Sorry for that common mistake. Not being as well educated as some here I am sure that I make many of them. So let me see if I have this right. Something can still be valid even though it is illicit. Is that about right?Don’t worry, yours is a common mistake among people who have just read those couple of sentences of the canon law but aren’t familiar with the context or the Church’s longstanding theology on the issue (hint: most if not all Eastern Catholic churches use leavened bread). This piece from EWTN ought to give you a good starting point, though.
If you think this is just “modernism” or whatever, or don’t care what they do in the Eastern Catholic churches, then I’d happily point you to De Defectibus, which states, “If the bread has begun to mold, but it is not corrupt, or if it is not unleavened according to the custom of the Latin Church, the Sacrament is valid but the celebrant is guilty of grave sin.”
newton…are you against the EF or something? What is exactly your problem with admitting there are abuses in the OF? It’s just an observation as you seem to go against anything criticizing the OFAs none of the photos had any contextual documentation,I did not cry, nor was I even fazed. I recognized one which has been circulating the traditional and sedevacantist sites for decades.
I have never looked to the internet to find the Catholic Church. It is found in the city of Rome and those bishops and priests throughout the world in communion with the man that walks in the shoes of Peter. The Catholic Faith is just that. Faith.
Are you talking about the video posted or the photos in the OP?I don’t understand what is going on. Can someone explain please.
Because defending the OF always equals being against the EF! Always, all the time!newton…are you against the EF or something? What is exactly your problem with admitting there are abuses in the OF? It’s just an observation as you seem to go against anything criticizing the OF
The very reason for the increase in the manifestation of the Charismatic Gifts (which are Divine in origin, and not Pagan), is because of neopaganism. In the past, they manifested freuently when the west was mired in paganism, They are returning noe for the same reason. Personally, I think any Traditionalist who rejects the validity of the Charismatic gifts is not traditional enough. I welcome them. How about this: what evidence do you have that the Charismatic gifts are pagan in origin, and not of God?I find whooping it up at Mass, at Adoration or even in a church, unseemly. As Jesus is present in the Host or Tabernacle, a bit of solemnity would be better.
In my opinion, Protestants do these things because they don’t have valid sacraments. They want to feel something, to be taken out of themselves. So there is Pentecostalism: skip the Passion and head straight for Pentecost. You don’t need priests! You too can receive ‘The Spirit’.
As for what spirit you are receiving: a demon, your own subconscious, The Holy Ghost, well, that can be sorted out later.
It saddens and annoys me that we seem to heading back to paganism in the West. What’s the difference between Charismatic services and Vodou? Discuss.
there is a saying: " how you pray is how you believe."I find whooping it up at Mass, at Adoration or even in a church, unseemly. As Jesus is present in the Host or Tabernacle, a bit of solemnity would be better.
In my opinion, Protestants do these things because they don’t have valid sacraments. They want to feel something, to be taken out of themselves. So there is Pentecostalism: skip the Passion and head straight for Pentecost. You don’t need priests! You too can receive ‘The Spirit’.
As for what spirit you are receiving: a demon, your own subconscious, The Holy Ghost, well, that can be sorted out later.
It saddens and annoys me that we seem to heading back to paganism in the West. What’s the difference between Charismatic services and Vodou? Discuss.
Melchior, the TV station in brasil the biggest supposed Catholic station was built by this charismatic priest, i think, Marcelo Rossi. his cds, i have not seeing but some say his picture in the cd is of him laying on the beach posing sexy. if i say something to my aunt in brasil, she gets very mad, and say that there is nothing wrong with that, that he is just a man just like us. do you see a problem here?Because defending the OF always equals being against the EF! Always, all the time!
could be. and that is why priests rather be doing this than celebrating the Mass. these priests dont believe in the Eucharist and they dont believe in CC.I find whooping it up at Mass, at Adoration or even in a church, unseemly. As Jesus is present in the Host or Tabernacle, a bit of solemnity would be better.
In my opinion, Protestants do these things because they don’t have valid sacraments. They want to feel something, to be taken out of themselves. So there is Pentecostalism: skip the Passion and head straight for Pentecost. You don’t need priests! You too can receive ‘The Spirit’.
As for what spirit you are receiving: a demon, your own subconscious, The Holy Ghost, well, that can be sorted out later.
It saddens and annoys me that we seem to heading back to paganism in the West. What’s the difference between Charismatic services and Vodou? Discuss.
People who are possessed display ‘gifts’ also. Some people reportedly have natural psychic ability. Who is the giver?The very reason for the increase in the manifestation of the Charismatic Gifts (which are Divine in origin, and not Pagan), is because of neopaganism. In the past, they manifested freuently when the west was mired in paganism, They are returning noe for the same reason. Personally, I think any Traditionalist who rejects the validity of the Charismatic gifts is not traditional enough. I welcome them. How about this: what evidence do you have that the Charismatic gifts are pagan in origin, and not of God?
No, I am not. In fact, I have never uttered a critical word against the Tridentine Mass. Indeed, I support fully the talks with the SSPX which would make this Mass available to many more Catholics. I have always supported the efforts of those that wish to broaden it. However, even though this is the Traditional Forum, the original post was directed at a different liturgy. It is this that I am addressing.newton…are you against the EF or something? What is exactly your problem with admitting there are abuses in the OF? It’s just an observation as you seem to go against anything criticizing the OF
What an unfair and horrendously biased rejection of the Charismatic Renewal (fully supported by Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, I might add). Who says that the TLM is rejected by all those who accept the validity of the Charismatic renewal? I hesitate to call your rant a “criticism” because no critical reasoning was engaged.People who are possessed display ‘gifts’ also. Some people reportedly have natural psychic ability. Who is the giver?
The apostles astounded those around them by their eloquence, wisdom, miraculous cures and ability to be understood by the various nationalities around them. They didn’t need interpreters. They did not speak gibberish. I very much doubt if they fell to the floor in organised ‘swoons’, either.
One way, I think, to discern, is by the fruits.** Worthless psychics tell you things you already know, or trivia, or incorrect or useless information. They ‘cure’ you, but the disease recurs.**
What use is someone ‘speaking in tongues’ if it’s gibberish or telling you nothing useful? Only the Devil profits from that; leading people astray, wasting their time and energy, getting people to do silly things and thus mocking God.
Hee hee, I once said on this forum that the only place to go for modernists in the Church was having a bunch of old women dancing around the altar. And then I found out it already happens in South America!
Charismatic Masses? No problem!
LifeTeen Masses? No problem!
Folk Masses? No problem!
Everyone in the sanctuary for a photo? No problem!
Traditional Latin Mass? … errrr. well, you see …
Want to know how easily people can be fooled? One word: Medjugorje. They want to believe and if it fits in with what they want, the trick is done.
What is invoking spirits? Spiritualism. This is the essence of occultism. Sending up a flare and dallying with whatever answers.
Those in the charismatic renew rejects not only the teachings of the pope but also of the CC. i have many testimonies about this group. they look at the CC is if it was something of the past. the holy father have address this over and over again. many seem to ignore. who do you think he is talking about? the Traditionals are the ones left to fight for the CC and her teachings. even some protestants are applaude by what is going in teh Church because of this movement. the EO is another that has criticized this movement. there is a bishop in Brasil, a serious one, who have asked the holy father to excommunicate this movement because they are a destruction to the Church.What an unfair and horrendously biased rejection of the Charismatic Renewal (fully supported by Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, I might add). Who says that the TLM is rejected by all those who accept the validity of the Charismatic renewal? I hesitate to call your rant a “criticism” because no critical reasoning was engaged.
I am sorry, you are not familiar with the movement. I can speak fairly impartially because I am not active ion the movement, but have friends and acquaintances who are. Neither am I a Traditionalist, though I do attend the EF upon occasion. I think this puts me in a good place to comment. The renewal, properly practiced, does not reject the TLM, in foact I know many Charismatic Catholics who attend the TLM. There is do abuses occur? Yes. Abuses also occur on the Traditional end. Traditionalists have not cornered the market on Catholic spirituality. The Spirit moves where He will.Those in the charismatic renew rejects not only the teachings of the pope but also of the CC. i have many testimonies about this group. they look at the CC is if it was something of the past. the holy father have address this over and over again. many seem to ignore. who do you think he is talking about? the Traditionals are the ones left to fight for the CC and her teachings. even some protestants are applaude by what is going in teh Church because of this movement. the EO is another that has criticized this movement. there is a bishop in Brasil, a serious one, who have asked the holy father to excommunicate this movement because they are a destruction to the Church.
this movement does not know the teachings of the Church, they have built a Church for themselves. it is something between Catholic and protestantism. a new church.
the situation of the Church in brasil is much serious than any one can imagine. this charismatic movement is practically schismatics, they departed from the Teachings of the Church far more than anyone can imagine. they make funny of the Latin language, they look at the Latin Mass as something evil. oh, you have no idea. the holy father is trying to put up with it because so many Catholics have adhere to them. learn to discern the spirits. these things i have shown here are from those who are crying out for the Lord because they see what is happening in teh Church. they have no where to turn anymore. they are seing the destruction of the Faith and dont know what to do. why condemn those who have shown love and zeal for God and His Church while those who have shown disgust and disrespect for the Church are being praised. the last days, the last days, our Lord have warned us. “When i come, will I find any Faith.” there you have it.
I have many testimonies from “traditionalists” who favor TLM that show they reject the teachings of the Pope and also the Catholic Church (SSPV anyone?). What’s your point?Those in the charismatic renew rejects not only the teachings of the pope but also of the CC. i have many testimonies about this group. they look at the CC is if it was something of the past.
He has spoken about the Charismatic Movement alright…in a positive way. The last two Popes both spoke positively about it.the holy father have address this over and over again. many seem to ignore. who do you think he is talking about?
I’m not what one would call a “traditional”, but I certain fight for the teachings of the Church.the Traditionals are the ones left to fight for the CC and her teachings.
And if protestants like it then it must be terrible!! I wonder what you’d do if they said “hi, I’m Baptist and I like the Latin Mass”. Better get rid of the Latin Mass then.even some protestants are applaude by what is going in teh Church because of this movement.
If they practice heresy then sure, excommunicate them. But the Charismatic movement is valid and recognized by Rome, so you must understand that there are procedures to follow. Just because you met some crackpots doesn’t mean the whole movement is a wash.the EO is another that has criticized this movement. there is a bishop in Brasil, a serious one, who have asked the holy father to excommunicate this movement because they are a destruction to the Church.
Grossly incorrect. At the very least I’m on the fringe of this movement and I know a thing or two about Church teaching.this movement does not know the teachings of the Church
In Brazil perhaps, but like I said in another post; Liberation theology is so pervasive there that it wouldn’t matter what movement happens, some people will still subscribe to it.they have built a Church for themselves. it is something between Catholic and protestantism. a new church.
This I totally believe, and I agree with you that it’s serious. People who reject the Pope, regardless if they are “charismatic” or “traditional” are in serious trouble.the situation of the Church in brasil is much serious than any one can imagine.
In Brazil perhaps, but not everywhere. And probably not in all of Brazil either.this charismatic movement is practically schismatics,
Those people are incorrect, of course.they departed from the Teachings of the Church far more than anyone can imagine. they make funny of the Latin language, they look at the Latin Mass as something evil. oh, you have no idea.
Two popes have acknowledged the movement: Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Pope John Paul II stated that the movement was integral to the renewal of the entire Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II (as well as then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI) acknowledged good aspects of the movement while urging caution, pointing out members must maintain their link to the Catholic Church.[11What is the Charismatic Renewal? The term suggests that there was something decrepit that needs to be renewed. What is being spruced up?