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Allan1972
Guest
Was Moses or Isaiah part of the council?
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Allan1972
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Nowhere, I never claimed that the bible said those things. There is nothing holy, righteous, or spiritual about translating?Allan,
I have some questions for you, and they must be answered by Scripture alone:
Using Scripture alone, please tell me:
By accepting the 27-book canon of the NT, you are implicitly accepting the authority of the Catholic Church that determined the canon.
- Where it says that the number of books in the New Testament is officially 27.
- Where does it say what books belong in the NT?
- Where does it say what versions of the books belong in the NT? For example: There was a version of Matthew’s Gospel that had 8 chapters worth of text. Another with 18. A third with 28. Which one is the correct one, using Scripture alone?
- Where does it say which TRANSLATION of the books in the NT is the correct one?
Any sinner could translate the Bible. All he would have to do is find a reference of some sort that shows the translation of every word from Hebrew to Latin or Hebrew to English or whatever language it is, In fact, I could do one my self. There are professional translators who translate things word for word all of the time.
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jmcrae
Guest
No. Isaiah and Moses didn’t even live at the same time, and they were both dead by the time the New Testament was written.Was Moses or Isaiah part of the council?
Members of the Councils where they figured out the table of contents of the Bible included St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, and others like them. St. Jerome didn’t vote because he was only a priest; not a Bishop, but I think I read somewhere that he was present at it.
These meetings took place during the very late 300s. By 405 AD, St. Jerome had already completed translating the Old Testament, and had begun working on the New Testament. After that, the first copies began to be made, and distributed to the Churches throughout Europe and the Near East, including North Africa. Examples of copies made in Ireland were the Book of Kells and the Lindesfarne Gospels.
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Gamera
Guest
They did. The New Testament lists three separate ranks of clergy: episcopoi (bishops), 1 Tim 5:19-22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5; presbuteroi (priests), 1 Tim 5:17; James 5:14-15, and diakonoi (deacons), Acts 6:1-6.…Why didn’t any of the disciples or Christians iin the new testament call themselves priests?
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Brendan
Guest
They did, or at least Peter did.But it doesn’t say anything about a hand motion.
Why didn’t any of the disciples or Christians iin the new testament call themselves priests?
1 Peter 5:1
The presbyters who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow presbyter and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Church Councils are part of the New Covenant, which Jesus Christ established 2,000 yrs ago.Was Moses or Isaiah part of the council?
Moses and Isaiah are part of the Old Covenant.
The Church had the authority given to Her by Jesus when Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 16:18. .
Even Jesus said, that if there is a disagreement amongst you. Take it to the Church. He didn’t say take it to the Bible.
In 1 Tim 3:15, Paul said, the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth…
The doctrine of the Trinity was defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. It wasn’t the Bible that defined the Trinity.
The Council of Rome (382 A.D compiled a list of both OT (both Hebrew and the Septuagint) and added the 27 NT text into the Bible. This list was also in the Council of Hippo (392 AD), and Council of Carthage in 396 A.D).
The Jews who rejected Jesus, rejected the Septuagint in the Council of Jamnia in 90 A.D. Before that, they had not closed their canon of Scripture and had used both the Septugaint and Hebrew Text.
2/3 of the NT quote the Septuguint translations of the OT.
((source geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Rick/Septuagint/spindex.htm ))
In the Reformation, the Martin Luther remove the the Septuagint in the Bible.
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jmcrae
Guest
Then how do you know that it’s true? Since there is nothing true except for what’s in the Bible.Nowhere, I never claimed that the bible said those things.
First, he has to know what a Bible is.There is nothing holy, righteous, or spiritual about translating? Any sinner could translate the Bible.
Wow! Have you ever actually done any translating? I don’t think you really know what’s all involved. (By the way, he’s referring to the Greek translation of Matthew from the original Aramaic, and there were several forgeries. Not to a modern person making a translation from existing documents.)All he would have to do is find a reference of some sort that shows the translation of every word from Hebrew to Latin or Hebrew to English or whatever language it is, In fact, I could do one my self.
The grammar and syntax are different for each language. If you were to translate from Greek into English word for word, it would become incomprehensible.There are professional translators who translate things word for word all of the time.
Hebrew contains no vowels, spaces, or punctuation. Someone not fluent in Hebrew would be unable to discern where one word ends and where the next begins. (Imagine 46 scrolls, each of them several feet long, entirely covered in “instant messaging” language, with no spaces or punctuation. Next, imagine that it’s in Hebrew, not English.)
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Norseman82
Guest
I never said that and you know it. Now please answer the questions.souds like you are suggesting that Jesus waisted his time by coming to this world since the gospels shouldn’t have been written.
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
lets look up worship in the websters dictionarySince catholics insist on categorizing everything and having a name for everything then call me a non-denominational. Catholics have been calling people heretics for 2000 years but that is what they are. A few changes. Everything from blashemy by calling themselves Father. Putting Mary above God. And I don’t care what they say, they do worship her.
worship
1 chiefly British : a person of importance – used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
Now Allan1972 when we worship God we do by definition number 2, when we attend mass we worship by definition number 3 and when we “worship” Mary or Saints we do so in reference only to definition number 4
Please refer to my thread Call no man father in the non catholic section for the catholic response to your accusation, and for now a question, the bible calls both rabbis and preist “father” in the bible, why do you not allow this if it is in the bible.
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Allan1972
Guest
The lexicon says presbuteroi means elder.They did. The New Testament lists three separate ranks of clergy: episcopoi (bishops), 1 Tim 5:19-22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5; presbuteroi (priests), 1 Tim 5:17; James 5:14-15, and diakonoi (deacons), Acts 6:1-6.
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Now this is just rediculous AllanJust because someone doesn’t know everything there is to know doesn’t mean they are ignorant. Do you know everything? Obviously you don’t know everything or you wouldn’t be a Catholic.
and you know it
shamefull
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word “presbuteros”, which appears 67 times in the New Testament. Presbuteros had the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (Acts 14:23; 20:17; 1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James. 5:14–15), these the same responsibilities that Catholic Priests have preformed down through the centuries, to this very Day. It should also be noted that In The Greek text of the New Testament, there is also clear link between the word “presbuteros” (some time translated ‘elders’) and the Jewish priesthood (e.g. Mt. 21:23; 26:47).The lexicon says presbuteroi means elder.
We should remember that simply because most English editions of the New Testament, translate the Greek word “presbuteros” as “Elder” or “presbyter”, does not negate the fact that it is the origin of the word Priest. Nor does it change the fact, that the Catholic Priesthood, can be clearly traced out in the sacred texts New Testament.
“And when they had ordained to them presbyters (Greek “presbuteros”) in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.” [Acts 14:23]
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
but what about when there is not a hebrew or arabic word for the english word we know?Nowhere, I never claimed that the bible said those things. There is nothing holy, righteous, or spiritual about translating?
Any sinner could translate the Bible. All he would have to do is find a reference of some sort that shows the translation of every word from Hebrew to Latin or Hebrew to English or whatever language it is, In fact, I could do one my self. There are professional translators who translate things word for word all of the time.
example
Some beleive Mary, after the birth of Jesus had more children, because they quote in the bible that Jesus had “brothers”
but if you were to study the word cousin there is not semetic word for cousin so when it was replaced with the word brothermeaning sometimes brother and sometimes cousin.
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Allan1972
Guest
That still does not address the issue. The point is what is so spiritual or holy about translating. Also, you are doing what atheists do when discussing anything. They resort to trying to insult people and question their intelligence, which is just an attempt to anger someone. It doesn’t anger me because I don’t care what you think of me personally. See if you can learn to talk to someone without trying to insult them., you might someday be able to lead someone into salvation. It is especialy a bad representation of a Christian to insult people, sense this is a discussion of Christianity and Christians dont try to insult people.Then how do you know that it’s true? Since there is nothing true except for what’s in the Bible.
First, he has to know what a Bible is.
Wow! Have you ever actually done any translating? I don’t think you really know what’s all involved. (By the way, he’s referring to the Greek translation of Matthew from the original Aramaic, and there were several forgeries. Not to a modern person making a translation from existing documents.)
The grammar and syntax are different for each language. If you were to translate from Greek into English word for word, it would become incomprehensible.
Hebrew contains no vowels, spaces, or punctuation. Someone not fluent in Hebrew would be unable to discern where one word ends and where the next begins. (Imagine 46 scrolls, each of them several feet long, entirely covered in “instant messaging” language, with no spaces or punctuation. Next, imagine that it’s in Hebrew, not English.)
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Allan 1972 the problem with your sola scriptura theology, it refuses the authority of all other sources. Since these you specifically deny the authority of the Church’s Sacred Tradition, you see the guardians of Sacred Tradition as modern-day Pharisees and Scribes. Two passages are used to implicitly associate Roman Catholic leaders with the people who opposed Jesus Christ.
Allan 1972 the truth is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are two rivers which flow from the same source, the source of Truth who is God alone. Both are treasured, preserved, and guarded as One by the Body of Christ, for they are One in God, who is One.
Mt 15:2-9 “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
Mk 7:4-13 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions which they observe, the washing of cups and pots and vessels of bronze.) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ 8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” 9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God) 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God through your tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.”
A careful reading of both passages shows Jesus attacking tradition which breaks covenant ties and the family bond. Human tradition uses God as an excuse to dispense with covenantal duties, but the divine tradition of Scripture honors and nourishes covenantal duties, it does not destroy them. **An ironical sidenote: in the March/April 1997 edition of Envoy, pp. 44-45, Mark Shea points out that Mark 7:6-8, the verses most often used against Sacred Tradition, show Christ quoting a version of Is 29:13 found only in the Greek, i.e., the Septuagint version of Isaiah - the Hebrew Scripture version of Isaiah used by sola scriptura Christians does not contain the verse.
**
Allan 1972 why do you use the Hebrew Scripture of version of Isaiah and not the greek from which Christ quotes from, meaning your king James version is from the hebrew text of Isaiah and not the greek?
Deut 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you; your** elders**, and they will tell you.
Psalm 44:1 We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what deeds thou didst perform in their days, in the days of old…
Psalm 78:2-3 I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us.
**Are you worshipping as the first disciples worshipped?
Do you believe what they believed?
How do you know? Scripture relates only the first 50 years of discipleship.
Have you read the works of the early disciples of the Church in order to find out what they believed?
**
Allan 1972 the truth is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are two rivers which flow from the same source, the source of Truth who is God alone. Both are treasured, preserved, and guarded as One by the Body of Christ, for they are One in God, who is One.
Mt 15:2-9 “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
Mk 7:4-13 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions which they observe, the washing of cups and pots and vessels of bronze.) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ 8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” 9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God) 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God through your tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.”
A careful reading of both passages shows Jesus attacking tradition which breaks covenant ties and the family bond. Human tradition uses God as an excuse to dispense with covenantal duties, but the divine tradition of Scripture honors and nourishes covenantal duties, it does not destroy them. **An ironical sidenote: in the March/April 1997 edition of Envoy, pp. 44-45, Mark Shea points out that Mark 7:6-8, the verses most often used against Sacred Tradition, show Christ quoting a version of Is 29:13 found only in the Greek, i.e., the Septuagint version of Isaiah - the Hebrew Scripture version of Isaiah used by sola scriptura Christians does not contain the verse.
**
Allan 1972 why do you use the Hebrew Scripture of version of Isaiah and not the greek from which Christ quotes from, meaning your king James version is from the hebrew text of Isaiah and not the greek?
Deut 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you; your** elders**, and they will tell you.
Psalm 44:1 We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what deeds thou didst perform in their days, in the days of old…
Psalm 78:2-3 I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us.
**Are you worshipping as the first disciples worshipped?
Do you believe what they believed?
How do you know? Scripture relates only the first 50 years of discipleship.
Have you read the works of the early disciples of the Church in order to find out what they believed?
**
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Libertas
Guest
Uhm, because maybe if you translate it wrong you lose the original meaning?That still does not address the issue. The point is what is so spiritual or holy about translating.
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
yet you have insulted us when you said earlier that if we knew anything, we wouldnt be Catholic.That still does not address the issue. The point is what is so spiritual or holy about translating. Also, you are doing what atheists do when discussing anything. They resort to trying to insult people and question their intelligence, which is just an attempt to anger someone. It doesn’t anger me because I don’t care what you think of me personally. See if you can learn to talk to someone without trying to insult them., you might someday be able to lead someone into salvation. It is especialy a bad representation of a Christian to insult people, sense this is a discussion of Christianity and Christians dont try to insult people.
We love God, we love Jesus and we love His Church, Allan and we try to love even our enemy because what good is it to just love those who love you?
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Allan1972
Guest
Do all Catholics believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity? which is she remained a virgin even after having other children
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Gamera
Guest
Yes, Mary’s perpetual virginity is a required Catholic belief, and no, Mary did not have any other children. New Testament references to “brothers” of Jesus refer to Jesus’ cousins.Do all Catholics believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity? which is she remained a virgin even after having other children
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Yes all Catholics believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity?Do all Catholics believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity? which is she remained a virgin even after having other children
**Can you show me in the bible where Mary had other children after Jesus?
**
I would like to see this
again the bible says jesus had brothers and sisters
but again there is not a word for cousin in hebrew nor arabic
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