B
bolek102
Guest
Why would he be intimate with a woman before being married? Fornication is a sin.
- Status
X
Xantippe
Guest
Some thoughts:
–26-year-old and 27-year-old women are not withered old crones.
–The kind of girl who has been chasing boys since 15 is not necessarily going to make a great wife. In fact, I’m sure most of us can think of examples of girls who were like that, got married at 18+, and then were divorced by their early 20s.
–Outside of Roy Moore and his defenders, mainstream America does not consider 15-year-old girls full grown adults who should be out looking for a husband.
–Modern high schoolers generally are often very sheltered in terms of freedom of movement.
“12th-graders in 2015 were going out less often than eighth-graders did as recently as 2009.”
99% of the time, my kids are either at school functions, at home, or at some chaperoned event.
–For a substantial chunk of the 15-25 year span, contemporary parents have a lot of responsibility for what their child’s social life looks like. The choices that parents make with regard to where they live, choice of high school, facilitating their kid’s social life, therapy, investment in child’s health and appearance, having a social life of their own, kid academics, college or other post high school training, etc., are going to shape the 15-25 year old’s social life in important ways.
–Another issue is that there are a lot of social late bloomers of both sexes. While it’s true that there are 15-year-olds more than capable of “roping in a man,” there’s a substantial minority of quieter, more introverted, less social girls who may take longer to learn social graces and how to be a girl (I believe there are a lot of those on CAF). That doesn’t mean that they are going to be a worse wife than a girl who has had non-stop boyfriends since 13, in fact au contraire.
–Again, I have a 15-year-old daughter. The idea that she is supposed to be “roping in a man” now is ridiculous. Right now, she’s working on her pre-calculus and physics. She didn’t get a date to homecoming (boohoo!) but it’s not the end of the world. She’s never going to have this good an opportunity to work on her intellectual foundations. Also, she’s still in the process of learning to be a friend to people of both sexes and she has insisted for years that she doesn’t want to get married. I don’t argue with her, because I think it’s fine for a high schooler to just focus on school and friends.
R
Rachellem56
Guest
Friends,
There are a lot of wrong and antiquated ideas in this thread but I wanted to specifically address the single-mother bashing that I’ve seen here. I know of one very Catholic couple where the mother was a single mother. My mother is engaged to a good, kind Catholic man who views me and my 5 siblings as his children already and refers to us as such. Being human entails that we make mistakes, which come in many forms. A woman could be a single mother because she was raped and pro-life, was coerced or manipulated in a relationship, widowed, or had children out of wedlock and converted later on. There are just so many people judging single moms without knowing their stories. A lot of ruling out people without first seeking to understand. A lot of people have issues with another man’s child, but Joseph married Mary knowing that her child wasn’t his. I just want to out it out there that OP (and any in his position) should be praying for discernment and to find the partner God has designated for him. Oftentimes, God doesn’t give us exactly what we pray for because He knows better. The wife God has in mind for him just might be a feminist, single mother, over 25, and/or come from a divorced home. If so, I’m sure she will teach him something. As a Catholic, he should be open to whatever God sends him.
There are a lot of wrong and antiquated ideas in this thread but I wanted to specifically address the single-mother bashing that I’ve seen here. I know of one very Catholic couple where the mother was a single mother. My mother is engaged to a good, kind Catholic man who views me and my 5 siblings as his children already and refers to us as such. Being human entails that we make mistakes, which come in many forms. A woman could be a single mother because she was raped and pro-life, was coerced or manipulated in a relationship, widowed, or had children out of wedlock and converted later on. There are just so many people judging single moms without knowing their stories. A lot of ruling out people without first seeking to understand. A lot of people have issues with another man’s child, but Joseph married Mary knowing that her child wasn’t his. I just want to out it out there that OP (and any in his position) should be praying for discernment and to find the partner God has designated for him. Oftentimes, God doesn’t give us exactly what we pray for because He knows better. The wife God has in mind for him just might be a feminist, single mother, over 25, and/or come from a divorced home. If so, I’m sure she will teach him something. As a Catholic, he should be open to whatever God sends him.
Last edited:
X
Xantippe
Guest
Another point about single women over 25:
A lot of serious Christian women find that a refusal to engage in premarital sex is a handicap in finding a husband. Obviously, it’s not a handicap in finding a serious, committed, practicing Catholic husband, but it is a serious handicap for “roping in a man.” The mainstream path to marriage today involves premarital sex and cohabitation, so a woman who refuses those things is going to have fewer opportunities for marriage, so it’s going to take longer for her to find a husband.
It’s a pretty bitter pill to swallow if chastity means both being passed over by secular and less serious Christian men for not having premarital sex AND being passed over by (theoretically) serious Christian men who wonder why you aren’t married yet.
This is kind of like the joke about the old and the young economist walking down the street:
"The young economist looks down and sees a $20 bill on the street and says, “Hey, look a twenty-dollar bill!”
Without even looking, his older and wiser colleague replies, “Nonsense. If there had been a twenty-dollar lying on the street, someone would have already picked it up by now.”
A lot of serious Christian women find that a refusal to engage in premarital sex is a handicap in finding a husband. Obviously, it’s not a handicap in finding a serious, committed, practicing Catholic husband, but it is a serious handicap for “roping in a man.” The mainstream path to marriage today involves premarital sex and cohabitation, so a woman who refuses those things is going to have fewer opportunities for marriage, so it’s going to take longer for her to find a husband.
It’s a pretty bitter pill to swallow if chastity means both being passed over by secular and less serious Christian men for not having premarital sex AND being passed over by (theoretically) serious Christian men who wonder why you aren’t married yet.
This is kind of like the joke about the old and the young economist walking down the street:
"The young economist looks down and sees a $20 bill on the street and says, “Hey, look a twenty-dollar bill!”
Without even looking, his older and wiser colleague replies, “Nonsense. If there had been a twenty-dollar lying on the street, someone would have already picked it up by now.”
Last edited:
L
Lara
Guest
Rachellem56, you’re absolutely steeped in modern ideas which conflict with God’s plan. Feminism is not about the three things you mentioned. They were all there before the 1970’s. Any man before then knew that women had equal dignity to him. In fact, they quite possibly had more respect for women. Consider what atrocities men were willing to fight when they signed up to fight in the Second World War. Equal payment to men has already been discussed somewhat in this thread. Women are quoting statistics that just aren’t true.
Let me explain what feminism is today. Feminism is 1) women believing that their beliefs about the world take precedence over those of men, and children. By children I mean, they will not consider the pain a child goes through after they choose divorce. 2) Feminism is on the backs of unborn children. One of the most tragic things is abortion and mainstream feminism supports it. I know there are a few groups who claim to be feminist and pro-life but the main movement is not controlled by these women. 3) Feminism supports homosexual unions, and the dissolution of gender. Basically women are putting themselves on the level of God, deciding that what they say is more important than what He has to say.
Women should show at least some deference to men AND vice versa. But for men that deference may show in different ways. In my view, men are made more for sacrifice, and women more for service.
Now, I’m an independent head-strong woman. And all the feminists you talk about, I’ve seen. They let their husbands drive the car when they’re out together. When I ask who mows the lawn, they say stuff like, my husband, of course! They yammer on about environmentalism, but throw piles and piles of Pampers in the trash. They drive the car to get to the Pamper store in the middle of the week, when they should have known on grocery day what they’d need three days later. When I tell them all my ambitions, or want to talk politics, they look at me blankly and talk about something their friend said that offended them. In fact, I’ve rarely met anybody as ambitious as I, and I’m not a feminist. I can’t find women who will play tennis with me. For all their ambition, women like to sit and have tea and criticize others. So I end up having to play tennis with men. Then after one game or two or whatever, their wives get jealous, and I have to look for another tennis partner.
The hard-core feminists have a chip on their shoulder and it’s difficult for a man to find his way to her heart. It’s even difficult for me to find kindness in those women and be their friends. For a man, there’s only so much circumnavigating he can do to meet his goal. He can only handle “x” amount of acrimony. Read your post and ask yourself if you’re an easy person to talk to for a guy. That’s the topic of the post, essentially how does a guy find a good Catholic woman who will be like a soft pillow, not like a barb-wired fence.
Let me explain what feminism is today. Feminism is 1) women believing that their beliefs about the world take precedence over those of men, and children. By children I mean, they will not consider the pain a child goes through after they choose divorce. 2) Feminism is on the backs of unborn children. One of the most tragic things is abortion and mainstream feminism supports it. I know there are a few groups who claim to be feminist and pro-life but the main movement is not controlled by these women. 3) Feminism supports homosexual unions, and the dissolution of gender. Basically women are putting themselves on the level of God, deciding that what they say is more important than what He has to say.
Women should show at least some deference to men AND vice versa. But for men that deference may show in different ways. In my view, men are made more for sacrifice, and women more for service.
Now, I’m an independent head-strong woman. And all the feminists you talk about, I’ve seen. They let their husbands drive the car when they’re out together. When I ask who mows the lawn, they say stuff like, my husband, of course! They yammer on about environmentalism, but throw piles and piles of Pampers in the trash. They drive the car to get to the Pamper store in the middle of the week, when they should have known on grocery day what they’d need three days later. When I tell them all my ambitions, or want to talk politics, they look at me blankly and talk about something their friend said that offended them. In fact, I’ve rarely met anybody as ambitious as I, and I’m not a feminist. I can’t find women who will play tennis with me. For all their ambition, women like to sit and have tea and criticize others. So I end up having to play tennis with men. Then after one game or two or whatever, their wives get jealous, and I have to look for another tennis partner.
The hard-core feminists have a chip on their shoulder and it’s difficult for a man to find his way to her heart. It’s even difficult for me to find kindness in those women and be their friends. For a man, there’s only so much circumnavigating he can do to meet his goal. He can only handle “x” amount of acrimony. Read your post and ask yourself if you’re an easy person to talk to for a guy. That’s the topic of the post, essentially how does a guy find a good Catholic woman who will be like a soft pillow, not like a barb-wired fence.
Last edited:
D
Daisy
Guest
It seems to be a Katy Perry, Glamour magazine feminism that we suffer today. What I find completely devastating is that the cool, modernized feminism seems to revolve around the God of sex and utility, so we are still dealing with a young woman finding their value and power in those things that are object oriented, such as their sexual utility and financial success. Its such a huge facade, certainly the work of the devil.
Some areas simply better than others when it comes to meeting Catholic singles. I live in the Seattle area and have pretty much given up on meeting women, especially a Catholic woman. In the Seattle area, thanks to the tech boom, for every 100 single women, there are reportedly 144 single men. I’ll take my dog for a walk at the beach and see a dozen or so other guys walking their dogs, but no women. I take various classes (photography, bonsai, cooking) and lots of men, but no women. Same with church. A buddy of mine suggested I take a dance class, but not sure how I’d feel about dancing with men and knowing my luck, there won’t be any women there. 
T
twf
Guest
At least here in Canada, marriages contracted under the age of 25 have a 75% divorce rate. Get married too young and it’s very likely to fail. The average marrying age is now late 20s.
R
Rachellem56
Guest
I hope you’re not correcting me on my own beliefs. That just sounds arrogant, and you can’t use anecdotal examples of a handful of people you know to generalize what every person under that label believes.
In my earlier post, I paraphrased the Oxford Dictionary Definition of feminism, which is the only one you could go by since it is such a broad movement and label.
Let’s make a comparison. Feminism has so many different waves and sub-movements that it could be compared to Christianity, since Christianity is like an umbrella with so many different denominations. Many of these denominations disagree on their interpretations of the Bible and such but they all claim to follow Christ. You can’t say that all denominations do or believe something that only one practices. The same is true of feminism, where many sub-movements disagree on different things but all believe that women should be equal to, not better than, men.
Environmentalism and mowing the lawns or driving has nothing to do with feminism. That’s probably personal preference or how they like to divide up the chores, which women still statistically do more of in households.
In my earlier post, I paraphrased the Oxford Dictionary Definition of feminism, which is the only one you could go by since it is such a broad movement and label.
Let’s make a comparison. Feminism has so many different waves and sub-movements that it could be compared to Christianity, since Christianity is like an umbrella with so many different denominations. Many of these denominations disagree on their interpretations of the Bible and such but they all claim to follow Christ. You can’t say that all denominations do or believe something that only one practices. The same is true of feminism, where many sub-movements disagree on different things but all believe that women should be equal to, not better than, men.
So if this is true, why were so many women women relegated to cleaning and cooking and beaten by their husbands? Not to mention all the sexist vintage ads, some which even explicitly stated that men are better than women. You’re enjoying freedoms now that you wouldn’t have been able to before women fought for their rights, and some that women in other parts of the world don’t have, now you’re taking that for granted. You can drive, choose to go to school, and even run for president. Your ability to play tennis with other men was something that Title IX fought for. And yet feminism is bad?
So where do you get your “true” statistics from?
Environmentalism and mowing the lawns or driving has nothing to do with feminism. That’s probably personal preference or how they like to divide up the chores, which women still statistically do more of in households.
Their beliefs are still compatible with the Oxford definition.
Now you’re coming off as a “pick me” type here. You called yourself an “independent and head-strong” woman earlier in the post, so why are you now discouraging that behavior? You didn’t say that about the men who made posts like this on this thread. The fact that you take issue with a woman holding debate and having ideas says a lot more about you than me and indicates internalized sexism. And funny you say “easy for a man to talk to”. I find that a lot of men actually love my intellect and love debating with me. They don’t like boring girls who just agree with whatever they say. This isn’t the Victorian era where we’re expected to catch a husband by coyly peering over our fans.
Last edited:
X
Xantippe
Guest
Not really. I’ve mentioned before the story of some of my relatives, where a mother wanted to leave her husband in the 1950s, but her parents would not take her in–and no, there really wasn’t anyplace for a mother of a large family to go (remember that women’s shelters were a creation of the 1970s). The father of that family was extremely abusive and molested two generations of girls. There’s much more awareness and much less toleration of that sort of thing today. A wife and mother in that situation is much better off today than 60 years ago–there are places she can go and people who can help her and the children.
I’m not sure I see the difference between those two things.
Shudder, a woman left her home twice a week to buy groceries!
Do you see the irony of posting this post and writing that?
Bear in mind, that there’s a certain amount of toughness necessary for a chaste gal on her own–one needs to be able to say “no” and make it stick. Motherhood requires a lot of toughness. I’m finishing up 3 years of potty training a moderately special needs child (she’s 5+) who was still having a lot of poop accidents at 4.5. We have three children, two of which are special needs. The older one is doing great now, but when she was younger, there were two years where she threw multi-hour tantrums. I’m probably looking at 2-3 years of very intensive work on the youngest. If I were just a soft pillow, I couldn’t do what I need to do for my family.
Lastly, I have to point out that a lot of times, Catholic women don’t really think of themselves as feminists, right up until they defend the idea that they have human dignity and would like to be treated fairly, and then a chorus of manosphere guys starts yelling, “FEMINIST!” I know I’ve had that exact experience myself on CAF. All you have to do is speak up for women’s dignity and basic justice, and you’re going to find yourself called a feminist. (In some less savory corners of the internet, manosphere guys say that CAF women are 99% feminist, to give you an idea of how low the bar is set for being feminist.)
Fortunately, I’ve got enough barbed wire in my constitution that being called a feminist doesn’t hurt my feelings, especially since I know that the manosphere definition of feminist is “woman who doesn’t think of marriage as a master-slave relationship” or “woman who has self respect and a sense of justice.”
H
Hope_Philomena
Guest
It’s a pet peeve of mine to see people romanticizing the past like this. It’s wrong, on all accounts.
Wow, you’re just so much better than all those silly feminists, huh? What does 99% of what you’re saying have to do with feminism?
You don’t even have to call it feminism if you take such issue with the term. What I and others on this thread are encouraging is not this “feminism” you perceive. You can call it: women-and-men-are-socially-equal-and-deserve-equal-treatment-ism.
Do you take issue with women-and-men-are-socially-equal-and-deserve-equal-treatment-ism?
X
Xantippe
Guest
Like it or not, there are very, very few people on CAF who met their future spouse via their home parish.
The home parish just doesn’t typically offer a large enough pool of people of the appropriate sex, age, etc.
In fact, I’d go further and say that while I have often gone to Mass with people I know, I have never made friends through a parish.
Last edited:
C
CatholicSpirit
Guest
The only problem I’ve seen is when a guy has a smoking hot Catholic girlfriend and isn’t popping the question. That makes waves but hopefully those waves are like “pop the question, she’s a rare one!” (Actually going to church on a Sunday) It can also be harsh because women are materialistic these days. Lots of women want certain stats that make me laugh when I consider heaven. They take their chances with a buff guy riding a fast car homeowner and all. Funny how burning in purgatory compares to all that. Men going to meet a woman at church are saying “I’ll take a 7/10 over a 10/10 on looks if it means pleasing The Lord.” Thing is, we got grimy competition who indulge in the worldly things. At this rate I’m about to consider Muslim dating sites because people who think going to find a wife at church is wrong are wack.
Last edited:
S
Spyridon
Guest
You ought to specify here Protestant Christianity.
Apostolic Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) exist among a mere 3 Communions which make up about 1.7 billion of the worlds 2.4 billion Christians. Catholic and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Christians all agree on all the essentials of Christianity, we simply differ on one key aspect of Ecclesiology, namely the place of the Pope in the Church. And of those 1.7 billion Apostolic Christians, 1.2+ billion belong to one single Church - the Catholic Church.
To say simply Christians exist in tens of thousands of denominations is an unfair generalization. Protestant Christians exist in over 30,000 individual communities, coming from about 10,000+ different communions of individual communities, with over 1,000+ different “strains” of Protestantism (Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, etc.)
Apostolic Christians simply do not have so much disarray and disunity amongst ourselves - we are united in our doctrine for the most part.
Last edited:
S
Spyridon
Guest
Ummm…
@CatholicSpirit
Judging by the fact of how much emphasis you place on physical looks, I’d say you are years away from being spiritually and emotionally mature enough to consider marriage. You sound the way I did when I was 15 years old.
@CatholicSpirit
Judging by the fact of how much emphasis you place on physical looks, I’d say you are years away from being spiritually and emotionally mature enough to consider marriage. You sound the way I did when I was 15 years old.
Last edited:
E
EnglishTeacher
Guest
Being “sexually mature for a decade” is completely irrelevant (as of course you know) since a 15-year-old is obviously not going to be ready for marriage for at least 6 more years (give or take a bit, depending on the person). Plus, many girls reach sexual maturity younger than 15. Are they supposed to be looking for a husband in their teens simply because they physically matured at 12?
Last edited:
E
EnglishTeacher
Guest
Addressing the original topic–I sympathize, because it is often very difficult for practicing Catholics (both men and women) to find a spouse. But of course, it certainly not impossible either.
-Find a Theology on Tap group or a Catholic young adult group, even if you have to drive a ways. This is a great way to meet new friends who share your faith; and it is always possible that one of those friendships could turn into something more. (My husband and I met this way.)
-Don’t give up on online dating. Take a break from it if you need to, but you can meet Catholic women on good sites (like Catholic Match or Ave Maria Singles) whom you might never run into in real life.
-If you aren’t already doing this, develop some hobbies and/or new skills. It is both a good way to meet people and a way to become more interesting by expanding your interests.
-Be well-groomed (and you may very well be already). Nothing fancy, just basic hygiene plus a good quality haircut and maybe some flattering new clothes if necessary. If you aren’t sure, maybe either ask a female relative or platonic female friend (not someone you are considering dating), or just the salesperson at a clothing store. I know a lot of guys hate anything to do with clothes shopping, but it can really change your look for the better and be a worthwhile investment.
-It will happen; stay hopeful and enjoy life in the meantime.
-Find a Theology on Tap group or a Catholic young adult group, even if you have to drive a ways. This is a great way to meet new friends who share your faith; and it is always possible that one of those friendships could turn into something more. (My husband and I met this way.)
-Don’t give up on online dating. Take a break from it if you need to, but you can meet Catholic women on good sites (like Catholic Match or Ave Maria Singles) whom you might never run into in real life.
-If you aren’t already doing this, develop some hobbies and/or new skills. It is both a good way to meet people and a way to become more interesting by expanding your interests.
-Be well-groomed (and you may very well be already). Nothing fancy, just basic hygiene plus a good quality haircut and maybe some flattering new clothes if necessary. If you aren’t sure, maybe either ask a female relative or platonic female friend (not someone you are considering dating), or just the salesperson at a clothing store. I know a lot of guys hate anything to do with clothes shopping
, but it can really change your look for the better and be a worthwhile investment.-It will happen; stay hopeful and enjoy life in the meantime.
Last edited:
A
ATraveller
Guest
I’m surprised by that 75% figure. It’s always been a challenge to find good and more comprehensive data on non-American places for a variety of topics.
It runs contrary to this interesting study:
We know religious people tend to marry younger and yet divorce at a lower rate but I suspect it has to do with holding a different view of marriage and sexuality than the wider population, spending more time on strengthening marriages and more likely to have more support and easier access to it (e.g. counselling) if any problems arise in that marriage.
It runs contrary to this interesting study:
In the end, it’s depends on the person. It’s risky to treat people as a uniform mass and push them to marry ‘too early’ or ‘too late’.
We know religious people tend to marry younger and yet divorce at a lower rate but I suspect it has to do with holding a different view of marriage and sexuality than the wider population, spending more time on strengthening marriages and more likely to have more support and easier access to it (e.g. counselling) if any problems arise in that marriage.
Last edited:
T
TheLittleLady
Guest
Wow, what a real catch you are!
Mid 50’s, more attractive than I have ever been. I wear it well.
L
Lara
Guest
How many hours a week do you do housework such as cooking cleaning etc.? Then calculate how many you would do if you were single. Don’t forget to add on the things your husband does for you. That’s step one. Women aren’t relegated to doing these things so much as it is necessary to keep living. If they felt strongly that they didn’t like it, you’d find many young, single women hiring cleaning ladies and cooks to help out at home, especially since many such women have the disposable income. But you will find they will pay for trips, cars, makeup and many other things before they will hire a maid.
It is no more arrogant for me to present my beliefs as it is for you to present yours.
I didn’t include the suffragettes under feminism because the suffragettes would be horrified to learn that gay rights, abortion rights, transgender rights etc. are what feminists seek. I was thinking of feminism as around the 1970’s onwards. Long before then, I had all the opportunities to become President if I were American, drive, and go to university. Women played tennis well before Title IX.
It is no more arrogant for me to present my beliefs as it is for you to present yours.
I didn’t include the suffragettes under feminism because the suffragettes would be horrified to learn that gay rights, abortion rights, transgender rights etc. are what feminists seek. I was thinking of feminism as around the 1970’s onwards. Long before then, I had all the opportunities to become President if I were American, drive, and go to university. Women played tennis well before Title IX.
- Status