R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Deception from Mormon leaders?
Sorry, but my experience is Mormons are deceptive, including a very disordered self-deception. Maybe I have the privilege of being around anomalies. But I’m thinking, not.
- Status
Sorry, but my experience is Mormons are deceptive, including a very disordered self-deception. Maybe I have the privilege of being around anomalies. But I’m thinking, not.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Ah Bart you’ve been reading too much Pahoran
J
JeanMichel
Guest
Knowledge can be a dangerous thing at times. Ignorance is a dangerous thing always. If I have my wires connected properly (in my dotage they get crossed at times), this thing called “outer darkness” is reserved only for those that did not live by faith, i.e. they saw Christ, they KNEW Jesus was the Son of God and still rejected him for Satan. Having a spiritual witness is the very foundation of faith.
Mormons most assuredly believe they can become like Christ. It may be true they do not talk about it very often as becoming gods, but it is what they believe. They will often use a scripture in the New Testament that states we may become joint-heirs through Jesus Christ. Their logic is if they are a joint-heir with Christ then they may inherit the same thing that Jesus inherits.
The Catechism would teach this concept of divinization of man as follows: "460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
The Eastern Orthodox church focuses on this same doctrine, but it is termed Theosis. You may want to look at the Wikipedia article. This doctrine leads to holiness; it is the striving to be like Christ; to exemplify, by the presence of the Holy Spirit, the divine nature of God in our daily life.
This doctrine is a one where much study and prayer should be devoted to gain an understanding. Suffice it to say that some of us spend our entire lives without a need to grasp it. We who follow Christ, partake of his blood and eat his flesh, seek to be his vessels here on earth. We are called to serve others. Study the lives of the Saints that have also provided such wonderful examples to follow. I am trying to keep the words I use simple, but you are at the beginning of a great journey of faith. Many have gone before you and many will come after you. He died for you and invites to you pick up your cross and follow him.
P
PJM
Guest
My dear friend in Christ,
Hi Zipporah,
TRIED TO SEND YOU A PM BUT YO BOX “IS FULL” PLEASE MAKE A BIT OF SPACE FOR ME AND I’LL SEND YOUR REPLY TO YOUR PM…
GOD’S CONTINUED BLESSINGS,
PAT
PJM
Hi Zipporah,
TRIED TO SEND YOU A PM BUT YO BOX “IS FULL” PLEASE MAKE A BIT OF SPACE FOR ME AND I’LL SEND YOUR REPLY TO YOUR PM…
GOD’S CONTINUED BLESSINGS,
PAT
PJM
P
PJM
Guest
***very solid an prudent advice.,
i highly recommend the same course of action!
Love and prayers,
pat***
P
PJM
Guest
Zipporah;, TWO IMPORTANT THOUGHTS FOR YOU TO CONSIDER:
- The 1992 and 1994 Catecheisms are a DIFFICULT READ.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
The USCCB… Unites States Conference of Catholic Bishops have just recently published a EXCELLENT easy to read version entitled: United States Catholic Catechism for adults"
Just Google USCCB to get thre web address. ALSo there is a VERY FINE Briefer version inan easy to read and understand Q&A Format version called "Compendium Catechism of The Catholic Church" which is my recommendation for those considering the CC.
God’s continued Blesings,
Pat
Z
Zipporah
Guest
Explain please…
J
JeanMichel
Guest
For all the harsh criticism Mormons receive about believing that we will become gods, the reality is that these words were very common among the Patristic Fathers of the Church. However, this doctrine of the Divinization of humanity is certainly one of the least understood, most confusing, doctrines of the Western Church. Within the Eastern Church it is far more commonly taught and understood. If you get a chance, look up Theosis on an Eastern Orthodox website, read many articles on it, and you will begin to gain a better understanding. You will also find many articles by Roman scholars that will be equally helpful. I personally find some of the writings of the EO very helpful.
I could very easily explain this improperly because I am seeking a concise, brief way in which to summarize the doctrine. If I do so and others find fault, please forgive me. There is a fundamental difference between Divinization of man and the Exaltation of Man believed by Mormons. Within Catholicism the focus is on receiving the divine nature of Christ in its fullness. We become his sons and daughters in that his Light shines through us. In a very real sense we become one spiritual with the Father and the Son.
In this concept the ECF would say we become gods, but only in nature. In this context gods is limited to dwelling in his nature by the power of the Holy Spirit.
When the Bible teaches us that we will become joint-heirs with Christ, it does not say that we will inherit his Glory. It says we will be joint-heirs; we interpret this to mean that we will not be equal heirs.
These words are inadequate, they are not completely accurate, and they fail to portray the sacredness of this doctrine. It is a glorious gift we are offered. I know others will be better at this than I am. Regardless, do research, read from recognized scholars, and pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Be patient when learning. Just as Rome was not built in a day, nor will you gain a complete understanding of all the teachings of the Catholic Church in a day. This is a lifetime endeavor of joyful study and prayer. It is quite overwhelming to simply contemplate God’s love for us, much less the more difficult doctrines of the Church.
S
SteveVH
Guest
I don’t think your words are inadequate at all.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
JeanMichael…
Great explanation and enough background…
I can’t find this contemplative reflection given by Fr Richard Rohr from this past summer…it hit on an experience I had with my son who is sophomore in college and going through his agnostic stage.
I told him in the past, people believed in multiple gods who warring against each other…gods out there, gods holding imminent destruction over our lives if we don’t do this or that.
What is so wonderful about the Son of Man is that He, through Mary, became human, to become part of us, Who was tempted in all ways but sin. So we see God as someone without sin. The problem is sin and our inclination to do it. Jesus became a part of us to make us new, and to give mankind a new definition of what it is…an extension of God Himself on earth. And so how do we extend the divine of God through Christ on earth? By worshipping God at Mass, living out our daily life living off of God’s live of the Eucharist and sacraments, and serving Christ in those around us. Daily life is the main means we live out our faith—how we treat those around us, how we come to recognize Christ in the difficult people around us, the poor, starving, clothing and naked.
What we cannot do is judge. Only Christ can judge mankind, and He is the one who either accepts or condemns us. We can only trust in His mercy.
As Catholics, we are not fundamentalists, do not believe or use language such as “I am saved because I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior”…we do, but we see our faith more interacting in cooperation with the life of Jesus Christ, our entire faith walk a life long vocation of holiness, with its ups and downs, fidelity and lapses into abandonment, but acknowledging that salvation comes for those who do the Will of God and persevere to the end of their life in Christ. In the end, we cannot brag of anything but of the life of Christ within us.
Our very beings are made of spirit, we are given intelligence and free will. The very core of our being is soul, and as such, as Fr Rohr said, our very DNA is divine…but as receptors…Our DNA at the core of our being is a reflection of the spirit of God…we are alive…but we need the divine life to overcome sin, and to become servants.
The first 3 commandments talk refer to the revelation of Who God is and how we are to serve Him. The other 7 commandments refer to who we are and how we are to treat our neighbor as ourselves. If you look at the catechism, there is quite a bit in it about us…and how we need to grow. And if you look at the world, you see good and bad people and either one makes a tremendous effect on the planet. So people can be capable of either great good or great evil. We can’t see God, but we can see God working in our neighbor. So Christ uses Son of Man more often because it is His mission to redeem and restore us so we can be the human presence of the Divine on earth and be His means of love.
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God…the Father we can’t see. But we can see Christ working in the human being…and that is where we are restored. But we cannot judge, we cannot be glorified in ourselves and for ourselves. The glory is given to God alone. If I find the quote from Fr Rohr, I will bring it here.
Great explanation and enough background…
I can’t find this contemplative reflection given by Fr Richard Rohr from this past summer…it hit on an experience I had with my son who is sophomore in college and going through his agnostic stage.
I told him in the past, people believed in multiple gods who warring against each other…gods out there, gods holding imminent destruction over our lives if we don’t do this or that.
What is so wonderful about the Son of Man is that He, through Mary, became human, to become part of us, Who was tempted in all ways but sin. So we see God as someone without sin. The problem is sin and our inclination to do it. Jesus became a part of us to make us new, and to give mankind a new definition of what it is…an extension of God Himself on earth. And so how do we extend the divine of God through Christ on earth? By worshipping God at Mass, living out our daily life living off of God’s live of the Eucharist and sacraments, and serving Christ in those around us. Daily life is the main means we live out our faith—how we treat those around us, how we come to recognize Christ in the difficult people around us, the poor, starving, clothing and naked.
What we cannot do is judge. Only Christ can judge mankind, and He is the one who either accepts or condemns us. We can only trust in His mercy.
As Catholics, we are not fundamentalists, do not believe or use language such as “I am saved because I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior”…we do, but we see our faith more interacting in cooperation with the life of Jesus Christ, our entire faith walk a life long vocation of holiness, with its ups and downs, fidelity and lapses into abandonment, but acknowledging that salvation comes for those who do the Will of God and persevere to the end of their life in Christ. In the end, we cannot brag of anything but of the life of Christ within us.
Our very beings are made of spirit, we are given intelligence and free will. The very core of our being is soul, and as such, as Fr Rohr said, our very DNA is divine…but as receptors…Our DNA at the core of our being is a reflection of the spirit of God…we are alive…but we need the divine life to overcome sin, and to become servants.
The first 3 commandments talk refer to the revelation of Who God is and how we are to serve Him. The other 7 commandments refer to who we are and how we are to treat our neighbor as ourselves. If you look at the catechism, there is quite a bit in it about us…and how we need to grow. And if you look at the world, you see good and bad people and either one makes a tremendous effect on the planet. So people can be capable of either great good or great evil. We can’t see God, but we can see God working in our neighbor. So Christ uses Son of Man more often because it is His mission to redeem and restore us so we can be the human presence of the Divine on earth and be His means of love.
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God…the Father we can’t see. But we can see Christ working in the human being…and that is where we are restored. But we cannot judge, we cannot be glorified in ourselves and for ourselves. The glory is given to God alone. If I find the quote from Fr Rohr, I will bring it here.
P
PJM
Guest
THIS FROM THE 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**CCC # 460 **The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, ***might become a son of God.” ***“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” "The only-begotten **Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
/COLOR]***Friends I post this in hopes of not only pointing out a serious error; but to advise that when one hears an incredible statement such as “we are to become god’s,” attributed the the CC, ONE MUST INVESTIGATE IT!
There is an Eternity of difference between “SONS OF GOD,” which is what it says! and becomming like the Mormons “gods” themselves as is there belief.***
The message here is the it is God’s desire that everyone attain heaven. If and when we accomplish this; we too have been PERFECTED by God. It is the issue of necessary perfection [the price of admission to heaven] that then fulfills fully and perfectly HOW GOD CREATED us in His Own Image. *****Gen. 1:26-27/*****I] Take note of the HIGHLY signifient FACT that a "SMALL “g” is used; not the capitol “G” ones uses to describe God Himself. Thus infuring “in His image and likeness.”
God’s continued Blessings,
Pat
Check it out yourself:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/htm
In the search box type in 460 and enter**
G
gatewood1988
Guest
This is a duplicate posting, but I hope it helps you Zipporah 
I was raised in a very strict Mormon family and I am the first person since the beginning of the Mormon church in my family to leave it. After many hours of research on Mormon beliefs, I came to the conclusion that there are things that don’t match up doctrinally with the Bible. I was very disturbed by these things. The few things that bothered me the most was:
I was raised in a very strict Mormon family and I am the first person since the beginning of the Mormon church in my family to leave it. After many hours of research on Mormon beliefs, I came to the conclusion that there are things that don’t match up doctrinally with the Bible. I was very disturbed by these things. The few things that bothered me the most was:
- Mormons do not believe in a 3-in one Trinity. They believe that there are three separate flesh and blood beings that make up the Trinity.
- Mormons believe that God was originally human and acheived Godhead through the marrying of someone for time and all eternity (God has a wife, we just don’t know her name according to the Mormon church) and following the teachings of what the Mormon church teaches.
- Marriage for time and all eternity. Jesus Himself said there is not marriage in Heaven.
- Human beings can become “gods” by living according to the teachings of the Mormon church and can create their own worlds.
- The deceased become angels. Ex: Angel Moroni (Was a Nephite general in the Book of Mormon) who appeared to Joseph Smith.
- There is no archaeological evidence that the battles of the Book of Mormon ever took place in North or South America or that there was a Jewish culture in these regions before Christ and during the time of the early Christians.
- There was a prophet in the Book of Mormon that actually names the Messiah as Jesus before Jesus was born and before even Mary knew what to name Jesus.
- Jesus came to the Americas after the Ascension to Heaven and before sitting at the right hand of the Father.
- The final meeting place for the faithful is at Adam-Ondi-Oman, a valley in Missouri. Where the battle of Armaggedon will begin.
- Most mainstream Mormons think that the Catholic church is the Church of the devil. (They will not admit it publicly)
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Thank you for such a succinct explanation of Mormon teachings - this is exactly how Mormon missionaries have explained their beliefs to me over the years.
Alex
Alex
J
JeanMichel
Guest
Gate, I am sorry to tell you this, but as someone with a relatively good understanding of Mormonism, your statement of their beliefs is filled with errors. I don’t need to defend their doctrines, but I strongly encourage you not to repeat untruths about another church’s faith. Ignorance parading as knowledge is dangerous not only for you, but for others. Anyone that agrees with your statements as if they were accurate, is also, unfortunately, lacking in both knowledge and understanding.This is a duplicate posting, but I hope it helps you Zipporah
I was raised in a very strict Mormon family and I am the first person since the beginning of the Mormon church in my family to leave it. After many hours of research on Mormon beliefs, I came to the conclusion that there are things that don’t match up doctrinally with the Bible. I was very disturbed by these things. The few things that bothered me the most was:
These are just a few issues I did have with the Mormon faith. I am not trying to bash them in anyway, after all my whole family is Mormon and I do respect the Mormon church’s emphasis on family. I am grateful that because of my doubt in the Mormon faith, I was able to research and find the truth in Catholicism.
- Mormons do not believe in a 3-in one Trinity. They believe that there are three separate flesh and blood beings that make up the Trinity.
- Mormons believe that God was originally human and acheived Godhead through the marrying of someone for time and all eternity (God has a wife, we just don’t know her name according to the Mormon church) and following the teachings of what the Mormon church teaches.
- Marriage for time and all eternity. Jesus Himself said there is not marriage in Heaven.
- Human beings can become “gods” by living according to the teachings of the Mormon church and can create their own worlds.
- The deceased become angels. Ex: Angel Moroni (Was a Nephite general in the Book of Mormon) who appeared to Joseph Smith.
- There is no archaeological evidence that the battles of the Book of Mormon ever took place in North or South America or that there was a Jewish culture in these regions before Christ and during the time of the early Christians.
- There was a prophet in the Book of Mormon that actually names the Messiah as Jesus before Jesus was born and before even Mary knew what to name Jesus.
- Jesus came to the Americas after the Ascension to Heaven and before sitting at the right hand of the Father.
- The final meeting place for the faithful is at Adam-Ondi-Oman, a valley in Missouri. Where the battle of Armaggedon will begin.
- Most mainstream Mormons think that the Catholic church is the Church of the devil. (They will not admit it publicly)
When truth exists, there is not need to attack anything. You stand on truth, proclaim it and ignore everything else.
G
gatewood1988
Guest
I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I was just listing the things that I have been told since childhood through my parents’ teachings, the Elders of the Mormon church ( my old Bishop), and my four years in the seminary program through the LDS church and with things I have found through my personal spiritual walk. Again I am sorry, I still do hold a deep respect for the LDS church since it is how I was raised and never meant to hurt anyone. I still will, however, stand firm in my faith for the Catholic church and am willing to uphold the truths that are taught within Her. I want to help those come home to Her as well as I did.
God Bless,
gatewood1988
-Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you save souls.
-St. Joseph Pray For Us
-St. Pio Pray For Us
God Bless,
gatewood1988
-Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you save souls.
-St. Joseph Pray For Us
-St. Pio Pray For Us
- Our Lady of Guadalupe Pray For Us
T
Todd520
Guest
You are wrong Stephen, I show the parallels in teachings but I have never said they are exactly the same.
You should not be embarassed by what the Catholic Church teaches. It is not shameful.
T
Todd520
Guest
I am urging caution before you believe you fully understand what a faith believes.
The man become God quote is just an often flagged example by anti-mormons on how strange LDS is, yet there are parallels with Catholic teachings. I simplify it down to ‘the more christlike we become now, the more christlike we will become.’ There are many Catholics who don’t know the Catholic version of this teaching, and there are many LDS who don’t understand the LDS version correctly. Theology is complicated and must be pursued with an open heart. It’s too easy to find a possible fault and box up the whole faith as bad.
There are other errors in this thread as well, like around the Trinity
- LDS believe the Father and Son are flesh and bone, but not the Holy Ghost as stated.
- LDS believe they are seperate beings, not just seperate persons (this is the crux of the difference with Catholic teachings)
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
I don’t see where Stephen showed any embarrassment concerning the teaching. He is just show irritation over your insinuation that our beliefs are the same. While you may not have said so implicitly by leaving it at the quote alone the implication is there.
Stephen168
New member
Exactly. And It was also the second time he tried to suggest that I might be embarrassed by what the Catholic Church teaches on this subject; so another dishonest statement.
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