where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[joe370]

If you can’t get a simple thing like church history ie: the mane of the first church, correct then how do we know that your doctrine is correct like you want us to believe.

If the divided Protestant churches can’t get a simple thing like a concesus regarding doctrinal truth, right, and church history ie: the teachings of the first church, correct then how can I know that their doctrine is correct? You said the first church; interesting!!! Please give me the name of the first historical church?

The question was where did I get my facts and I stated where but you won’t say anything about where I got it from probably because it came from a Roman Catholic. Instead you challange my knowledge of infalliblity. Why not correct the one who gave me the info?

Did you receive your facts from an infallible source? Of course not, for no one is infallible. It is possible to be infallible (without error in some instances, ie Math and science. The statement 2+2= 4 is an infallible statement. However, when it comes to the revealed teachings of Jesus Christ, passed on to the fallible Apostles (apostolic church) - 2000 years ago, infallibility becomes rather questionable, due to the fallen nature of the people belonging to Jesus’ church, and that is why, to me anyway, it is so important to locate the church founded by God, in the first century, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, forever guided by the HS into all revealed truth. Can revealed truth be found in every church? Of course. The problem I had as a former Lutheran was where all of these churches (founded by man) - collided, doctrinally speaking. If I didn’t believe that the CC was the historical church founded by Jesus Christ, in the 1st century, in Jerusalem, I would not have left the Lutheran church. It’s not about claiming that one church is better than another church; far from it. It’s about locating (for me anyway) - the church founded by God as opposed to man. As a former Lutheran I could provide the name of the man who founded each respective Protestant church, and when, but I could not provide the name of the man who founded the Easrern Orthodox church or the Catholic church, or when, other than Jesus Christ, in the first century. I was ultimately left with 2 choices on my journey to the historical church founded by Jesus.

 

[joe370]

CatholicGuy22;6342709]I love all my brothers and sisters in christ but i am tired of seeing all this fighting. It is ok to have some debate but we should do it out of love and not pride.

Amen brother! I hope everyone here reads your post!!!

 

[adrift]

I know what infallible is, can’t be wrong, but only God is infallible.
But isn’t your history from infallible men?
Isn’t your doctrine or some of it come from history that has been interperated by or made up by so called infallilbe men?
Isn’t your history from infallible traditions?
See its been told here in this forum that tradition and history can’t be wrong because it was from infallible men or is it certain parts of history and traditions that are infallible?
If you can’t get a simple thing like church history ie: the mane of the first church, correct then how do we know that your doctrine is correct like you want us to believe.
The question was where did I get my facts and I stated where but you won’t say anything about where I got it from probably because it came from a Roman Catholic. Instead you challange my knowledge of infalliblity. Why not correct the one who gave me the info?

You say you know what infallible is than go on with questions which show you do NOT know what infallible is.

In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals

what is claimed for the pope is infallibility merely, not impeccability or inspiration (see above under I).​

the infallibility claimed for the pope is the same in its nature, scope, and extent as that which the Church as a whole possesses; his ex cathedra teaching does not have to be ratified by the Church’s in order to be infallible.​

infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:​

 

[joe370]

=MuddyRocker;6342382]

Just a point of clairification:

I believe that the CC is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ. This thread was more or less addressed to non-Catholics.

 

[joe370]

Tweetymom, I agree with you regarding all churches being part of the Mystical Body of Christ, to which Jesus is the head and savior.

If I lived in the 1st century, 4th century or the 10nth century, to which church, in the world today, would I belong? Certainly that would answer my question regarding the historical church founded by Jesus on Pentecost, in the 1st century, in Jerusalem, without denying anything that you have said at this thread?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Do you think that St. Ignatius meant the universal church of believers or the Entity of the Roman Catholic Church in Rome when he wrote his famous line?

See this article in the Catholic Encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

St Ignatious was a Catholic. he says that heretics is no part of the CC. there is only one Church that is called Catholic by the whole world, it is the Church in Rome and all the Church throughout the world under the Bishop of Rome.

this is your article.
**
“Among the Greeks it was natural that while Catholic served as the distinctive description of the one Church, the etymological significance of the word was never quite lost sight of. Thus in the “Catechetical Discourses” of St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 347) he insists on the one hand (sect. 26): “And if ever thou art sojourning in any city, inquire not simply where the Lord’s house is–for the sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens, houses of the Lord–nor merely where the church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of the holy body the mother of us all.” On the other hand when discussing the word Catholic, which already appears in his form of the baptismal creed, St. Cyril remarks: (sect. 23) “Now it [the Church] is called Catholic because it is throughout the world, from one end of the earth to the other.” But we shall have occasion to quote this passage more at length later on.” **

that is what separates the True Church from the heretical ones.

 

[rev_kevin]

You say you know what infallible is than go on with questions which show you do NOT know what infallible is.

Re-read the questions I question the infallibility of certain things not about infallibility itself.

 

[rev_kevin]

If the divided Protestant churches can’t get a simple thing like a concesus regarding doctrinal truth, right, and church history ie: the teachings of the first church, correct then how can I know that their doctrine is correct? You said the first church; interesting!!! Please give me the name of the first historical church?
Well according to rinnie, a Roman Catholic here on the forum, said it was called the Christian Church, the according to another Catholic here it was the Way then according to another source here it is the Catholic Church. See 3 different answers from 3 different sources.

I know no one is infallible thats what I’v been saying all along. But I’m glad that you can give the names of who founded what church, does that make you more special then others. I really don’t care who founded what church I know I follow God and the name of a church matters not. Jesus said follow me not follow the CC. So I follow Jesus.
Did you receive your facts from an infallible source? Of course not, for no one is infallible. It is possible to be infallible (without error in some instances, ie Math and science. The statement 2+2= 4 is an infallible statement. However, when it comes to the revealed teachings of Jesus Christ, passed on to the fallible Apostles (apostolic church) - 2000 years ago, infallibility becomes rather questionable, due to the fallen nature of the people belonging to Jesus’ church, and that is why, to me anyway, it is so important to locate the church founded by God, in the first century, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, forever guided by the HS into all revealed truth. Can revealed truth be found in every church? Of course. The problem I had as a former Lutheran was where all of these churches (founded by man) - collided, doctrinally speaking. If I didn’t believe that the CC was the historical church founded by Jesus Christ, in the 1st century, in Jerusalem, I would not have left the Lutheran church. It’s not about claiming that one church is better than another church; far from it. It’s about locating (for me anyway) - the church founded by God as opposed to man. As a former Lutheran I could provide the name of the man who founded each respective Protestant church, and when, but I could not provide the name of the man who founded the Easrern Orthodox church or the Catholic church, or when, other than Jesus Christ, in the first century. I was ultimately left with 2 choices on my journey to the historical church founded by Jesus.

 

[rev_kevin]

So god made you your own pope and gave you your own authority.
Thats very interesting.

Matthew

I got it from God like all the others have. Where did the CC get if from, lets see from the same one I got it from God. Why does it matter to you any way? Is it hurting you some how or some way?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I got it from God like all the others have. Where did the CC get if from, lets see from the same one I got it from God. Why does it matter to you any way? Is it hurting you some how or some way?

No, Rev. although i like you. i have to say that the CC has been sent by Jesus. it is all recorded. the Church which is called Catholic by the whole world then and today.

who ordained you? who ordained those who ordained you?

forgive us, but as Catholics we dont understand how a person can be ordained wihtout the successors of the Apostles. i know you read the Bible but can the Bible ordain people? again i mean no offense to you.

** “But this mysterious function the Lord wished to be indeed the concern of all the apostles, but in such a way that He has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the Apostles: and from him as from the Head wishes His gifts to flow to all the body: so that any one who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D.440-461], Epistle 10 (A.D 445). **

 

[rev_kevin]

No, Rev. although i like you. i have to say that the CC has been sent by Jesus. it is all recorded. the Church which is called Catholic by the whole world then and today.

who ordained you? who ordained those who ordained you?

forgive us, but as Catholics we dont understand how a person can be ordained wihtout the successors of the Apostles. i know you read the Bible but can the Bible ordain people? again i mean no offense to you.

** “But this mysterious function the Lord wished to be indeed the concern of all the apostles, but in such a way that He has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the Apostles: and from him as from the Head wishes His gifts to flow to all the body: so that any one who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D.440-461], Epistle 10 (A.D 445). **

None taken. No matter what I say about me being ordained the CC will not accept. So I really don’t think we should make a big deal out of this. I dedicate my life to doing God work. Whether anyone accepts it or not really don’t matter.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Easy if you have a problem with the CC being the one church. I don’treject any church,.

I have no problem with the church that christ founded… The Catholic Church…! There is only One true church! the church which you seem to reject. Why is that? Is it authority? Is it because you can’t see the forest because there are trees in the way? Is it because you can’t accept the whole truth? Only select parts that fit your fancy? How do you know you have the truth when you reject the church that has the complete truth?
I’ll tell you what… I’ll say a rosary for you tomorrow after mass o.k.
May god bless you and yours,

Matthew

 

[joe370]

rev_kevin:
I understand that you believe that church affiliation matters naught, and that is certainly your right to believe, and I respect your rights and beliefs, unquestionably. All I really wanted to know is: if I lived in the 1st, century, 4th century, the 10nth century or the 15th century to which church in the world today, would I belong?

You said:

But I’m glad that you can give the names of who founded what church, does that make you more special then others.

Why the sarcasm and when did I ever say that that made me more special than others? I was simply pointing out that these churches were not founded by the man Jesus Christ, in the 1st century. If I started a church tomorrow and within 2 years established a sizable following, you certainly wouldn’t suggest that my church founded in 2010, was the church founded by Christ, 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, on Pentecost - right?

I really don’t care who founded what church

OK…I respect that.

I know I follow God and the name of a church matters not.

OK…I respect that.

Jesus said follow me not follow the CC. So I follow Jesus.

Do you defer to any particular church leadership for guidance? Just curious.

 

[wisdomseeker]

None taken. No matter what I say about me being ordained the CC will not accept. So I really don’t think we should make a big deal out of this. I dedicate my life to doing God work. Whether anyone accepts it or not really don’t matter.

sure i quite understand.

what i hear about many who converted to the CC as that they discover the authority in the Church being place by God. they decide to abandone everything, their pastor jobs, friends, and etc. i know this is not as easy to do as someone may imagine… they come to a point that nothing matters to them but being in the Church Jesus found. i can tell you that the joy of being in His Church is indescrible.

 

[Loboto-Me]

sure i quite understand.

what i hear about many who converted to the CC as that they discover the authority in the Church being place by God. they decide to abandone everything, their pastor jobs, friends, and etc. i know this is not as easy to do as someone may imagine… they come to a point that nothing matters to them but being in the Church Jesus found. i can tell you that the joy of being in His Church is indescrible.

This is the first thing I thought about. The huge huge sacrifice those who come home to the Church that Christ provided us would have to make.

The loss of “face”, loss of friends and family, loss of income (for pastors). What a gift that would be for Jesus to do that for Him! Who is the famous ex pastor that did that? His story was amazing to listen to but I forget who it was.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is the first thing I thought about. The huge huge sacrifice those who come home to the Church that Christ provided us would have to make.

The loss of “face”, loss of friends and family, loss of income (for pastors). What a gift that would be for Jesus to do that for Him! Who is the famous ex pastor that did that? His story was amazing to listen to but I forget who it was.

there are many. i will find.

here you can find many testemonies and debates.

bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm

 

[rev_kevin]

sure i quite understand.

what i hear about many who converted to the CC as that they discover the authority in the Church being place by God. they decide to abandone everything, their pastor jobs, friends, and etc. i know this is not as easy to do as someone may imagine… they come to a point that nothing matters to them but being in the Church Jesus found. i can tell you that the joy of being in His Church is indescrible.

I know what your saying, but I very happy where I’m at. I feel more close to God then I ever have felt before. I have nothing against the CC my whole family is Catholic I just disagree with some of their teachings. I just pray that we all can get along because no matter what church you belong to we all have one thing in common, the belief that Jesus is our savior.

 

[rev_kevin]

I understand that you believe that church affiliation matters naught, and that is certainly your right to believe, and I respect your rights and beliefs, unquestionably. All I really wanted to know is: if I lived in the 1st, century, 4th century, the 10nth century or the 15th century to which church in the world today, would I belong?
Jewish, Christian, none.

You said:

Why the sarcasm and when did I ever say that that made me more special than others? I was simply pointing out that these churches were not founded by the man Jesus Christ, in the 1st century. If I started a church tomorrow and within 2 years established a sizable following, you certainly wouldn’t suggest that my church founded in 2010, was the church founded by Christ, 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, on Pentecost - right?
I was wrong for the sarcasm. To me it don’t matte when a church was founded as long as they are a God loving church, with morals. love for others. believe that Jesus is our savior.

OK…I respect that.

OK…I respect that.

Do you defer to any particular church leadership for guidance? Just curious.

Several from different denominations.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I know what your saying, but I very happy where I’m at. I feel more close to God then I ever have felt before. I have nothing against the CC my whole family is Catholic I just disagree with some of their teachings. I just pray that we all can get along because no matter what church you belong to we all have one thing in common, the belief that Jesus is our savior.

sure. no problem. just keep in mind and learn as much as you can about the CC.

i know about disagreeing. remember what Jesus went through because so many dissagree with Him? the same wiht His Church. have you tried to look around and notice how many people dont agree with the CC?

not to me, but for many obedience is a word of the past. in the old days people didnt know much, not many could read, much were uneducated and yet they had Faith and great Faith. they heard and obeyd. they were faithfull to the things of God. today, much more education, most people can read, most are well educated, but their education has driven many away instead of closer to God. because they consider themselves well educated they think they can figure out everything. their hearts are very far from God.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I got it from God like all the others have. Where did the CC get if from, lets see from the same one I got it from God. Why does it matter to you any way? Is it hurting you some how or some way?

And how did you get this? and what others are you taking about? The catholic church got it from christ and the holy spirit! What makes you above the church that christ founded!
Can you or anyone improve on the church christ founded??? It matters to me because you make your self your own authority thats way! You can disagree with church teachings all you want but it will always be your opinion! Since you have no authority what so ever.
The early church fathers would be a good starting point for you.
But you know something rev…You can lead a horse to water…

May god bless you and yours…

Matthew