Where is the CC?

[wisdomseeker]

It is legitimate to ask where something is in the Bible when the appeal argument is made that a practice was done in the Early Church, as found in the Bible. If all this slain stuff was in the Early Church, where is the evidence, biblical or extrabiblical, that this is the case? Oh, and the only time the language of tongues is clarified beyond the phrase “speaking in tongues”, it was a known language. We can assume that later on what Paul addressed was an unknown language, but that would be just an assumption.

For the record, no one has ever shown evidence that what is speaking in tongues today constitutes a language, and such evidence would be fairly easy to produce if it were a real language. I am all for those who want to practice the spiritual gifts, but dubious about some of the things brought over from the Pentacostal movement. They are new. To call them traditional begs for the evidence to be shown from history that this is Catholicism. So, whether from the Bible, the Church fathers, or Church writings, this should be easy to show, if it were true.

 

[CWBetts]

It is legitimate to ask where something is in the Bible when the appeal argument is made that a practice was done in the Early Church, as found in the Bible. If all this slain stuff was in the Early Church, where is the evidence, biblical or extrabiblical, that this is the case? Oh, and the only time the language of tongues is clarified beyond the phrase “speaking in tongues”, it was a known language. We can assume that later on what Paul addressed was an unknown language, but that would be just an assumption.

For the record, no one has ever shown evidence that what is speaking in tongues today constitutes a language, and such evidence would be fairly easy to produce if it were a real language. I am all for those who want to practice the spiritual gifts, but dubious about some of the things brought over from the Pentacostal movement. They are new. To call them traditional begs for the evidence to be shown from history that this is Catholicism. So, whether from the Bible, the Church fathers, or Church writings, this should be easy to show, if it were true.

I am not so sure I agree, especially since the Charismatic Renewal has had the sanction of 3 of the previous 4 Popes. (The only one who did not give explicit approval was John Paul I, bit his pontificate was so short, he really didn’t do anything.

 

[pnewton]

I am not so sure I agree, especially since the Charismatic Renewal has had the sanction of 3 of the previous 4 Popes. (The only one who did not give explicit approval was John Paul I, bit his pontificate was so short, he really didn’t do anything.

I know it has been allowed. But none of them said it was traditional in their sanctioning of it. None of them said the specific things I mentioned were practiced by the early Church. Just like Catholics can in good conscience participate in the CCR, they can also in good conscience be skeptical of certain practices, like tongues, found in the CCR.

 

[Melchior_1]

It is legitimate to ask where something is in the Bible when the appeal argument is made that a practice was done in the Early Church, as found in the Bible. If all this slain stuff was in the Early Church, where is the evidence, biblical or extrabiblical, that this is the case? Oh, and the only time the language of tongues is clarified beyond the phrase “speaking in tongues”, it was a known language. We can assume that later on what Paul addressed was an unknown language, but that would be just an assumption.

For the record, no one has ever shown evidence that what is speaking in tongues today constitutes a language, and such evidence would be fairly easy to produce if it were a real language. I am all for those who want to practice the spiritual gifts, but dubious about some of the things brought over from the Pentacostal movement. They are new. To call them traditional begs for the evidence to be shown from history that this is Catholicism. So, whether from the Bible, the Church fathers, or Church writings, this should be easy to show, if it were true.

• For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time. (Justin Martyr, c.150)

Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God. (Justin Martyr, c.150)*

It appears as if the gifts Paul spoke of were still evident in Justin’s time.

*Now the soul and the spirit are certainly a part of the man, but certainly not the man; for the perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father, and the admixture of that fleshly nature which was moulded after the image of God. For this reason does the apostle declare, “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual. For if any one take away the substance of flesh, that is, of the handiwork [of God], and understand that which is purely spiritual, such then would not be a spiritual man but would be the spirit of a man, or the Spirit of God. *

• It appears it was happening around St. Irenaeus’ time as well.

 

[CWBetts]

I know it has been allowed. But none of them said it was traditional in their sanctioning of it. None of them said the specific things I mentioned were practiced by the early Church. Just like Catholics can in good conscience participate in the CCR, they can also in good conscience be skeptical of certain practices, like tongues, found in the CCR.

I never said that I didn’t have questions about it! I have yet to go to a Praise and Worship service at FUS. And to be honest, I don’t see that changing in the near future. But since the CCR does have the approval from Rome, I will not be one to openly say it isn’t truly Catholic.

 

[pnewton]

• For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time. (Justin Martyr, c.150)*

• It appears it was happening around St. Irenaeus’ time as well.

Well done and thanks.

 

[Melchior_1]

Well done and thanks.

No problem! Tertullian also did some writing on it in one of his lengthy commentaries on Paul’s epistles. Apparently he knew someone who could interpret tongues, although I haven’t found the exact quote yet.

 

[pnewton]

No problem! Tertullian also did some writing on it in one of his lengthy commentaries on Paul’s epistles. Apparently he knew someone who could interpret tongues, although I haven’t found the exact quote yet.

That is the one area I would part company with Tertullian on. I am convinced the tongues of the NT was the gift of known languages.

 

[wisdomseeker]

• For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time. (Justin Martyr, c.150)

Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God. (Justin Martyr, c.150)*

It appears as if the gifts Paul spoke of were still evident in Justin’s time.

Now the soul and the spirit are certainly a part of the man, but certainly not the man; for the perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father, and the admixture of that fleshly nature which was moulded after the image of God. For this reason does the apostle declare, “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual. For if any one take away the substance of flesh, that is, of the handiwork [of God], and understand that which is purely spiritual, such then would not be a spiritual man but would be the spirit of a man, or the Spirit of God.

• It appears it was happening around St. Irenaeus’ time as well.

Oh my, i know you cannot possibly use this to show that what is done in the charismatic movement is what is being said. this simply cannot be possible. forgive me but what you showing here is a total lack of Wisdom. i am sorry. there is nothing in this text that have any connection whatsoever with this charismatic movement, none.

 

[Melchior_1]

Oh my, i know you cannot possibly use this to show that what is done in the charismatic movement is what is being said. this simply cannot be possible. forgive me but what you showing here is a total lack of Wisdom. i am sorry. there is nothing in this text that have any connection whatsoever with this charismatic movement, none.

If I’m lacking wisdom, you’re lacking knowledge. The texts clearly show that the gifts Paul spoke of, including tongues, were still in use after Pentecost. Read this again;

“…who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual”.

And read this one more time;

For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time.

St. Justin said this in 150 AD, well after Pentecost.

 

[CWBetts]

Oh my, i know you cannot possibly use this to show that what is done in the charismatic movement is what is being said. this simply cannot be possible. forgive me but what you showing here is a total lack of Wisdom. i am sorry. there is nothing in this text that have any connection whatsoever with this charismatic movement, none.

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

 

[wisdomseeker]

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

so, you see and i dont? i will stay with the Church of all times. the Church of yesterday, today and forever.
i was just reading a letter from a parishoner in brasil who read the words of a bishop saying that the all religion are the same. the Catholic has no place of honor in this world. another declared that the one holy catholic Church is no longer believed among us. do you think this bishop can see too?

 

[CWBetts]

so, you see and i dont? i will stay with the Church of all times. the Church of yesterday, today and forever.
i was just reading a letter from a parishoner in brasil who read the words of a bishop saying that the all religion are the same. the Catholic has no place of honor in this world. another declared that the one holy catholic Church is no longer believed among us. do you think this bishop can see too?

I am faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. The one that has given its blessing to the Charismatic renewal. Do you know better than the whole of the Church?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. The one that has given its blessing to the Charismatic renewal. Do you know better than the whole of the Church?

look, i dont think we are talking about he same here. again, i am not attacking you.
i know that the Church has been in the hands of liberals for many years. and they are trying to destroy what is holy.

these liberals dont teach me because i dont go to them. i dont listen to them.
i remember one time in my parish when the priest in his homily said that the story of Jonas was just a fabe, it was not a true story. i think most people just believed what this priest was saying, i did not. where do you think he learned this?
just the other day there was an Eucharist seminar in my town, the people in my parish went, i didnt. what they learned is that they should no more kneel before the Eucharist, they are to stand at all times. talking about a change. the holy father does not give Eucharist unless they are kneeling. hope this help you to understand what i am talking about.

 

[Melchior_1]

so, you see and i dont? i will stay with the Church of all times. the Church of yesterday, today and forever.

You’re actually not staying with the Church at all, considering you’re not listening to;

• St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians.
• St. Justin.
• St. Irenaeus.
• Venerable Pope John Paul II.
• Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
• Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Melchior_1]

just the other day there was an Eucharist seminar in my town, the people in my parish went, i didnt. what they learned is that they should no more kneel before the Eucharist, they are to stand at all times. talking about a change. the holy father does not give Eucharist unless they are kneeling. hope this help you to understand what i am talking about.

The Eastern Church stands, do they not? Several religious Orders have received while standing for centuries.

Are they all “liberals”?

 

[Aramis]

The Eastern Church stands, do they not? Several religious Orders have received while standing for centuries.

Are they all “liberals”?

All 23 of the EC Churches stand for communion. The Armenians even receive in the hand.
And, in fact, most stand throughout the liturgy.

 

[pnewton]

If I’m lacking wisdom, you’re lacking knowledge. The texts clearly show that the gifts Paul spoke of, including tongues, were still in use after Pentecost. Read this again;.

I agree that this shows presence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the early church. However, it does not show that what was a spiritual gift of communication is necessarily tongues as practiced today, that it, some unknown “language”. The only time we know for a fact what the language of tongues was, it is specified as some normal earthly languages. In modern times, I think the Venerable John Paul II is an example of someone with a spiritual gift of languages.

 

[Layman]

You’re actually not staying with the Church at all, considering you’re not listening to;

• St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians.
• St. Justin.
• St. Irenaeus.
• Venerable Pope John Paul II.
• Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
• Pope Benedict XVI.

And between 150AD and 1980AD, approx., nothing. How did we manage without it?

 

[Layman]

All 23 of the EC Churches stand for communion. The Armenians even receive in the hand.
And, in fact, most stand throughout the liturgy.

And because they do it, we secular Roman Catholics should follow? For what reason?