Where is Catholicism in the Bible?

[Allan1972]

To deny Mary as the Mother of God is to be guilty of old heresy called Nectorianism. Nestorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus exists as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This heresy deny the title, Mother of God.

Nestorianism originated in the Church in the 5th century out of an attempt to rationally explain and understand the incarnation of the divine Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as the man Jesus Christ. Nestorianism taught that the human and divine essences of Christ are separate and that there are two persons, the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, which dwelt in the man. In consequence, Nestorians rejected such terminology as “God suffered” or “God was crucified”, because the humanity of Jesus Christ which suffered is separate from his divinity. Likewise, they rejected the term Theotokos (Giver of birth to God/Mother of God) as a title of the Virgin Mary, suggesting instead the title Christotokos (Giver of birth to Christ/Mother of Christ), because in their opinion Mary gave birth to only the human person of Jesus and not the divine.

Nectorianism was condemned as a heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D.

I never said anything about Jesus being two persons.
I don’t deny her as being the mother of Jesus. But also, I’m not concerned with what the Catholic Church thinks is heresy, only God. I was saved when I was a child. As soon as I learned about Catholicism, I knew how decieved they were. And I was just a child. I didn’t even know that much about the bible yet, but I had the Holy Spirit to guide me. The one thing that lets me know how decieved Catholics are is the Haiil Mary, I forgot all about that until I went to a Catholic website and read about it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

In the OT, Jewish Kings had mothers as their Queens. Jesus is part of that tradition. So he likewise, made Mary his Queen Mother.where is the scripture for this?

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all. IT doesn’t say anything about mary in this scripture you’re just adding that

Yes, but I like to note Revelation 12 the woman clothed with the sun is Mary.

hat might be posible, ok but you’re not being completely honest. you added somethings to these scripures that aren’t there.

No I am not adding anything about this. It’s a ancient Christian belief. Jesus is part of the Davidic Kingdom and he is the King of this Kingdom. Like the OT, Jewish Kings have their Mothers as Queen. Jesus came to fulfilled the OT and he did so by his death and resurrection.

she didn’t bring eternal life to the world, God did.

For God so loved the world that he sent his only Son that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life

No, she didn’t but she gave birth to the Word, the Word made flesh, who is Jesus. Jesus gave us eternal life. Um, where did you get the idea that she gave us eternal life? The saints given a crown of life is given to them by God.

 

[Allan1972]

Who gave you the power to condemn our priests? You likewise twist your own Scripture.

2 Peter 15-16 *And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist *to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

The Scribes and Pharisees negate God. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible and added the 27 NT text into the canon of Scripture.

Tell me, my friend. Where is a list of books that is consider inspired in the Bible?

The holy spirit gives me the power.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

I don’t see it anywhere. And if it’s not in the bible, its false doctrine. In the Bible, there is no mention of Pope, Bishop, or Mass, or most of things that Catholics talk about. Who was greater? Jesus or Peter. Who’s greater Jesus or the Pope? Who’s greater Jesus or Mary? Even Paul said for people to stop following Peter, Paul, or John, but to follow Jesus. Jesus didn’t say anything about Peter being the foundation of the Catholic Church, but the rock of God’s Church. I challenge Catholics to think about why they believe what they believe and try to back it up with the King James Version of the Bible. Everything else is just false doctrine or heresy.

This becomes difficult when one realizes that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible…

 

[Mannyfit75]

I never said anything about Jesus being two persons.
I don’t deny her as being the mother of Jesus. But also, I’m not concerned with what the Catholic Church thinks is heresy, only God. I was saved when I was a child. As soon as I learned about Catholicism, I knew how decieved they were. And I was just a child. I didn’t even know that much about the bible yet, but I had the Holy Spirit to guide me. The one thing that lets me know how decieved Catholics are is the Haiil Mary, I forgot all about that until I went to a Catholic website and read about it.

We Catholics do believe she is the Mother of Jesus, and we also believed that Jesus is God. The Word made flesh. It is right for us to call Mary, Mother of God because she is the Mother of God, the Second Person of Trinity (Jesus). The problem with merely calling Mary the Mother of Christ, is to negate, Jesus Christ divinity. Let me quote John Cassian, who can explain it much further.

“And so you say, O heretic, whoever you may be, who deny that God was born of the Virgin, that Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ ought not to be called Theotocos, i.e., Mother of God, but Christotocos, i.e., only the Mother of Christ, not of God. For no one, you say, brings forth what is anterior in time. And of this utterly foolish argument whereby you think that the birth of God can be understood by carnal minds, and fancy that the mystery of His Majesty can be accounted for by human reasoning, we will, if God permits, say something later on. In the meanwhile we will now prove by Divine testimonies that Christ is God, and that Mary is the Mother of God.” John Cassian, The Incarnation of Christ, II:2 (A.D. 430).

 

[Allan1972]

Hi Alan,

This is a very important question that goes to the heart of our differences. Would you please let us know where in the Bible it says that it has to say so in the Bible? I believe that until this is cleared up we will get nowhere. (If I missed your answer, I apologize; I do realize that some posts have been deleted previously).

I also want to address the notion of Mary being the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God. If Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God, then the mathematical principle of transitivity logically means that Mary is the mother of God. To say otherwisde logically means that either Mary is not Jesus’ mother or Jesus is not God (Arian heresy), or that Jesus is a spiritual schizophrenic (which I believe is the basis of the Nestorian heresy).

I’ve already said it. I’ll say it again. She was the mother of the Son of God(Father).

Here is how I understand the Bible. It starts with. In the Begining and it ends with the Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Nicene]

I’ve already said it. I’ll say it again. She was the mother of the Son of God(Father).

The trinitarian belief is:

God the Father
God the Son, and
God the Holy Spirit

You do believe in the trinity do you not?

Here is how I understand the Bible. It starts with. In the Begining and it ends with the Jesus and the apostles.

Actually it ends with Jesus second coming (Perousia, not rapture; in the evangelical sense anyway) and the establishment of a new heaven and a new earth.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Mannyfit75]

The trinitarian belief is:

God the Father
God the Son, and
God the Holy Spirit

You do believe in the trinity do you not?

Actually it ends with Jesus second coming (Perousia, not rapture; in the evangelical sense anyway) and the establishment of a new heaven and a new earth.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

I second that, Jesus had not yet return, so the Scripture is not fulfilled yet until he comes in Glory.

 

[Allan1972]

Allan1972;1821254:

Jesus is not God the Son. Write it right. He is the
Son of God
/QUOTE]

So then that means you don’t believe Jesus is divine. Belief in the divinity of Jesus is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in order to be a Christian.

Jesus said he was the Son of God. I didn’t.

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

John 10:34

 

[Allan1972]

So fundamentalists aren’t in a spiritual warfare? It is throughout the gospel. Paul makes explicit reference to it:

1 Cor 10:3: For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war,
4: for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Maybe I was a little extreme for calling you (Edited by Moderator) ok. I’m sorry.

 

[zian]

The holy spirit gives me the power.

when Mannyfit75 ended with

Mannyfit75:

Tell me, my friend. Where is a list of books that is consider inspired in the Bible?

Well Allan, I’m trying to understand what you are saying. Several posters have asked Manny’s question about where in the Bible is to be found the list of inspired books.

You stated early on that it was only true if it was in the Bible.

Now you are saying you are relying on the Holy Spirit.

So what is it? Is it the Bible only?
Or the Spirit?
Or the Bible and the Spirit?

And I think it would only be fair to respond to Manny’s (and the other poster’s) question about the list of inspired books.

 

[Nicene]

Maybe I was a little extreme for calling you (Edited by Moderator) ok. I’m sorry.

It wasn’t me. It was Church Militant. But I’ll accept on his behalf if he doesn’t mind.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Allan1972]

This becomes difficult when one realizes that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible…

The bible was written by people like moses the prophets, matthew, mar,k, luke, etc who were inspired by the holy spirit. There is a big differnce in writing and translating. Translating is all they did.

 

[lak611]

The bible was written by people like moses the prophets, matthew, mar,k, luke, etc who were inspired by the holy spirit. There is a big differnce in writing and translating. Translating is all they did.

The Church didn’t just translate. The Church held Councils to actually pick which books belonged in the Bible. There were all kinds of other books about Jesus (for instance the so-called “Gospel of Thomas”) that were determined by the Church to be uninspired. Without the Church, you would never have the Bible that you do today.

 

[Allan1972]

The trinitarian belief is:

God the Father
God the Son, and
God the Holy Spirit

You do believe in the trinity do you not?

Actually it ends with Jesus second coming (Perousia, not rapture; in the evangelical sense anyway) and the establishment of a new heaven and a new earth.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

You are right and Jesus talked about his send coming and its mentioned in Revelation. I should of just said like i thought about saying was genesis to revelation. The beggining and the end.

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
revelations 21:6

 

[Allan1972]

when Mannyfit75 ended with
Well Allan, I’m trying to understand what you are saying. Several posters have asked Manny’s question about where in the Bible is to be found the list of inspired books.

You stated early on that it was only true if it was in the Bible.

Now you are saying you are relying on the Holy Spirit.

So what is it? Is it the Bible only?
Or the Spirit?
Or the Bible and the Spirit?

And I think it would only be fair to respond to Manny’s (and the other poster’s) question about the list of inspired books.

Yes, the word and the holy spirit. It doesn’t say what books are or aren’t.

 

[Allan1972]

The Church didn’t just translate. The Church held Councils to actually pick which books belonged in the Bible. There were all kinds of other books about Jesus (for instance the so-called “Gospel of Thomas”) that were determined by the Church to be uninspired. Without the Church, you would never have the Bible that you do today.

You are right, except the church of yesterday is not the church of today. They didn’t have a hail mary then, but they do now, as well as many other things.

 

[Lepanto]

No where in the bible is pizza mentioned. Regardless, I like pizza.

 

[Redbandito]

You are right, except the church of yesterday is not the church of today. They didn’t have a hail mary then, but they do now, as well as many other things.

Allan, this is true! The Hail Mary is a prayer that was developed to help our devotion to Christ grow. Yet, it is not a mandatory devotion for Catholics. Of course it is strongly recommended for to “know Mary, is to know Jesus,” and to have “no Mary, is to have no Jesus.” As Mary said at the wedding feast as Cana, “Do whatever he tells you.” This is what our Mother Mary tells us as well. Yet, the development of new prayers does not disprove that it is the same Church. New prayers will naturally stem from deeper devotion to and understanding of the revealed Word of God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Allan,

Let me give some basic Scripture 101.

The King James Bible you have was translated from the Latin Bible called Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate was translated by St. Jerome in 382 A.D. Jerome got his translation from both the Hebrew Text (the Masoretic Text), and the Septuagint, the Greek Translation of the OT written in 6th to 1st B.C by Hellenistic Jews in Alexandria, Egypt.

During the early Christ, there were other Gospels used. You probably heard of them, the Gnostic Gospel, like the Gospel of Thomas, Acts of Peter, etc. Those books didn’t make it into the canon of Scripture in 382 A.D when the Council of Rome discuss which Books should be in the Bible.

Here is a short info on the timeline when Scripture was formed:

davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm