Where is Catholicism in the Bible?

[mercygate]

Edwin,

Wow, this is the by far the best explaination given here to Allens question.

I hope you do not mind but I am planning on saving it and rereading it and do some studying off of it.

Thank you!

Roger that, St. Lucy. Don’t you love it when non-Catholics like contarini/Edwin come in here and state the Catholic case better than we do ourselves? (But actually, on this thread, it’s the Christian case in general rather than the Catholic particulars that are being defended. Contarini always does a great job.

 

[Sir_Knight]

If you read the link

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church#Great_Schism

You’ll notice that it says that the “papacy sanctioned the inquisition” that means they gave there approval of it, which makes them just as guilty, and I already mentioned that on another post but you didn’t read it.

If you get a reputable book on the subject, you’ll see that the papacy officially condemned these actions and many bishops & priests lost their lives standing up against it.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The bible is the word of God. But specifically the words and gospel of Jesus.

The bible SPECIFICALLY says that there are things that Jesus did & said which are NOT contained within it’s pages yet Jesus tells us to do ALL that He commanded.

Therefore, it stands to reason that if you follow only what is found in the bible, you will NOT be doing all that Jesus commanded and therefore being disobedient to His teachings by failing to do ALL that He commanded.

 

[mercygate]

If you get a reputable book on the subject, you’ll see that the papacy officially condemned these actions and many bishops & priests lost their lives standing up against it.

Indeed, Sir. Not only did the papacy “sanction” the inquisition, we still have it. It is now called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Its disciplinary function (which does not include physical means) is one of the most valuable to the Church as it defends her against heresy and false teaching.

To “sanction the inquisition” is not the same thing as to sanction extreme torture – not that anybody considered torture to be unusual, unnecessary, or particularly cruel at that time. Nobody did. It was the m.o. of everyone in authority. The Inquisition, in fact, was strictly charged never to endanger life or limb in using physical means of “encouraging” confessions.

The whole point when studying the Inquisition is to look at the rest of the world in the same sweep. There is plenty of guilt to spread around on the Protestant side as well if you believe that aggressive persecution of heretics and physical means of containment are offensive to the mind of Christ.

 

[Ignatius]

Think about this: the word Bible is not mentioned in the Bible, does that make it a false doctrine? The word incarnation is not mentioned in the Bible, does that make it a false doctrine? The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, does that make it a false doctrine.

The Bible itself says that not everything is contained in the Bible.

 

[SoonerServant]

Contarini

“He didn’t mention John. This doesn’t affect your point, except that for someone who appeals to the Bible you are strangely careless in your use of it. More to the point, Paul also rebuked people who use the name of “Christ” as a slogan for their faction (people today who claim to be “just Christians”?). Paul was condemning division within the Church, and this is actually one of the strongest arguments for Catholicism. It’s the main reason I can’t get away from Catholicism entirely, no matter how many issues I may have with it. The Bible clearly tells us that we should be one Body, and Catholicism appears to have the only coherent account of how that is possible on earth.”

How are you sure thet one of the other splinters of the Catholic church aren’t the true church. Perhaps this was God protecting his church, by leading it away from the heretics. Can you prove that. Oh, and don’t even start with the whole,“The Catholic church has remained whole since the beginning.” because you guys have more splits than my hair.

 

[SoonerServant]

The Bible itself says that not everything is contained in the Bible.

Not everything, but those things essential to salvation and “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Useful, as in, one of it’s many uses. This is to be our yard stick.

 

[mercygate]

Contarini

“He didn’t mention John. This doesn’t affect your point, except that for someone who appeals to the Bible you are strangely careless in your use of it. More to the point, Paul also rebuked people who use the name of “Christ” as a slogan for their faction (people today who claim to be “just Christians”?). Paul was condemning division within the Church, and this is actually one of the strongest arguments for Catholicism. It’s the main reason I can’t get away from Catholicism entirely, no matter how many issues I may have with it. The Bible clearly tells us that we should be one Body, and Catholicism appears to have the only coherent account of how that is possible on earth.”

How are you sure thet one of the other splinters of the Catholic church aren’t the true church. Perhaps this was God protecting his church, by leading it away from the heretics. Can you prove that. Oh, and don’t even start with the whole,“The Catholic church has remained whole since the beginning.” because you guys have more splits than my hair.

Where Peter is, there is the Church. To be in communion with the bishop of Rome is to be Catholic. The thread is a triple strand of Scripture, doctrine, and history.

 

[Lampo]

Not everything, but those things essential to salvation and “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Useful, as in, one of it’s many uses. This is to be our yard stick.

Where is the list of essentials and non-essentials in the Bible? That passage says Scriputure is useful or profitable NOT sufficient.

 

[lak611]

The Bible itself says that not everything is contained in the Bible.

Very true. John 21:25 says, “There are, however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be written, not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written. Amen.”

 

[lak611]

He didn’t mention John.

See my post #376 for John 21:25 that not everything is in the Bible.

 

[heisenburg]

“All State issue Driving Manuals are athurized and are useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in Driving”

If the same logic that says “all scripture…” means it is completely sufficient, that woudl mean that the same logic would apply to this sentence. All i changed were the Nouns. No verbs or discripters were changed…

Now, on the surface, this seems ok… but there are many underlying things that are also required…

Without actualy Practicing driving a car, no one will ever be able to drive perfectly jsut by completely studying the manual
You still need a licience
You need someone to show you how to actually WORK the car…

Oh, by the way… you still NEED a car.

I dont see many people driving down the road on a state issue drivers manual.

Anyway point is, is it profitiable? Yes
Is it Useful? Yes
is it sufficient? No!

Same premise, differant nouns.

from a logic point of view it does not work to say that the idea works for one, btu not the other when the statement is exactly the same. The only differances are nouns.

In otherwords, without using interpretations and mental predispositons, arguing that the bible is sufficient based on that verse is a logical falicy and can be shown as such using deducible, messurable logic.

In Christ

 

[MGEISING]

Allan:

You really need to stop this insanity. Pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and for an open Heart and Mind … and then get cracking on studying … early Christian History.

The one thing I always worry about with Protestants is they have no clue of their Christian History. History is so important, to us human’s. Think about how important your Health History is … History of Wars, History of the trends in Economics and even the weather… History, History, History… It is paramount!

Protestants just don’t get into that. I once asked my MIL, who is a fundamental Baptist, where she thought the Bible came from … she hemmed and hawed and when I told her - history would prove the Catholic Church voted and complied the Holy Writings of the Holy Prophets, etc. She almost had a heart attack.

When I told her that The Mass was given to us by Our Lord and Savior at His Last Supper … she walked away… Jesus was Jewish … he did all the Jewish Customs and Traditions that Jewish Men did and still do … Jews celebrate the Passover Ever Year … in anticipation of the Messiah… Catholic’s celebrate the Last Supper at Every Mass … but our Messiah has come … Did you know that Jews in the Old Testament not only had to wipe the blood of the lamb that was sacrificed on their door posts, but they HAD to Eat that Lamb too … that was just as important … And it couldn’t be a lamb with broken bones… read the stories in the New Testament on Jesus Crucifixion and keep the last sentence in mind! Well, we Catholic’s Eat the Lamb of God, because Jesus commanded us to; John 6 is very powerful … Jesus is the Messiah who the Jewish People are waiting for … He was one of them and they just didn’t know it.

Allan, please, this is deep, I know … but your faith can’t encompass just simple beliefs … Your salvation is more important than that … isn’t it? The gift of salvation is not as easy as the Protestant’s profess … that isn’t what our Lord and Savior taught …

13 “Go in through the narrow gate, because the gate to hell is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel it. 14 But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it. -Matthew7:13-14

Doesn’t that speak volumes???

You made the first step of coming to this forum. Perhaps it was really not to learn but to insult or get people angry … this type of ‘evangelization’ doesn’t work. It really doesn’t Allan …

My in-laws have told me I am going to hell for the twenty-two years that I have been married to their wonderful son … who I love with my whole heart … and who has walked away from his Baptist upbringing — because he sees that he has been taught by his “Pastors” lies about what the Catholic Faith Teaches. He isn’t Catholic yet, but I truly believe in God’s time, he will be, if it is our Lord’s will. He comes to Mass with us and even on Holy Days … He once told me that if his parents wanted to have a contest on the Bible, I would beat them hands down. I am sure I would, but I study it all the time.

My Father gave me that passion … because when he was dying … of Cancer … it was during the Christmas — I was taking him to his Chemo appointment and I was furious that the hospital was playing Christmas Music. He looked at me… with his most beautiful blue eyes, with tears, and said — where is your faith. This time of year isn’t about me or you … it is about our Lord and Savior’s Birth … because he came and suffered and died so we would be with him always. This is just a temporary state ….

I knew… that I had to learn more about my faith … because when the Lord is ready to take me, I wanted to have the same conviction that my Dad had … and it has been nine years since we buried him (Christmas Eve) … the best Father in the world (other than my husband) … and I wouldn’t trade my faith for anything in the world. But Allan, faith is a Gift … and I truly believe on that very sad day for me with my dad … God gave me the gift of faith and encouraged me to find out more about the faith that was passed down to me … and I thank God that he did.

Allan, you have to be informed … if you want to make accusations about the Catholic Faith … I know that we aren’t suppose to ask ages, but by your postings you seem very young. Please Allan, go to our Lord and Savior in prayer … I know how wonderful Protestant’s pray … get on your knees and ask guidance from the Spirit to help you to understand. Not to be Catholic per se, but to help you discern where you need to be.

Peace Allan and My Prayers will be with you,

Your Friend, Mgeising!!!

 

[Norseman82]

A hockey helmet makes a hockey player fully equipped, but does that mean that all he needs to wear on the ice is a helmet? No skates, no pads…NO CUP??? Again I repeat, NO CUP??? (If anyone thinks that it does, next time you’re up in Chitown I’ll find some open ice time to test that theory out).

Besides, what scripture was out there when Paul wrote to Timothy? The OT. So, then, we should only rely on the OT?

 

[teachccd]

I don’t see it anywhere. And if it’s not in the bible, its false doctrine… I challenge Catholics to think about why they believe what they believe and try to back it up with the King James Version of the Bible. Everything else is just false doctrine or heresy.

Allan, this is my first post in this thread. WOW!! There’s more covered here than I’ve seen in a while and apologetics is one of the staples of my faith. Hopefully if you are well intent on finding the truth about what Catholicism teaches you’ve picked up a few pointers. This thread could and hopefully does go on with all of its valuable information and this will be my only post. I pray that looking above at parts of your original post you’ve come to a better understanding of Scripture and it’s role in God’s revelation.I’ve talked with many “bible-only” Christians and after a few conversations they at least open up to the possibility that God is bigger than the confines of a book. Just a last question from me: As Jesus was ascending into heaven did He toss down the New Testament to His disciples down below? If your answer is no, then the rest becomes obvious. God Bless you Allan. Pray for an open heart and you might truly be amazed at what could happen…

 

[lak611]

I don’t see it anywhere. And if it’s not in the bible, its false doctrine. In the Bible, there is no mention of Pope, Bishop, or Mass, or most of things that Catholics talk about. Who was greater? Jesus or Peter. Who’s greater Jesus or the Pope? Who’s greater Jesus or Mary? Even Paul said for people to stop following Peter, Paul, or John, but to follow Jesus. Jesus didn’t say anything about Peter being the foundation of the Catholic Church, but the rock of God’s Church. I challenge Catholics to think about why they believe what they believe and try to back it up with the King James Version of the Bible. Everything else is just false doctrine or heresy.

Allan, here is something from the KJV. From John 21:25, " And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." Not everything is in the Bible. The apostle John says so.

 

[Allan1972]

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Pretty sure we are the only ones who have throughout the ages adhered to:

48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

The scripture is a not a commandment to always hail her. Just because one person hailed Mary doesn’t mean everyone should from hereafter. The bible did say that she would be called blessed but it wasn’t a commandment. it was a prophecy.

This is similar to Pentacostals who think they have to speak in tounges and prophesy all of the time, because of the event in acts on pentacost. So as far as being a oneness pentacost as someone thought, this shows I"m not. I don’t know what made them think that to begin with.

From whay I’ve seen on television, a hail mary is a hand motion that is repeated that is in the design of a cross. Mary was not crucified on the cross. Jesus was.

 

[Allan1972]

First today there is such a thing as the “Novus Ordo Mass” in that Mass the language used is the native tongue of the people. Which means if you speak English you can go to a Mass in English, if you speak Spanish you then can go to a Mass in Spanish etc. Then we have the “Traditional” Mass, which is a Mass said in Latin.

Honestly, I go to a Novus Ordo Mass in English, however if I travel and go to places where English is the NOT the native language then I try to find a “Traditional” Mass. The Traditional Mass is said in Latin. This is because I know what is going to be said and what to say in response. The “only” Latin the avg. lay Catholic needed to know is the Latin phrases that are said during Mass. The teachers/parents would teach the kids. What to say and what it meant.

How do you know English? How do you know what this word means or that word means? How do you learn English? How do babies in France learn French? How do babies in Germany lean German? They were taught! The same is true with Latin. You may not know any now, but it can be taught and you can learn. I learned the stuff for the Mass at home, however I learned more Latin at my public high school then at home. I took Latin for my Language class.

The point of using Latin in the Mass was so that it would be universal no matter where the Catholic went. An American could go China and go to Mass and still know what was being said. A German could go to American and go to Mass and still know what was being said…. this was because the language used was the same as at home “Latin”.

Sadly, that is not really the case now, seeing everyone uses his or her own native tongue. However, sometimes one is lucky to find a “traditional Mass”.

That to me is one of the beauties of the Catholicism. I can go to Mass anywhere in the world and it will be the same as if I was home. (Although it’s getting harder and harder for that to be true today)

Now I want to point out some quotes from you that seem to a conflict. First you write:

Then you write:

The first statement is all you need is the Bible and nothing more then the Bible.
The Second statement is that you need the Bible, but you need more then just the Bible. You need the Bible and a “valid” interpretation.

So which is? Is it the Bible and the Bible only?
Of is it the Bible and a valid interpretation?

Whose interpretation? What makes an interpretation valid? What happens if person A said it means this and person B said it means this? Who is right? Is it person A? Is it person B? How do you know?

Interpretation is not really that hard if you’ve studied the whole word. It is common sense. The Holy Spirit helps you interpret it also, since it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

From whay I’ve seen on television, a hail mary is a hand motion that is repeated that is in the design of a cross. Mary was not crucified on the cross. Jesus was.

You have been misinformed.

 

[Allan1972]

So, what you’re saying is that your Holy Spirit can beat up our Holy Spirit?

That’s what it comes down to. You have said that you do not believe in the Trinity. So, as you say, you are not Protestant. Protestants believe in the Holy Trinity and that Mary is the Mother of God. In fact, belief in the Trinity is essential for claiming the name of Christian.

Please take a few days to re-think your understanding of the Holy Trinity (not that any of us can truly understand it!). A clearer understanding of this core doctrine will help you in your walk with Christ. For example, you rejected the Communion of Saints even though someone pointed it out in Revelation because you “don’t understand Revelation.” There is a rational disconnect in the idea that your personal acceptance of something makes it true or untrue, necessary or unnecessary.

You say that it is unimportant to reveal to us your denomination, and that being a Christian is “enough.” But as the prominent Evangelical, Hank Hanegraaf, contends: There are no lone ranger Christians. Being part of a congregation is essential to the Christian witness.

I hope you hang around here. And I hope we can craft our responses to your questions with clarity and charity so that we shed light and grace in the fellowship of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I didn’t say I don’t believe in the Trinity, I just don’t use that word. I believe in the exsistance of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, if that’s what you mean.

As far as a personal acceptance of anything, you are wrong. Since I started this thread I’ve learned a couple ofthings that I didn’t know before such as the fact that the bible does mention bishop, which I didn’t know.

“38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.” Mark 9:38

Here is what Jesus had to say about lone ranger Christians, he had no peoblem with other people that didn’t hang around him but believed in him.