where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[CMatt25]

are you serious? i just gave a quote from the 300s.AD.

as you know, at least i think you should know that the books of the Bible(NT) only includes the letters of the Apostles after that it stopped. but letters continued to be written by the leaders of the Church. do you believe that the Church stopped existing then? do you believe that all the work of the Apostles building that One Church of Jesus was for nothing? that the Jesus who chose St Peter and 12 Apostles was unable to continue HIs chosen of others like the Apostles to continue to build His Church and defend the Faith from false teachings?

Lets see from the 300s or in Scripture in Acts? Let me ponder Wisdom what I should believe in light of later “successors”.

 

[CMatt25]

Sorry buddy, I can’t see or spell today. Here it is if you google this you should find it quick.

The Epistle of Ignatus to the Smyrnaeans. I can’t see Jack without my glasses anymore. Sorry if spell isn’t exact but should get you there:blush:.

Rinnie, I hear ya. I can’t always see jack with mine.

 

[wisdomseeker]

We cannot hold the spiritual descendants of the Reformers responsible for the heresies of their forebears. Most modern Protestants don’t even realize that they are separated from the Apostolic faith. The Readers Digest version of Christianity is all they have ever known. Even more, they are trained to believe that the Catholic church has “added to the gospel” with all these “traditions and teachings of men”. They do not know that these elements of the faith were taught and handed down by the Apostles.

So, as far as they know, they are Christians to the extent that they are informed about the Christian life. They are like Apollos, fervent, but uninformed.

yes, i quite understand that. the pope says they cannot be called heretics, then the pope calls for a new evangelization. i think they go together.

but we are not arguing about who believes in Christ or not. we all believe in Christ. what we are doing is having a discussion on the Church. is the Church that Christ found important in today’s world? or it doesnt matter what church you belong to? that is what the argument seem to be all about.

 

[guanophore]

So in that case the Douay Rheims is wrong and didn’t translate properly. Because the word Catholic does not appear.

When the Douay was printed, there was not a concern about the Source of the Scriptures and the Church fiounded by Christ being Catholic.

I am not sure why you say it is not translated properly. the English translation of the Gk Kath Holos is “the church throughout all”. Catholic means universal. The entire Christian Church was Catholic, the same everywhere around the world.

 

[rinnie]

No, the HS is given to all who are born again by water and spirit. However, not everyone has the same role or ministry in the Body. Jesus placed the Apostles in the position of authority, and they passed this authority on to their successors, the bishops. Further, the HS is not divisive. The HS is not going to lead individuals in a different direction than He has led the Church, the Bride of Christ. Therefore, when individuals interpret, it is essential to do so in the light of what God has already revealed to the Church.

Tweey my love, do you see what I have been trying to tell you. God gives us all different gifts. See how I agree with you yes, you can read the bible, we all can. But just because we are baptised ad have the gift of the HS we cannot interpret scripture we must listen to what Jesus taught us through the Church. We must have the scripture UNITE us in Christ not separate us. So the Church must teach us all the same thing, so when we do read the bible we can all be on the same page.

 

[guanophore]

Hi GUAN, Haven’t seen you for awhile. I missed you.

And I Thou! Graduate school has swept me away. I am loafing off my homework as we speak.

 

[Cursilista]

No just the things needed for salvation- it is so simple. No big mysteries- which in fact would be gnostic in nature.

Much of what Jesus taught to the Disciples was to prove that He was in fact the Son of GOD, the Messiah.

This is our “ammunition” to use against those that don’t believe.

That is just an assumption on your part about what Jesus taught his disciples outside of what was included in the bible

ammunition is not blanks , but not very high caliber

Sure some tradtions were passed down by the Apostles. I just don’t believe that the traditions continues to grow and are to be added to.

As in 1870’s all of a sudden it is revealed that the Pope is infallible, or at such a late date Mary was assumed. Or that all of a sudden centuries later Mary is to be called the 'Mother of GOD"?

By your reasoning, all knowledge was immediately in the minds of the all knowing apostles and no further revelations through prayer or consultation among them was needed because they all had a perfect understanding of everything they were thought by Jesus. Explain then why was it nessecarry for Paul to remind Peter and the other apostles that salvation was for everyone, If no further revelations are occuring.

 

[CMatt25]

yes, i quite understand that. the pope says they cannot be called heretics, then the pope calls for a new evangelization. i think they go together.

but we are not arguing about who believes in Christ or not. we all believe in Christ. what we are doing is having a discussion on the Church. is the Church that Christ found important in today’s world? or it doesnt matter what church you belong to? that is what the argument seem to be all about.

Sure the Church, the body of Christ found by Him is important in today’s world. His Christian body.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Lets see from the 300s or in Scripture in Acts? Let me ponder Wisdom what I should believe in light of later “successors”.

matt,
you are trying my patiente.

if you cant believe that the Church continued and had authority there is nothing i can for you. you can follow whatever you want to believe. it doesnt matter to me. i am just answering your questions. i just dont know how you are going to understand the Truth among so many different preaching of the Gospel.

tell me how do you test the Spirit? based on what?

 

[CMatt25]

When the Douay was printed, there was not a concern about the Source of the Scriptures and the Church fiounded by Christ being Catholic.

I am not sure why you say it is not translated properly. the English translation of the Gk Kath Holos is “the church throughout all”. Catholic means universal. The entire Christian Church was Catholic, the same everywhere around the world.

And the entire Christian Church is still universal. That’s what some protestants mean when they say they believe in one holy catholic church.

 

[guanophore]

That is just an assumption on your part about what Jesus taught his disciples outside of what was included in the bible

No, these teachings are preserved in the same Sacred Traditions that produced the New Testament. They did not cease to be true just because some of them were written down.

By your reasoning, all knowledge was immediately in the minds of the all knowing apostles and no further revelations through prayer or consultation among them was needed because they all had a perfect understanding of everything they were thought by Jesus. Explain then why was it nessecarry for Paul to remind Peter and the other apostles that salvation was for everyone, If no further revelations are occuring.

The Church teaches that public revelation ceased after the death of the last Apostle. Jesus contained the full revelation of God to mankind of Himself. We continue to work out how that revelation applies to our modern day and age, which is the duty of the teaching authority appointed by Christ - not to create new revelation, but to apply what was given.

 

[Dokimas]

No, the HS is given to all who are born again by water and spirit. However, not everyone has the same role or ministry in the Body. Jesus placed the Apostles in the position of authority, and they passed this authority on to their successors, the bishops. Further, the HS is not divisive. The HS is not going to lead individuals in a different direction than He has led the Church, the Bride of Christ. Therefore, when individuals interpret, it is essential to do so in the light of what God has already revealed to the Church.

Good to see you back. God bless you.​

I agree with what you’ve said. First, tell Wisdom - post #508, please. Second, I most likely disagree with you application of your statement.

 

[CMatt25]

matt,
you are trying my patiente.

if you cant believe that the Church continued and had authority there is nothing i can for you. you can follow whatever you want to believe. it doesnt matter to me. i am just answering your questions. i just dont know how you are going to understand the Truth among so many different preaching of the Gospel.

tell me how do you test the Spirit? based on what?

Wisdom, that’s ok you try mine too. After much prayer and study and contemplation, based on my understanding. I’ve never claimed infallibilty. Only that we are united in Him. Going to a meat dinner now which I can have since it’s not Friday. Peace.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Sure the Church, the body of Christ found by Him is important in today’s world. His Christian body.

you mean everyone who preachs Christ? everyone who condemns the CC and preaches against the CC? so they keep people away from teh Church? are these all Christ’s Church? the ones who says to the people that the CC is the whore of Babylon? they all preach Christ. they call themselves christians, dont they?

how is your logic that the Church is all Christians?

you should hear father Corapi on this one.

just tell me how is the HS who these so called christians says they have through the same Spirit can call the CC found by Christ whore of babylon? do you think they have the HS of God? can God call His Church whore of Babylon?

oh yes, Jesus said that a Kingdom divided is a Kingdom destroyed. can God fight against His own Kingdom? not according to Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

And the entire Christian Church is still universal. That’s what some protestants mean when they say they believe in one holy catholic church.

Yes, all those who are united to Christ as Head are members of His mystical body, the church. However, Protestants are imperfectly joined to the One Body, because they are lacking in part of the Truth.

 

[Matariel]

Yes, all those who are united to Christ as Head are members of His mystical body, the church. However, Protestants are imperfectly joined to the One Body, because they are lacking in part of the Truth.

Yeah, but the Protestant denominations, as institutions, are not part of the Mystical Body of Christ, which subsists in the one Catholic Church. In other words, baptized Protestants are in communion with the Mystical Body in a severely impaired way; but they are in communion *in spite *of their Protestantism, and because Baptism is a *Catholic *sacrament of the *Catholic *Church.

 

[guanophore]

you mean everyone who preachs Christ? everyone who condemns the CC and preaches against the CC? so they keep people away from teh Church? are these all Christ’s Church? the ones who says to the people that the CC is the whore of Babylon? they all preach Christ. they call themselves christians, dont they?

how is your logic that the Church is all Christians?

Not all who profess belief in Christ and preach Christ, even those who are very fervent in their faith, are properly catechized. Many faithful evangelicals who preach Christ have been misinformed about the Catholic Church.

The Church contains all those who are members of Christ. There will be some very appalled Protestants who will find that Catholics are members of the One Body, the Church.

you should hear father Corapi on this one.

Fr, Corapi Rocks!

Do you think he does not accept protestants as true Christians?

just tell me how is the HS who these so called christians says they have through the same Spirit can call the CC found by Christ whore of babylon?

Their ignorance about Catholicism does not necesssarily mean they do not love Jesus. They love only what they know, and they only know in part. We need to treat them the same way Prisca and Aquila treated Apollos.

do you think they have the HS of God?     can God call His Church whore of Babylon?

It seems you are confusing the action of the HS with the misguided attempts of individuals, darkened by sin, to follow the HS. The HS does not create division. People, however, do. Look at Saul of Tarsus! He was most eager and fervent in his faith, and expressed his zealousness for God by persecuting the Church. God was able to straighten him out.

oh yes,  Jesus said that a Kingdom divided is  a Kingdom destroyed.   can God fight against His own Kingdom?   not according to Jesus.

Are you saying that the solution is to deny what little experience of the faith they have? It seems you want to disown your own siblings, because they don’t yet know what you know.

 

[Matariel]

And the entire Christian Church is still universal. That’s what some protestants mean when they say they believe in one holy catholic church.

This goes against Catholic teaching. The one truly Christian Church is the one unifed Catholic Church, under the pastoral care of the Bishop of Rome. The Protestant denominations “are not Churches, in the proper sense”.

I think a rereading of Dominus Iesus and Mystici Corporis is in order. The Catholic Church is the sole universal Church; it is the one true Church; the Mystical Body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. Protestant denominations are man-made institutions, and not a part of the Church, with all respect to their sincerity. From the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 489. What is the Church?

A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments,

and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head *.
*

Obviously this excludes the Protestant denominations. How could they be part of the universal Church, when there is one sole universal Church, the Catholic Church?
And:

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?

A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

1.(1) Has been validly baptized;

2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and

3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

And:

Q. 513. Why must the true Church be visible?

A. The true Church must be visible because its founder, Jesus Christ, commanded us under pain of condemnation to hear the Church; and He could not in justice command us to hear a Church that could not be seen and known.

Q. 514. What excuses do some give for not becoming members of the true Church?

A. The excuses some give for not becoming members of the true Church are:

1.(1) They do not wish to leave the religion in which they were born.

2.(2) There are too many poor and ignorant people in the Catholic Church.

3.(3) One religion is as good as another if we try to serve God in it, and be upright and honest in our lives.

 

[guanophore]

Yeah, but the Protestant denominations, as institutions, are not part of the Mystical Body of Christ, which subsists in the one Catholic Church. In other words, baptized Protestants are in communion with the Mystical Body in a severely impaired way; but they are in communion *in spite *of their Protestantism, and because Baptism is a *Catholic *sacrament of the *Catholic *Church.

The Mystical Body is the invisible Body, all who are members of Christ. Only He knows who they are, because only He knows those that are His.

Denominations are not members of His body, but persons within them are. Not all Protestants are joind in a “severely impaired” manner. In fact, I have met many Protestants on these threads that are more Catholic than most Catholics I know.

Yes, they are joined to the mystical body in spite of the errors in doctrine to which they cling. Part of the mission of CAF is to bridge and heal the imperfect joining, so that we can indeed be that ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH that Christ founded. It is by our love for each other that the world will know HIm, and in our unity the best witness is found.

 

[Matariel]

The Mystical Body is the invisible Body, all who are members of Christ. Only He knows who they are, because only He knows those that are His.

Denominations are not members of His body, but persons within them are.

Exactly. If they are part of the Catholic Church, even while they are unknowing, it is in spite of their Protestantism.

In fact, I have met many Protestants on these threads that are more Catholic than most Catholics I know.

Without the Sacramental life of the one Church? I don’t think so. They are in a true but impaired communion due to the valid,** visible**, Catholic sacrament of Baptism, but that’s it.