where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

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rinnie said:
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Easy in acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting me, he said who are you sir the reply came JESUS THE ONE YOU ARE PERSECUTING. The first church was called the Christian Church and the second Pope Ignatius was ordained by Peter, He is the first to call the Christian Church the Catholic Church. 🤷
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If Peter chose his successor why doesnt the pope today choose his? ew 666 posts!
 
Poco said:
I just thought I’d put my two cents in here! 🙂

Simply put, unless one disavows, ignores etc. in apostolic succession and the writings of the early Church Fathers, I cannot find a reasonable argument against the current “Catholic Church” being the “historical church founded by Jesus Christ”.
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It most certainly is apart of it.👍
 
wisdomseeker said:
you cannot say such a thing. Jesus says that His Church will teach the Truth because He gave the Spirit of Truth. what you said contradict what Jesus says. the reason you have doubts is because you dont know the Truth. you go by what you think and ignoring the historical facts of the Church. Jesus said: He would be wiht His Church until the end. if Jesus spoke the Truth then His Church, based on His promises. cannot teach error. it is difficult for one today to know the Truth due to so many groups preaching in the Name of our Lord. that is one more reason why it is so important that all men seek the Truth where the Truth is and not where i think the Truth is. we Catholics are under an authority Jesus and His Church, protestants claim authority for themselves as the Bible. but the Bible itself says no such thing. without the Church you are left with a historical Book without knowing what to make of it.
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That book contains the words of our LORD, they might not have authority for you but they do for me.
 
elvisman said:
That’s about the most ridiculous** thing I’ve ever heard.
Maybe it’s God’s will that a Pope be allowed to live longer** to do God’s will.
Maybe somebody should have told that to Paul when he hid in a basket and was lowered beyond the walls of Damascus to escape.

Your words, "I don’t think" seem very appropriate here . . .
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If it’s God’s will that the pope live longer, don’t you think God could do a much better job than any body guard? Of course He could.​

I learned something from your post… Paul’s hired body guards are responsible for the basket and letting him down in it. WOW. (speaking of rediculous)
 
rinnie said:
Oh no. Now Tony is accused of being the devil now. Poor Tony. Who will be next?:confused::eek:
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Thats not that hard to believe,I was told one time that I was the devil because I was Cathloic and was going to hell with all the other Cathloic.
 
wisdomseeker said:
and just what you know about indulgences? when people do great things for the Church of God, they will receive indulgences. prove to me this is contrary to God’s will. can some people abuse? sure they can.

you cannot look at the Church with the eyes of modernists. you will have to go back in history in the same way you cannot read the Bible with the eyes of modernists.
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I dont know much. Can a person write a check to avoid consequence for sin? would a contribution get my mother out of purgatory?
 
wisdomseeker said:
what Doctrines? who says any Doctrines of the CC is off track? who determines? you? as far as i know Jesus built one Church and that was 2000 yrs ago. all power and authority was given to Jesus and He gave to the Apostles(His Church).

who decides that the CC has failed? you?
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I didnt say failed, those are your words.
 
wisdomseeker said:
Now, who were the Church Fathers that dissagree with the CC? please tell us. we want to know.

you have to remember that the Church is not one man Church like protestants congregations. the Apostles appointed Bishops and many others in teh Church. as the Church went out into the world and grew these positions had to increase in numbers.

as in Acts, some teachings were popping up in some places. the Apostles got together and decided what the True teach should be. so it has been throughout the years of the Church. this has not changed. the Church protects the Truth of our Lord.

does your congregation exist for 2000 yrs and fought hereticals teachings? which doctrine has your congregation come up with? tell me.
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notice I said, “I wonder if its possible…” Knowing the nature of man, I would expect only quotes that support church doctrine to be preserved and propagated. I have seen quotes from the founding fathers of America used to support the notion that they were deists who believed in the separation of church and state, and others to prove that most were Christians who believed America is and must be a Christian nation. I have seen quotes from hitler that show he was a Christian and others that prove he was not. So rather that play the quote game I prefer to look at the record of there actions.
 
rev_kevin said:
I got this from here in the Catholic Answeres Forums from a Roman Catholic named rinnie from post 245.
How can one Catholic say one thing and another say something different. And you want us to believe that the doctrine is infallible when you can’t even agree about the first name of the church.
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You do not have a grasp on what infallibility is. It would not cover such things as history. That is what you are discussing here the history of the Church’s name. We would want you to understand WHAT infallible means and correctly represent it. Rather than spread untruths about our beliefs.
 
Hi tweetymom…🙂
Originally Posted by tweetymom View Post
Cool, because Jesus did find me and I do read the Bible.
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Because in the beginning was the word and the word was with God. Why do you believe the CC interperted everything infallible?
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Saying: "…in the beginning was the word and the word was with God, does not address the question. I know you read your bible, but that’s not what I was asking you. I am not the type of person that thinks that you must belong to the CC, or believe what the CC believes: quite the contrary. If you are happy where you are, then that is all that should matter - right? BTW, I do not believe that the CC interprets EVERYTHING infallibly. With that said, I ask with the utmost love, charity and respect for your beliefs as a sister in Christ, the following:

Why do you believe that the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God, written by the very errant, fallible Apostles, and finally collected, selected, compiled (out of a bevy of writings that were being circulated through out the Mediterranean area for the first 300 years of Christianity, as the inspired word of God, but in the end, did not make the cut) - and eventually codified by the very errant, fallible teachers/leaders of the CC, in the latter part of the 4th century,

God bless my friend…:):)🙂
 
Still hoping someone will attempt to identify the historical church of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century (long before Constantine) - founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

Thanks…:):)🙂
 
I know I’m repeating myself, but…

It seems to me, unless one disavows/ignores/denies etc. apostolic succession and the writings of the early church fathers, the church known today as “The Catholic Church” is “the historical church founded by Jesus Christ”.
 
Poco said:
I know I’m repeating myself, but…

It seems to me, unless one disavows/ignores/denies etc. apostolic succession and the writings of the early church fathers, the church known today as “The Catholic Church” is “the historical church founded by Jesus Christ”.
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I have the utmost respect for today’s Catholic Church and also for Pope Benedict. However, there is absolutely no possibility of your statement above being true. Besides many other reasons why, I will give you two. 1) Constantine took what was then the Christian church and turned it into something else. When this happened, the old church vanished. 2.) There have been more than one occasion of two Popes in history and the “conquering” Pope was not in the so called succession of Peter; thus breaking the chain. There is no doubt that the CC is the oldest church that we know of, She was bigger and badder than the rest when churches were “battling it out” so to speak.
With that being said, I do believe that the historical church Jesus founded is still alive. It just has no “Corporate” name like Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or whatever. It is alive in the hearts of men all over the world and its head is still Christ. Jesus, in our sacred scriptures, never uttered the words Catholic or Protestant or Christian for that matter. All who follow Jesus are brothers IN him. THIS is the historical church.
I don’t think, however, this in any way puts down the Catholics or anyone else! Many Catholics and also Protestants belong to the historical church, despite belonging to their earthly church organizations; (Just as Nicodemus belonged to the Pharisees but still surrendered his heart to Jesus). So - let’s all be friends and glory in the splendor of him who made the way for us ALL to be saved; from OURSELVES!
One other note on the early church Fathers. I also have respect for them. However, most of them have been excommunicated from the church or at least criticized greatly by other church Fathers after him. The church Fathers are only called “Church Fathers” because of the time period within which they lived. There have been many men after them just as faithful, just as intelligent, and just as martyred all down through time who have not been called church Fathers. And we read their writings as well.
 
joe370 said:
Still hoping someone will attempt to identify the historical church of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century (long before Constantine) - founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

Thanks…:):)🙂
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You are trying to label just one visible church denomination when in fact Jesus’ church includes people from every denomination.
 
MuddyRocker said:
I have the utmost respect for today’s Catholic Church and also for Pope Benedict. However, there is absolutely no possibility of your statement above being true. Besides many other reasons why, I will give you two. 1) Constantine took what was then the Christian church and turned it into something else. When this happened, the old church vanished. (Doki: or became invisible.) 2.) There have been more than one occasion of two Popes in history and the “conquering” Pope was not in the so called succession of Peter; thus breaking the chain. There is no doubt that the CC is the oldest church that we know of, She was bigger and badder than the rest when churches were “battling it out” so to speak.
With that being said, I do believe that the historical church Jesus founded is still alive. (Doki: me too.) It just has no “Corporate” name like Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or whatever (Doki: agreed.). It is alive in the hearts of men (Doki: and women) all over the world and its head is still Christ (Doki: Amen). Jesus, in our sacred scriptures, never uttered the words Catholic or Protestant or Christian (Doki: I have no problem with the label ‘Christian’ because the term describes a follower of Christ Jesus the Lord) for that matter. All who follow Jesus are brothers IN him. THIS is the historical church (Doki: Agreed).
I don’t think, however, this in any way puts down the Catholics or anyone else! (Doki: Agreed; however, some have ‘thin skin’) Many Catholics and also Protestants belong to the historical church (Doki: Agreed), despite belonging to their earthly church organizations; (Just as Nicodemus belonged to the Pharisees but still surrendered his heart to Jesus (Doki: very good point)). So - let’s all be friends and glory in the splendor of him who made the way for us ALL to be saved; from OURSELVES! (Doki: Amen)
One other note on the early church Fathers. I also have respect for them (Doki: Good point). However, most of them have been excommunicated from the church or at least criticized greatly by other church Fathers after him. The church Fathers are only called “Church Fathers” because of the time period within which they lived. There have been many men after them just as faithful, just as intelligent, and just as martyred all down through time who have not been called church Fathers. And we read their writings as well.
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Thank You.
 
MuddyRocker said:
I have the utmost respect for today’s Catholic Church and also for Pope Benedict. However, there is absolutely no possibility of your statement above being true. Besides many other reasons why, I will give you two. 1) Constantine took what was then the Christian church and turned it into something else. When this happened, the old church vanished. 2.) There have been more than one occasion of two Popes in history and the “conquering” Pope was not in the so called succession of Peter; thus breaking the chain. There is no doubt that the CC is the oldest church that we know of, She was bigger and badder than the rest when churches were “battling it out” so to speak.
With that being said, I do believe that the historical church Jesus founded is still alive. It just has no “Corporate” name like Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or whatever. It is alive in the hearts of men all over the world and its head is still Christ. Jesus, in our sacred scriptures, never uttered the words Catholic or Protestant or Christian for that matter. All who follow Jesus are brothers IN him. THIS is the historical church.
I don’t think, however, this in any way puts down the Catholics or anyone else! Many Catholics and also Protestants belong to the historical church, despite belonging to their earthly church organizations; (Just as Nicodemus belonged to the Pharisees but still surrendered his heart to Jesus). So - let’s all be friends and glory in the splendor of him who made the way for us ALL to be saved; from OURSELVES!
One other note on the early church Fathers. I also have respect for them. However, most of them have been excommunicated from the church or at least criticized greatly by other church Fathers after him. The church Fathers are only called “Church Fathers” because of the time period within which they lived. There have been many men after them just as faithful, just as intelligent, and just as martyred all down through time who have not been called church Fathers. And we read their writings as well.
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ok. so this is your conclusion. do you have Scriptures to back up your conclusions?
where does it say in the Bible that the historical Church lives in the heart of men?
 
“where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?”

I think the very root of the problem for Catholics is their believing that Jesus’ Church was built on Peter and that he kept the Keys of the Kingdom to himself and did not share them with everyone he could.

Christians believe that the rock the church is built on is Peter’s faith which still points to Peter.

It is the TRUTH of the statement that Peter uttered. You could say the Words that Peter uttered which became** Scripture**. Look at the power of GOD’s Word- it created the world, died for us on the cross, is written for all to read that by believing all can be saved.

What did the Apostles and Prophets do? They preached GOD’s Word:

Ephesians 2
20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

There is only one rock -

Corinthians 10:4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ

Romans 9:33As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Habakkuk 1: 12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting?
My God, my Holy One, we will not die.
O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment;
O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

Isaiah 26: 4 Trust in the LORD forever,
for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

Psalm 144:
1 Praise be to the LORD my Rock,
who trains my hands for war,
my fingers for battle.

Psalm 94: 22 But the LORD has become my fortress,
and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.

Psalm 62: 2 He alone is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

Isaiah 44:8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

2 Samuel 22: 32 For who is God besides the LORD ?
And who is the Rock except our God?

1 Corinthians 3:11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ

SO any Church of any denomination that has as it’s foundation the TRUTH that is in Scripture is a part of Jesus’ Church.

All of this should not belittle the Catholic’s part in Jesus’ Church, protecting and preserving the Scripture. Anyone else see the irony in this-that Catholics do not use Scripture as the final judge /measuring stick for doctrine!
 
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