago. I didn’t live 60 years ago, but Midnight
Cowboy is no x-rated movie, thankyouverymuch (so I hear, haha). The so-called “feminist” movement is in support of porn, and there are really no laws to hinder it’s availability.

Today it’s cigarettes. I don’t smoke, just a disclaimer. 🙂

So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I just have problems holding an argument with someone who bases his entire philosophy off some accounts of selfish people who were ending their marriages because the kids were just too much work (written in the Philly paper that Night Hawk linked somewhere else).

And, I just thought a picture of my baby’s cuteness would be the end of this discussion. I mean, who can argue on that one?
 
I feel too much blame is placed on feminism, contraception, etc. That’s all a symptom of the overall problem. When I think of the average anti-family vibe in this day, I hear people say that they need to delay having kids or limit the number of kids because of reasons that just didn’t exist before the rise of this culture we have built. Today, we want to finish college. Go to grad school perhaps. Celebrate the 15-20 years of education with focusing on establishing our careers and dating and traveling and going to concerts and seeng art museums. We are incredibly more free these days. We have a lot more options. The individual in the U.S. has so much mobility and resources to do stuff people 150 years ago couldn’t dream of. You’re average goof out of college with a decent enough low-paying job can go backpacking in Europe for 2 weeks, own his own place and lease a new car.

All this stuff points to the fact that in the West we value individual freedom and the fulfillment of our own will to an incredible extent. Even those of us who want kids “don’t want too many kids” because we want to be able to afford a decent house, afford to send our kids to college, have enough money to retire on and live comfortably and perhaps travel again. It sounds insane to our ears to not want to ensure we have those things.

So the anti-family vibe I hear has nothing to do with being against family as much as it is against not being able to fulfill the individual’s will. It’s a rejection of anything that’s in the way of making one’s dreams come true in terms of career, diversions, travel, etc.

And it’s taking me a while to realize this is has been a terribly empty pursuit. (For me personally—I should add—because this is the internet and we have to qualify things like that.)
 
Wow. Now THAT is a salient point, Jeremiah.

It’s hard to stay educated, to maintain a sense of wisdom with the onslaught of technological development that has given us so much more freedom.

I believe in freedom, but it’s difficult to stay informed and make the right choice within all these new freedoms. There are so many options, so many different avenues to gather information. It’s impossible to truly come to a conclusion. AND these new freedoms with a lack of established wisdom revolving around them make people have less validation to listen to their gut.

Which makes it all the more important for me to cling to the wisdom of Mother Church.
 
I feel too much blame is placed on feminism, contraception, etc. That’s all a symptom of the overall problem. When I think of the average anti-family vibe in this day, I hear people say that they need to delay having kids or limit the number of kids because of reasons that just didn’t exist before the rise of this culture we have built. Today, we want to finish college. Go to grad school perhaps. Celebrate the 15-20 years of education with focusing on establishing our careers and dating and traveling and going to concerts and seeng art museums. We are incredibly more free these days. We have a lot more options. The individual in the U.S. has so much mobility and resources to do stuff people 150 years ago couldn’t dream of. You’re average goof out of college with a decent enough low-paying job can go backpacking in Europe for 2 weeks, own his own place and lease a new car.

All this stuff points to the fact that in the West we value individual freedom and the fulfillment of our own will to an incredible extent. Even those of us who want kids “don’t want too many kids” because we want to be able to afford a decent house, afford to send our kids to college, have enough money to retire on and live comfortably and perhaps travel again. It sounds insane to our ears to not want to ensure we have those things.

So the anti-family vibe I hear has nothing to do with being against family as much as it is against not being able to fulfill the individual’s will. It’s a rejection of anything that’s in the way of making one’s dreams come true in terms of career, diversions, travel, etc.

And it’s taking me a while to realize this is has been a terribly empty pursuit. (For me personally—I should add—because this is the internet and we have to qualify things like that.)
And that is why I am glad to live in this day and age. Driving from Iowa to Tampa and back earlier this year was one of the best experiences of my life. I don’t ever want to – and I’m not ever going to – stop traveling.
 
And that is why I am glad to live in this day and age. Driving from Iowa to Tampa and back earlier this year was one of the best experiences of my life. I don’t ever want to – and I’m not ever going to – stop traveling.
Oh you’re from Iowa - that explains everything. 😛
 
I feel too much blame is placed on feminism, contraception, etc. That’s all a symptom of the overall problem. When I think of the average anti-family vibe in this day, I hear people say that they need to delay having kids or limit the number of kids because of reasons that just didn’t exist before the rise of this culture we have built. Today, we want to finish college. Go to grad school perhaps. Celebrate the 15-20 years of education with focusing on establishing our careers and dating and traveling and going to concerts and seeng art museums. We are incredibly more free these days. We have a lot more options. The individual in the U.S. has so much mobility and resources to do stuff people 150 years ago couldn’t dream of. You’re average goof out of college with a decent enough low-paying job can go backpacking in Europe for 2 weeks, own his own place and lease a new car.

All this stuff points to the fact that in the West we value individual freedom and the fulfillment of our own will to an incredible extent. Even those of us who want kids “don’t want too many kids” because we want to be able to afford a decent house, afford to send our kids to college, have enough money to retire on and live comfortably and perhaps travel again. It sounds insane to our ears to not want to ensure we have those things.

So the anti-family vibe I hear has nothing to do with being against family as much as it is against not being able to fulfill the individual’s will. It’s a rejection of anything that’s in the way of making one’s dreams come true in terms of career, diversions, travel, etc.

And it’s taking me a while to realize this is has been a terribly empty pursuit. (For me personally—I should add—because this is the internet and we have to qualify things like that.)
The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we spend more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less.

We have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, but less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge, but less judgment; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, but less wellness.

We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get angry too quickly, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too seldom, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom.

We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We’ve learned how to make a living, but not a life; we’ve added years to life, not life to years.

We’ve been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. We’ve conquered outer space, but not inner space; we’ve done larger things, but not better things.

We’ve cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; we’ve split the atom, but not our prejudice.

We write more, but learn less; we plan more, but accomplish less. We’ve learned to rush, but not to wait; we have higher incomes, but lower morals; we have more food, but less appeasement; we build more computers to hold more information to produce more copies than ever, but have less communication; we’ve become long on quantity, but short on quality.

These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion; tall men, and short character; steep profits, and shallow relationships. These are the times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure, but less fun; more kinds of food, but less nutrition.

These are days of two incomes, but more divorce; of fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throw away morality, one-night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer to quiet to kill.

It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing in the stockroom.

All since the 1960’s and is it funny that that is when we saw the rise of feminism and embracing of contraceptives. Some make the mistake of calling it freedom.
 
All since the 1960’s and is it funny that that is when we saw the rise of feminism and embracing of contraceptives. Some make the mistake of calling it freedom.
It’s no mistake. It’s real freedom. I would never want to go back to 50 years ago. We have made so much progress since then, and it is a good thing.
 
Wow. Now THAT is a salient point, Jeremiah.

It’s hard to stay educated, to maintain a sense of wisdom with the onslaught of technological development that has given us so much more freedom.

I believe in freedom, but it’s difficult to stay informed and make the right choice within all these new freedoms. There are so many options, so many different avenues to gather information. It’s impossible to truly come to a conclusion. AND these new freedoms with a lack of established wisdom revolving around them make people have less validation to listen to their gut.

Which makes it all the more important for me to cling to the wisdom of Mother Church.
This is spot on. We should absolutely have a government and society that gives people the right to be selfish, because that also protects their rights to be selfless and serve their God. Theocracies corrupt both faith and government, communism not only invites mass murder and repression of religion but the destruction of the individual. Republics with enumerated and unenumerated rights such as we have in America are the best compromise man cannot truly be trusted to govern himself. That’s why originally Israel was not to have a king! The judges had temporal authority but God was the King. This sort of government is obviously impossible today.

But with all this freedom a great many of us have decided to focus on ourselves and not on one another. As Blessed JP2 said, “Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought.” Truly Christ was correct when he said it is easier for a camel to pass through the Eye of the Needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. For we as a wealthy society focus so much on the temporal we ignore the eternal. So freedom for us is not to pursue God’s will for us but to do whatever the heck we want to do.

And I want to thank NightHawk for so perfectly living out that message. We all stumble my friend. We all fail to live up to our creeds. I have failed terribly in my life. It is a source of great sorrow that I have sinned at all, much less committed the grave errors that I have. But I did not persist in believing that I was right and the Church is wrong.

For you to proclaim that you will sterilize yourself and that will make you and your future spouse immensely happy just so perfectly exemplifies this false freedom. It also underscores my point that you are not a practicing Catholic. I don’t mean that as an insult, but simply a point of fact. You know what the Church teaches on this matter but you reject it in the name of “freedom.”

Cross-country trips are great. I doubt the Lord would find fault in you for that. But rejecting the very foundation of marriage? Yeah, I’m guessing He will probably not be pleased. It is my fervent hope you embrace true freedom and that is the freedom to choose His will and reject your own.

So either troll onward sir or stop and recognize that following your own will and not God’s will only result in sadness. Take it from a guy who has experienced the sadness of refusing to turn his life over to God’s control and trying to micromanage it himself.
 
It’s no mistake. It’s real freedom. I would never want to go back to 50 years ago. We have made so much progress since then, and it is a good thing.
Voting rights and equal treatment under the law is real freedom. Having the right to be selfish is a necessary evil because of the imperfection that comes along with human government. But acting on those selfish tendencies is not true freedom. It is willingly embracing the shackles of sin and enslaving yourself to well… yourself. You nor I nor anyone else will be happy if our dreams are not in concert with the ones God has for us.

I would never advocate for making non-abortifacient contraceptives illegal. But I will forever insist that the use of those contraceptives is not freeing but instead a destruction of true liberty and privilege as imagined by God when He formed the universe and allowed for humanity to share in the creation of new eternal souls.
 
This is spot on. We should absolutely have a government and society that gives people the right to be selfish, because that also protects their rights to be selfless and serve their God. Theocracies corrupt both faith and government, communism not only invites mass murder and repression of religion but the destruction of the individual. Republics with enumerated and unenumerated rights such as we have in America are the best compromise man cannot truly be trusted to govern himself. That’s why originally Israel was not to have a king! The judges had temporal authority but God was the King. This sort of government is obviously impossible today.

But with all this freedom a great many of us have decided to focus on ourselves and not on one another. As Blessed JP2 said, “Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought.” Truly Christ was correct when he said it is easier for a camel to pass through the Eye of the Needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. For we as a wealthy society focus so much on the temporal we ignore the eternal. So freedom for us is not to pursue God’s will for us but to do whatever the heck we want to do.

And I want to thank NightHawk for so perfectly living out that message. We all stumble my friend. We all fail to live up to our creeds. I have failed terribly in my life. It is a source of great sorrow that I have sinned at all, much less committed the grave errors that I have. But I did not persist in believing that I was right and the Church is wrong.

For you to proclaim that you will sterilize yourself and that will make you and your future spouse immensely happy just so perfectly exemplifies this false freedom. It also underscores my point that you are not a practicing Catholic. I don’t mean that as an insult, but simply a point of fact. You know what the Church teaches on this matter but you reject it in the name of “freedom.”

Cross-country trips are great. I doubt the Lord would find fault in you for that. But rejecting the very foundation of marriage? Yeah, I’m guessing He will probably not be pleased. It is my fervent hope you embrace true freedom and that is the freedom to choose His will and reject your own.

So either troll onward sir or stop and recognize that following your own will and not God’s will only result in sadness. Take it from a guy who has experienced the sadness of refusing to turn his life over to God’s control and trying to micromanage it himself.
I believe the Lord’s will is for me to do exactly what I plan to do. I believe that the Lord wants us to be happy, which is why He has provided me with a woman who is also against having children and has made it possible for us to enter a loving relationship without the burden of children.

I am a practicing Catholic, no matter how much you try to claim I am not. Refusing to subscribe to one archaic teaching does not cancel out all of one’s faith. I know in my heart that I’m doing the right thing.
 
It’s no mistake. It’s real freedom. I would never want to go back to 50 years ago. We have made so much progress since then, and it is a good thing.
Well I’m going to shake the dust from my feet and keep moving.
 
There is being selfish and there’s freedom. People tend to view the two as the same thing.

Being selfish is, well, being selfish. It’s when a person leeches off others, seeing them only as tools or useless, doing as little as they can to get as much as they can, feeling upset that others could have success or more than they do, and finds themselves resenting their own family for costing them so much. They never serve God or others, but expect to be served.

Having freedom is the realization that life is not limited to a short list of options. There are so many ways to serve God. God makes use of all kinds of people, whether or not they are single, married, parents or child free. People define God’s will as, “God wants you to live just this way, even if it makes you and the people around you miserable.” God’s will is for us to follow His laws, accept His Son, repent our sins, and always behave with charity, humility, and compassion, spreading His Word and influence by our mouths and our example. That is not inconsistent with a woman being single and earning a degree, or with a couple having no children. Such people are perfectly capable of performing God’s work in the world, and many people who do marry and have children use their familial obligations as an excuse to not serve God in the world, or simply see themselves as having fulfilled an obligation to procreate and thus no further action is needed.

I’ve heard many diatribes against working women and the growth of single women and childless couples, but I haven’t heard an reason for hating them outside of “that’s not the way things used to be”. The assumption that people who determine their own paths in life based on what they feel compelled to do and how they feel they may best serve, rather than just figuring that having a spouse and children is the only way to be, is doing a huge number of good, faithful, Godly people a major disservice.
 
I’ve said my views before. Contraception did not destroy Western society. Wars and problems existed long before contraception. Contraception also allowed women to do more than just be a mother if they wished. From my view, contraception strengthened Western society.
And - and people always forget this - contraception has existed since the beginning of time. It just wasn’t as successful, which is way you would find far, far more abandoned and murdered infants in the Good Old Days than you would today. Just because people physically had more children doesn’t mean they wanted, appreciated or cared for them. Sad but true.
 
You feel Western society has been strengthened since the beginning of the increase of the use of contraception? In what way, specifically? Meaning, what positive social trends have increased? Do you feel this overrides the negative social trends that have spiked since the onset of common use of the pill and condoms?

Why do you think there is such a spike in pornography, violence against women, divorce, and unplanned pregnancy, which has directly coincided with the increased use of BC? Do you think it’s simply a matter of coincidence, a matter of increase studies in this area? You don’t think this has anything to do with the facade that BC has created, encouraging the lack of understanding that sex is powerful and creates human life?

Do you, personally, see children as a burden?
Pornography - has always been around. In fact bawdy bars and prostitution were a LOT more common in the past than they are now. It was widely assumed that most men would have affairs. What modern monarch has appointed a woman as his official court mistress without shame?

Divorce - admittedly grown, but that has nothing to do with contraception. To claim would be the equivalent of saying that Christianity brought down the Roman Empire because the two coincided. Besides, again, it wasn’t unusual in the past for men to just walk away from their families.

Violence against women - again, you’re making a correlation that isn’t there. Women were viewed as objects for making babies throughout history until very, very recently. Wife beating wasn’t illegal in the US until 1882, and even then was rarely prosecuted. The reason violence against women wasn’t reported so often in the past is because it wasn’t viewed as a vice or crime.

Unplanned pregnancy - peaked in the 1950s and later in the early 90s. The decrease since then has been due to, guess what, contraception. The only reason it’s more visible now is that it’s become more acceptable in society in the past few years (thanks, MTV). Would you say that people now glorify teen pregnancy because of contraception?

The one thing I can say is, the world hasn’t changed that much, outside of much that was in the closet before has now been released to the public. If you really look at day-to-day life in history, things weren’t much different in terms of morals and often much worse. Study the past to see it as it really was, when every town had its brothel, boys would be boys by indulging in affairs, beating one’s wife and children was viewed as a man’s God-given right, babies and even older children were abandoned in the wilderness or down wells when their impoverished parents couldn’t care for them anymore or their single servant girl mothers couldn’t live with the shame.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top