Where Is Heaven and Hell? Is It In Our Universe?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dr.newsman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
BlackFriar said:
40.png
Vico:
In later times the Jewish developed seven heavens ideas.
Click to expand...
Exactly so, fully harmonising with Greek cosmology.
The 7 heavens correspond to each of the 7 planets scientifically visible to the naked eye indicating that there must be rotating, around the earth, concentric clear crystalline ethereal spheres on which the planet was fixed.

The Babylonians thought there were only three heavens, and these three planets were on the same sphere but skating past each other rather than being fixed.
Click to expand...
Not the Jewish version listed in the Talmud, from 2 Enoch.

"There are seven heavens one above the other:
  • (1) Velon [Latin, velum, “curtain”], which is rolled up and down to enable the sun to go in and out; according to Isa. xl. 22, ‘He stretched out the heavens as a curtain’;
  • (2) Raḳi’a, the place where the sun, moon, and stars are fixed (Gen. i. 17];
  • (3) Sheḥakim, in which are the millstones to grind [shaḥak] manna for the righteous (Ps. lxxviii. 23; comp. Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7];
  • (4) Zebul, the upper Jerusalem, with its Temple, in which Michael offers the sacrifice at the altar [Isa. lxiii. 15; I Kings, viii. 13];
  • (5) Ma’on. in which dwell the classes of ministering angels who sing by night and are silent by day, for the honor of Israel who serve the Lord in daytime [Deut. xxvi. 15, Ps. xlii. 9];
  • (6) Makon, in which are the treasuries of snow and hail, the chambers of dew, rain, and mist behind doors of fire [1 Kings, vii. 30; Deut. xxviii. 12];
  • (7) 'Arabot, where justice and righteousness, the treasures of life and of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the dew of resurrection are to be found. There are the ofanim, the seraphim, and the ḥayyot of holiness, the ministering angels and the throne of glory; and over them is enthroned the great King"
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1521-angelology#anchor20
 
Last edited:
Vico said:
Not the Jewish version listed in the Talmud, from 2 Enoch.
Click to expand...
By “not” you deny the following?
I doubt it is intrinsically so in all Jewish works as Greek thinking of the afterlife and souls penetrated Hebrew thinking and gave rise to eschatology and ascensions to heaven from earth…eg Book of Enoch?
Click to expand...
Yet your quote makes my point, this Jewish book is heavily penetrated by Greek thought (seven concentric heavens where Hebrew thought originally had only one).

Notice the 6th heaven is a typical depiction of the very old single Hebrew heaven (where there is a usually a window (in this case it seems to be doors of fire) to let the rain fall).

Notice the 7th heaven is the true (Empyrean) heaven where God dwells served by the highest order of the angels (seraphim) who are the creatures most like and close to God.

Also interesting is the belief that souls of the righteous survive death and are in the Emyprean heaven with God. This is new to Jewish thought and, without checking other local cosmologies (Egyption or Babylonian) also sounds like a strong Greek influence. The original Hebrew Cosmology did not believe I n life after death in heaven - earth and heaven were very separate in Old Bebrew thought as you noted earlier
 
Last edited:
Actually, I have done the same. I still got a bit bogged down in Paradiso. It would be nice to know all of Dante’s references to historical figures and events. That would require some homework on the readers part. I think everyone like the Inferno best. I will hopefully make my way back to all three again.
 
BlackFriar said:
40.png
Vico:
Not the Jewish version listed in the Talmud, from 2 Enoch.
Click to expand...
By “not” you deny the following?
I doubt it is intrinsically so in all Jewish works as Greek thinking of the afterlife and souls penetrated Hebrew thinking and gave rise to eschatology and ascensions to heaven from earth…eg Book of Enoch?
Click to expand...
Yet your quote makes my point, this Jewish book is heavily penetrated by Greek thought (seven concentric heavens where Hebrew thought originally had only one).

Notice the 6th heaven is a typical depiction of the very old single Hebrew heaven (where there is a usually a window (in this case it seems to be doors of fire) to let the rain fall).

Notice the 7th heaven is the true (Empyrean) heaven where God dwells served by the highest order of the angels (seraphim) who are the creatures most like and close to God.

Also interesting is the belief that souls of the righteous survive death and are in the Emyprean heaven with God. This is new to Jewish thought and, without checking other local cosmologies (Egyption or Babylonian) also sounds like a strong Greek influence. The original Hebrew Cosmology did not believe I n life after death in heaven - earth and heaven were very separate in Old Bebrew thought as you noted earlier
Click to expand...
No, referring to:
Black Friar:
fully harmonising with Greek cosmology.

The 7 heavens correspond to each of the 7 planets
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Agreed, Hellenistic Judaism when influenced by Greek cosmology is never going to become pure Greek cosmology! But it does significantly change the original simplicity of the original Hebrew Cosmology towards the Greek one. It hasn’t made an explicit connection with the planets - yet that is the reason the Greeks observed there must be 7 heavens - a number accepted by the author of Enoch regardless.

For example in the book of Enoch you quoted the writer now accepts 7 levels of heaven.
He also accepts they are now onion type layers not a single interface between earth and heaven (as with ancient Hebrew view or Baylonian view). He also accepts Greek style afterlife and “souls” but instead of just Hades (where just and unjust abide) he splits Hades in two - the righteous go to the 7th heaven whereas the unjust go to a Hades he has no doubnt turned into a Gehenna type hell (I haven’t read Enoch yet but I would be surprised if I am mistaken as the logic of what you quote above seems to call for this).
 
Last edited:
BlackFriar said:
Agreed, Hellenistic Judaism when influenced by Greek cosmology is never going to become pure Greek cosmology! But it does significantly change the original simplicity of the original Hebrew Cosmology towards the Greek one. It hasn’t made an explicit connection with the planets - yet that is the reason the Greeks observed there must be 7 heavens - a number accepted by the author of Enoch regardless.

For example in the book of Enoch you quoted the writer now accepts 7 levels of heaven.
He also accepts they are now onion type layers not a single interface between earth and heaven (as with ancient Hebrew view or Baylonian view). He also accepts Greek style afterlife and “souls” but instead of just Hades (where just and unjust abide) he splits Hades in two - the righteous go to the 7th heaven whereas the unjust go to a Hades he has no doubnt turned into a Gehenna type hell (I haven’t read Enoch yet but I would be surprised if I am mistaken as the logic of what you quote above seems to call for this).
Click to expand...
See: Cosmology and Eschatology in Jewish and Christian Apoocalypticism By Adela Yarbro Collins
p. 26:
He [W.G. Lambert] implies that the most conventional number of heavens, at least in the second and early first millennia BCE, was three. … Both forms speak of three heavenly levels: the upper heavens, the middle heavens, and the lower heavens. In the shorter older form, the upper heavens are the abode of Anu, the nominal ruler of the universe. Each level is made of a different precious stone. The lower heavens are made of Jasper, from which the sky derives its blue color. The stars are visible to those on earth from this level.
Click to expand...
p. 28, speaking of The Testament of Levi:
It is not likely that the motif of seven heavens is the result of a inner-Jewish development. Like the notion of three heavens, it was probably inspired by Babylonian tradition. According to Franchesca Rochberg-Halton, the two most common numbers of heavens in Baylonian and Assyrian tradition are three and seven. In the article on Mesopotamian cosmology she argued that the plurality of heavens and earths is not an innovation of the first millennium Babylonia. Sumerian incantations of the late second millennium already refer to seven heavens and seven earths.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I believe both are currently part of our universe. Think of the universe as an onion with many layers that are distinct yet together. Angels travel between these realms easily. They are around us and must experience time. We’re aware of these spiritual beings so they must in some way be contained within our bubble/universe. Now, the new heaven and new earth may be an expansion of our universe allowing us to travel to other universes that have also achieved union with God. Who can say! We’re still awaiting Elijah and Enoch’s return from paradise/Eden. That event may explain a lot!
 
The typical Catholic explanation is that angels are immaterial so cannot be located in any place - visible or invisible. “Place” does not apply to immaterial beings. Though young children often think of souls and angels as being invisible physical like clear plastic bags in the wind.

Yes souls and angels are said to take on bodily appearance (in the Bible for example) but the Church has never taught that as a definitively the case. What is more commonly explained seems to be that spiritual creatures can influence the imaginations of the weak to make them seem to be bodily present but in fact they are not really there bodily.

They are of course “present” by means of their influence on the mind. But that sort of “presence” is not really by means of place or location methinks.
We’re still awaiting Elijah and Enoch’s return from paradise/Eden. That event may explain a lot!
Click to expand...
I don’t know about Jews, Christians aren’t as far as I know.
 
Last edited:
In the end it doesn’t matter.
It is intrinsic to their very definitions that living mortal men cannot communicate or pass into those realms (whether heaven or sheol) while alive.

That would equally seem to mean that their existence cannot be proven through the senses - though the linkage of Jewish religion and Greek cosmology (“science”) once suggested otherwise.
 
BlackFriar said:
Please see observations already made.
Click to expand...
As soon as you provide magisterial support for your view, I’ll consider responding. Until you do, “gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.”

I’m disappointed that you refuse to provide “clear authoritative texts… to support your view”, but are attempting to require that I do so in order simply to refute your view. 🤨
 
You may have lost the nub of the thread,
Gorgias:
The Church does not teach that original sin is passed down through physical means.
Click to expand...
You are the one who denies my position (its about concupiscence not OS by the way) is in accord with Church teaching. You are attacking my view not vice versa. Yours (whatever it is) is likely acceptable also, though not mainstream and with considerable difficulties as suggested.
As my view was until recently mainstream, and has never been denied, I am happy in it.

Your only evidence is a generic one line CCC quote and an inability to soure anything further substantial when repeatedly challenged.
So discussion is over, at least for me.
 
Last edited:
Hello
Heaven is a real place where the people of God will live one day.hell when we die.
 
Gingersnaps4 said:
I think it’s possible that Heaven and Hell are actual physical places. This is one “theory” I have read and to me it’s plausible …
Click to expand...
Why do you believe silly Theories more than Jesus Christ and the Gospel?

The world is full of silly theories that’s purpose is to make the Bible incredible, because it’s not in line with worldly naturalism.
Naturalism is the belief that only natural laws and forces operate in the world and govern the universe. Aline with evolution, where evenrything started with the “big bang”, which is the silliest theory of the world, for it excludes CREATION and anything supernatural, such as God, heaven and Jesus Christ’s Redemption. Jesus anyhow just a itinerant preacher. A truly hellish theory.

Let’s finally be sure, that Christ’s word and teaching, is way above any worldly wisdom and secular theories.
Real the Bible with an open mind and heart, is disproves any other theory and you’ll get an answer on all questions.

“Gingersnaps4 said:
…but of course there is no way to know for sure.
Click to expand...

People who hear the Gospel open-hearted and with a open mind without the secular prejustice that everything must be physicalistic, definitely DO know for sure!
 
I have very strong faith in God, and I don’t happen to think that science, or being curious about His creation, questions His existence in any way. It makes total sense to me that Heaven and Hell could be physical places, seeing as we are going to get our (glorified) bodies back. For me, thinking about things like this fascinates me, it puts me in awe of God and a lack of faith has nothing to do with it.

I know that if there was a Big Bang, it was the result of God saying “Let there be light.” I am in awe of His creation!
 
BrunoMaria said:
People who hear the Gospel open-hearted and with a open mind without the secular prejustice that everything must be physicalistic, definitely DO know for sure!
Click to expand...
There I obviously meant that there is no way to know for sure if The Spiritual realm were in another dimension within our universe. I definitely DO know for sure that God exists and His Word is Truth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top