Where does word of God teach the Catholic Church is infallible?

[De_Maria]

Would God establish a Church that is fallible in its teachings?

Ahem, yes he would. Judaism for example.

Are the Ten Commandments fallible? Did God not establish Judaism with those Teachings?

I think you’re answering the question, “Did God establish a fallible church in the OT?”

To which I would also say yes.

Let me highlight the difference that I see between Judaism and Catholicism.

God established Judaism upon infallible Teaching. Even Jesus said:

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

But God foretold that Judaism would pass away. He said:

Deuteronomy 28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the Lord shall lead thee.

But Jesus Christ established an infallible Church with infallible Teaching. That is why Jesus said that the Church would never fall:

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And why Scripture describes the Church as a pillar and floor of the Truth. Those are permanent structures.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And that the Church would Teach the infallible wisdom of God even in eternity (i.e. heaven):

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

So, God established a fallible Judaism with the infallible Commandments which He commanded them to teach to all generation.

But Jesus established an infallible Catholic Church which He commanded to Teach His infallible world to the entire world until the end of time.

Also the Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox was not created by God. It broke away from the Church which was created by God.

Anglicanism, Presbyterianism and Lutherans believe they are established by God and don’t hold to the sort of infallibility that our Church holds to. They follow the same Scriptures as we do.

I disagree, Lutherans broke away from the Catholic Church and were established by Luther. As did Anglicanism and was established by King Henry. But Presbyterianism splintered from Calvinism which splintered from Lutheranism.

I suppose it depends what we mean by “infallible”.
Any organisation is infallible in the sense that anyone who doesn’t toe the party line is out.
In other words who is left to say they are wrong.

Infallibility has to do with the permanence of the institution and with the inerrant nature of it’s preaching.

 

[lanman87]

Would God establish a Church that is fallible in its teachings? Would He establish a church which is internally divided in its teachings? And if not, where is that church? Either way, there can only be “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” Eph 4:5

The teachings of Christ and the Gospel message are infallible. They are the truth. What is equally true is the we (humans) are fallible. To say the church is fallible in no way undermines the truth of the Gospel. What it does is confess that we are sinners who don’t always follow or teach the Gospel truth due to our fallen nature. We are subject to influences of culture, philosophy, teachings, our experiences and our own selfishness and pride. This is true of every Church Father, Theologian, Pope, Bishop, Priest, Pastor, Preacher, Evangelist, Deacon, Monk, Nun and Layman in history.

It if very possible that a false belief could be accepted by the majority of Christians or a theologian to make a convincing argument for something that sounds really good but was not part of the gospel as taught by the Jesus and the apostles, and then the belief filter up into the magisterium of the church then eventually be declared as part of Sacred Tradition. And once it is declared as part of Sacred Tradition it cannot be wrong because of the belief that the Church cannot be wrong.

 

[De_Maria]

The teachings of Christ and the Gospel message are infallible. They are the truth.

We would say that they contain no error. They are inerrant. When the Catholic Church wrote them, it was Her first exercise of infallible writing. If the Catholic Church were not infallible. That is to say, if the Catholic Church were not protected from error by the Holy Spirit, neither the Gospels nor the New Testament would be without error.

What is equally true is the we (humans) are fallible.

Agreed.

To say the church is fallible in no way undermines the truth of the Gospel.

Let’s consider dyslexia. The Gospels are written without error. But would a dyslexic person be able to read the Gospels without stumbling and coming up with error.

What it does is confess that we are sinners who don’t always follow or teach the Gospel truth due to our fallen nature.

Agreed.

We are subject to influences of culture, philosophy, teachings, our experiences and our own selfishness and pride. This is true of every Church Father, Theologian, Pope, Bishop, Priest, Pastor, Preacher, Evangelist, Deacon, Monk, Nun and Layman in history.

Mostly true. Except in the case of the Pope speaking ex-cathedra or the Church speaking in an ecumenical gathering in union with the Pope.

It if very possible that a false belief could be accepted by the majority of Christians or a theologian to make a convincing argument for something that sounds really good but was not part of the gospel as taught by the Jesus and the apostles, and then the belief filter up into the magisterium of the church then eventually be declared as part of Sacred Tradition. And once it is declared as part of Sacred Tradition it cannot be wrong because of the belief that the Church cannot be wrong.

No, it isn’t. We have faith that Jesus Christ will always be with the Church protecting His Teachings.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And that any developments in Doctrine will be inspired by God, the Holy Spirit, who can not deceive nor be deceived.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Apparently, your group does not have faith that God will ensure that His Word will have the desired result.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

 

[lanman87]

ohn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Being shown what is truth and holding to it are different things. I have know doubt that God revealed His truth through Christ and the Apostles. However, I don’t hold to the notion that we (as humans) listen and obey the truth perfectly.

Apparently, your group does not have faith that God will ensure that His Word will have the desired result.

On the contrary. God’s will accomplish His will. But He does it despite our sinfulness and misunderstandings. God’s providence is shown throughout the Old Testament as He used both peoples obedience and sinfulness to accomplish His purposes. As Joseph told his brothers, “What you meant for evil God meant for good”.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

Would God establish a Church that is fallible in its teachings? Would He establish a church which is internally divided in its teachings? And if not, where is that church? Either way, there can only be “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” Eph 4:5

The teachings of Christ and the Gospel message are infallible. They are the truth. What is equally true is the we (humans) are fallible. To say the church is fallible in no way undermines the truth of the Gospel. What it does is confess that we are sinners who don’t always follow or teach the Gospel truth due to our fallen nature. We are subject to influences of culture, philosophy, teachings, our experiences and our own selfishness and pride. This is true of every Church Father, Theologian, Pope, Bishop, Priest, Pastor, Preacher, Evangelist, Deacon, Monk, Nun and Layman in history.

It if very possible that a false belief could be accepted by the majority of Christians or a theologian to make a convincing argument for something that sounds really good but was not part of the gospel as taught by the Jesus and the apostles, and then the belief filter up into the magisterium of the church then eventually be declared as part of Sacred Tradition. And once it is declared as part of Sacred Tradition it cannot be wrong because of the belief that the Church cannot be wrong.

Those who rely on an authority other than the Church that God established, generally relying instead on Scripture alone but also on a variety of theologies that have popped up mainly via the Reformation, don’t even agree on things as basic as baptismal regeneration, a matter of soteriology, whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation, among other relevant doctrines.

 

[De_Maria]

Being shown what is truth and holding to it are different things.

Agreed.

I have know doubt that God revealed His truth through Christ and the Apostles.

Nor do I.

However, I don’t hold to the notion that we (as humans) listen and obey the truth perfectly.

Nor do I.

On the contrary. God’s will accomplish His will. But He does it despite our sinfulness and misunderstandings. God’s providence is shown throughout the Old Testament as He used both peoples obedience and sinfulness to accomplish His purposes. As Joseph told his brothers, “What you meant for evil God meant for good”.

But, you forget. God foretold that the Jews would not be able to obey the Truth.

1 Kings 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

But Jesus Christ predicted that the Church would Teach what He commanded to the ends of the earth:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And Scripture says that the Church will Teach the wisdom of God even in eternity:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Now, back to your original statement:

Being shown what is truth…

How does Scripture say that we are shown what is truth? Does Scripture say that we must read it in Scripture?

The Jews had the Scriptures, but they could not find Jesus in them.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Even the Apostles could not, Jesus had to open the Scriptures to them:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Thus, they needed Jesus to TEACH them. Now look what Jesus said:

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

The Father sent Jesus to Teach. And Jesus, in turn, sent the Church to Teach:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And what did the Apostles do?

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Do you see any resemblance between Acts 17:1-3 and Luke 24:44-46?

 

[BlackFriar]

You seem to be confusing objective and subjective perspectives.
And yes all the above religions believe they are of God…why would you deny that objective likiihood?
Judaism and the Orthodox Church survive well without imitating the high Magisterial infallibility of the Catholic Church.

 

[De_Maria]

You seem to be confusing objective and subjective perspectives.
And yes all the above religions believe they are of God…why would you deny that objective likiihood?

Because I can objectively trace their inception date back in time through history.

 

[PJM]

Thanks for sharing.

So just WHAT to today’s Lutherans hold to be in “errors” of the Teachings of the RCC, and on WHAT basis?

I’d really like to discuss this with you.

God Bless,
Patrick

 

[lanman87]

Those who rely on an authority other than the Church that God established, generally relying instead on Scripture alone but also on a variety of theologies that have popped up mainly via the Reformation, don’t even agree on things as basic as baptismal regeneration, a matter of soteriology, whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation, among other relevant doctrines.

That is because of a couple of things. One of them being the same thing I said in the earlier post.

We are subject to influences of culture, philosophy, teachings, our experiences and our own selfishness and pride. This is true of every Church Father, Theologian, Pope, Bishop, Priest, Pastor, Preacher, Evangelist, Deacon, Monk, Nun and Layman in history.

Protestants are just as subject to those things as anyone else.

In addition, there is no longer a penalty to be had for not conforming to Catholic Theology. If you disagreed with the Catholic church during the middle ages you could be put to death. Once the political situation changed and that was no longer the case we saw an increase in different theological opinions. Sadly, once those (Protestant) opinions became the majority in some areas, Catholics could be put to death for disagreeing with Protestant theology.

Ultimately, in the age of freedom of religion, we all can choose what theology we agree with or create our own theology or have no belief at all.

 

[benjohnson]

So just WHAT to today’s Lutherans hold to be in “errors” of the Teachings of the RCC, and on WHAT basis?

Hi Patrick! It’s good to be back at CAF and to see you here! I’ve always enjoyed your Apologetis over the years.

Speaking for myself, the way Lutherans and Catholics sometimes disagree about Justification and the limits of the Primacy of Peter are the two main things that divide us. We derive our distinction by placing primacy of the Word of God as the ultimate authority among other good authorities. Of course, the Word of God needs to be interpreted by the Church.

That said, as a Lutheran, I’m thankful for the Catholic Church for proclaiming the Gospel during these difficult times - and especially for being steadfast in calling all Christians to remember the poor, and to remember the defenseless, and to remember our God given morality.

 

[De_Maria]

Anyone who commits any sin, no matter whether they be priests or protestants, does it despite the Holy Teachings of the Catholic Church, not because of them.

 

[De_Maria]

Actually, God wants to share His glory with those whom He loves.

Hebrews 13:7King James Version (KJV)

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Matthew 10:41
King James Version
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

 

[yankeesouth]

I see this a lot when Catholics proclaim the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church. We get accused of being aggressive/arrogant lol.

The Catholic Church was founded by the One who said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. A pretty arrogant statement. In fact He was killed because of it. Truth has always been accused of arrogance.

Keep up the Good Work!

 

[fhansen]

unintentionally posted

 

[spina1953]

The Church is infallible as long as God’s Word is infallible that is God’s Word is indeed infallible and as long as the Church teaches and preaches the truth of God’s Word then it is infallible. Man of himself is not infallible it is the Holy Spirit the truth of God’s Word that is really what is infallible and as long as the Church does not change God’s Word then its infallible. Remember, Jesus told the Apostles to preach the Good news to all nations what Jesus taught them and so far as I know and understand the Church has done that since the time of the Apostles and continues to this day.

 

[De_Maria]

Huh??? De Maria, you make no sense!

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

 

[De_Maria]

Tg Godsway thank you for the truths you.point out, someone needs to boldly proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ & our need for a saviour.

The Catholic Church does that, infallibly.

 

[BlackFriar]

Why would you believe Judaism and Orthodox Catholicism are not founded by God?