where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[MuddyRocker]

ok. so this is your conclusion. do you have Scriptures to back up your conclusions?
where does it say in the Bible that the historical Church lives in the heart of men?

I will answer your question if you will correctly answer mine. Where in scripture does it say “the historical church” period? Whether in the hearts of men, in the mind of God, or in the vestibule of Basilica?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

how are you being used to build the Kingdom of God, if you are outside the Church and fighting against the very Chruch Jesus found?

** To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it St Ignatious fo Loyola. **

I belong to and support Christs church I do not attack it, there are variations in teachings and I will participate in discusing those differences in what I intend to be a charitable manor. If I dont come across as charitable please let me know.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Sure we can, we can see it quite clear on how we live our lives.

Tobit 4:15 Do to no one what you yourself dislike
Matt 7:12 Do to others what you would have done to you
John 13:34 Love one another as I have loved you
Romans 3:8 Good intentions do not justify evil means
Romans 14:21 IT is not good to do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Those are all visible signs my love, given to us by the Grace of God, And when we obey these rules we can not only see a visible connection, we can actually be a part of changing peoples lives with Gods Grace.

Unfortunately I dont know a single Catholic outside of this forum whos lives reflect anything that I would connect to Christs church. Thats not to say there arent millions of wonderful Catholics I asume there are, I just dont know any. If it werent for this forum I would have a pretty low opinion of what Catholisim does for its members. I did attend a mass a couple weeks ago hoping to meet some and discovered that Catholics dont do much fellowshipping at mass. but at least I got to see some Catholics who seamed to take there faith seriously.

 

[rev_kevin]

You do not have a grasp on what infallibility is. It would not cover such things as history. That is what you are discussing here the history of the Church’s name. We would want you to understand WHAT infallible means and correctly represent it. Rather than spread untruths about our beliefs.

I know what infallible is, can’t be wrong, but only God is infallible.
But isn’t your history from infallible men?
Isn’t your doctrine or some of it come from history that has been interperated by or made up by so called infallilbe men?
Isn’t your history from infallible traditions?
See its been told here in this forum that tradition and history can’t be wrong because it was from infallible men or is it certain parts of history and traditions that are infallible?
If you can’t get a simple thing like church history ie: the mane of the first church, correct then how do we know that your doctrine is correct like you want us to believe.
The question was where did I get my facts and I stated where but you won’t say anything about where I got it from probably because it came from a Roman Catholic. Instead you challange my knowledge of infalliblity. Why not correct the one who gave me the info?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Where do you get your so-called "facts"?
The Church was never named “The Christian Church” in the first century. It was always the Catholic Church. When Ignatius of Antioch writes to the Smyrnaeans at the beginning of the second century - it is alread a well-established name. Just as when he speaks of the Holy Eucharist - it is already a well-established belief.

Acts 11:26 tells us that disciples were first called “Christians”. History tells us that this was almost a derogatory term to identify these early “rabble-rousers”.

I thought it was called “the Way” by early Christians. could be wrong:shrug:

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

**Yes, I *certainly ***see that you are valued and useful. Just come home.

thank you, that was kind of you to say. God has had a way of moving my wife and I where He wants us. The transformation He has worked in us and the people he has used to minister to us has been in the little church we are now in. It would take an act of God to move us out of this congregation. I dont know if you have read our testimony but we have come a long way with the help of Jesus.

 

[elvisman]

I got this from here in the Catholic Answeres Forums from a Roman Catholic named rinnie from post 245.
How can one Catholic say one thing and another say something different. And you want us to believe that the doctrine is infallible when you can’t even agree about the first name of the church.

If rinnie made a mistake - or injected spome context into her statement without knowing - why would you be so quick to accept her claim.
I’ll tell you why - because it removes the word, “Catholic”.
Nothing but a cheap ploy, my fanti-Catholic riend.

 

[elvisman]

thank you, that was kind of you to say. God has had a way of moving my wife and I where He wants us. The transformation He has worked in us and the people he has used to minister to us has been in the little church we are now in. It would take an act of God to move us out of this congregation. I dont know if you have read our testimony but we have come a long way with the help of Jesus.

That’s awesome. God certainly moves in mysterious ways in all of us.

 

[elvisman]

I thought it was called “the Way” by early Christians. could be wrong:shrug:

**That’s a good point. **
My claim was that it wasn’t referred to as the “Christian Church” in Scripture.
As for “The Way” - that name never made it out of the 1st century.

 

[rev_kevin]

If rinnie made a mistake - or injected spome context into her statement without knowing - why would you be so quick to accept her claim.
I’ll tell you why - because it removes the word, "Catholic".
Nothing but a cheap ploy, my fanti-Catholic riend.

You asked where I got my information from and I told you where. After seeing your responce I started to question who is right and if one say one thing and another says something eles then the facts are not correct and who is right. Then I started thinking about the teachings of the CC and if you can’t get the history of the name of the first church was how do we know that the teachings of the CC are correct. Then I noticed another answer which was “the Way” so which is it? See my point. probably not.

 

[elvisman]

I know what infallible is, can’t be wrong, but only God is infallible.
But isn’t your history from infallible men?
Isn’t your doctrine or some of it come from history that has been interperated by or made up by so called infallilbe men?
Isn’t your history from infallible traditions?
See its been told here in this forum that tradition and history can’t be wrong because it was from infallible men or is it certain parts of history and traditions that are infallible?
If you can’t get a simple thing like church history ie: the mane of the first church, correct then how do we know that your doctrine is correct like you want us to believe.
The question was where did I get my facts and I stated where but you won’t say anything about where I got it from probably because it came from a Roman Catholic. Instead you challange my knowledge of infalliblity. Why not correct the one who gave me the info?

Infallibility does not mean impeccability.
Also - it is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church to declare the truth (John 16:12-15) - she (the Church) doesn’t do it on her own.

You seem to think that the Church claims she doesn’t make mistakes or that the Pope knows everything and is never wrong.
That’s where your misconception of infalllibility lies.

 

[elvisman]

You asked where I got my information from and I told you where. After seeing your responce I started to question who is right and if one say one thing and another says something eles then the facts are not correct and who is right. Then I started thinking about the teachings of the CC and if you can’t get the history of the name of the first church was how do we know that the teachings of the CC are correct. Then I noticed another answer which was “the Way” so which is it? See my point. probably not.

You didn’t read post 369 - did you?

 

[rev_kevin]

Infallibility does not mean impeccability.
Also - it is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church to declare the truth (John 16:12-15) - she (the Church) doesn’t do it on her own.

You seem to think that the Church claims she doesn’t make mistakes or that the Pope knows everything and is never wrong.
That’s where your misconception of infalllibility lies.

Then you need to tell alot of Catholics here that because it has been told to us time after time that the pope is infallible. It has been told to us time and time again that the churchs teachings are infallible or not wrong. So who is right. See the contradictions or misreprsentation of some Catholics here. Set them straight before you try to set us straight.

 

[rev_kevin]

You didn’t read post 369 - did you?

Ya I did. So what is it. the Way, the Christian church, the Catholic church or is there another name?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

**Those early councils - as many of them do - were convened to combat **heresies, such as the Arian Heresy in the 4th century. Virtually every heresy begins with the misconception of the nature of the nature of God.

Just as with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. It says that there was much debate before Peter, who was the leader, stood up and declared their beliefs - that were are saved solely by the grace of God and that gentile Christians should not be held to Jewish Law customs. Afterward, James, the Bishop of Jerusalem stood up and agreed.

The Pope is not a tyrant nor is he a king. He is here to serve the Church. One of his official titles is the “Servant of the Servants of God”.

I have seen pictures of the pope being carried by men on what looks like a throne, contrast this with the grand entrance of our Lord on palm Sunday. see a difference? the God the pope serves rode in on a donkey! how can the servant be treated better than the master? My pastor will often be seen clearing our dirty plates away after a meal. When I first arrived at this church I insisted my wife must submit to my authority. My pastor taught me what servant leadership means. My wife gets the better deal! I dont mean to come across as attacking the pope, may God bless him and give him wisdom in leading the Catholic church. I just dont see Christian church leadership looking that way.

 

[elvisman]

Then you need to tell alot of Catholics here that because it has been told to us time after time that the pope is infallible. It has been told to us time and time again that the churchs teachings are infallible or not wrong. So who is right. See the contradictions or misreprsentation of some Catholics here. Set them straight before you try to set us straight.

Wrong.
Day after day on this forum, I see the corrections being made about the misconception of infallibility. The Pope is infallible when declaring matters of faith and morals. These are not “new” truths. they are the truth and he is guided by the Holy Spirit when declaring these things. He DOESN’T know who is going to win the World Series or when Jesus will return or know what’s in the hearts of every man.
That would make him impeccable.**

If you were to be honest with yourself - and the Catholics you debate - you would go directly to the source of Catholic doctrines - the Catechism.

 

[elvisman]

Ya I did. So what is it. the Way, the Christian church, the Catholic church or is there another name?

You’re angry.
Read it again when you’ve calmed down and you might see clearer.

 

[rev_kevin]

You’re angry.
**Read it again when you’ve calmed down and you might **see clearer.

Not angry at all. I reread it and you are saying that the are the same church correct?
But can you explain why the name change?
And why don’t you correct the one who gave me the wrong information?

 

[PJM]

=joe370;6308063]Question for non-Catholics: I believe that all Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church comprise the mystical Body, the Church(es) (as opposed to church) - to which Jesus Christ is the Head and Savior. However they are all isolated autonomous churches.

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

Friend,

In order to reply I need to understand where your foundation for the CC not being the church of Matt. 16, comes from?

 

[elvisman]

I have seen pictures of the pope being carried by men on what looks like a throne, contrast this with the grand entrance of our Lord on palm Sunday. see a difference? the God the pope serves rode in on a donkey! how can the servant be treated better than the master? My pastor will often be seen clearing our dirty plates away after a meal. When I first arrived at this church I insisted my wife must submit to my authority. My pastor taught me what servant leadership means. My wife gets the better deal! I dont mean to come across as attacking the pope, may God bless him and give him wisdom in leading the Catholic church. I just dont see Christian church leadership looking that way.

**If Jesus wasn’t carried around on a gold-leafed litter - you have to remember that Jesus was rejected by the world and murdered. The early Christians were tortured and murdered. There was little to no respect for Christianity or Jesus - but that doesn’t mean that it should have remained that way. **

Over the centuries, Christianity permeated every sector of society and the world because of the Great Commission - and thank GOD for that. Jesus is recpected and worshipped by billions now isn’t he?

If the Pope today is treated with grandiose respect with all of the trappings - it is because of the faith of the people he shepherds - because of WHO he represents - not because of him. He is the vicar of Christ - not Christ himself. If Christ descended from the heavens - we wouldn’t treat him like the Pope - we would fall prostrate to the ground in front of him and worship him.

Granted - there are faithful Catholics who go overboard but this is not the norm and it is not condoned, let alone encouraged.