where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[CMatt25]

No, no. It is about the doctrine of the faith. Either you accept it all, and are Catholic in faith, or you pick and choose like Tweety does, and you are Protestant in faith. Most American Catholics are actually protestant in faith. They just don’t realize it. It is not a smorgasbord, or a democracy. The Faith is One - unified, whole, indivisible. Once you start carving out parts, you have lost Catholicity.

Ok Guan have it your way. Then you should tell the Church to stop counting most among the flock. That 52 billion or whatever it is sure would drop. Of course Benedict wanted a smaller perfect Church anyway. So there ya go.

 

[guanophore]

Ok Guan have it your way. Then you should tell the Church to stop counting most among the flock. That 52 billion or whatever it is sure would drop. Of course Benedict wanted a smaller perfect Church anyway. So there ya go.

You stand in the tradition of Apollos. He was counted among the flock. I guess what matters is what kind of sheep you want to be. Do you want to be ignorant of the Shepherds direction? Do you really want to represent your shepherd falsely?

What benefit do you get out of claiming to be part of a faith with whose tenents you are not in communion/agreement?

Adherance to right doctrine is not the same as perfection of conduct. We all fall short in many ways. Our frailties and imperfections should not be used as an excuse to misrepresent the faith.

 

[elvisman]

Infant Baptism

God calls ALL to baptism.
Circumcision in the Old Testament prefigured baptism. St. Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that was circumcision is* now* baptism.**

---

Baptism was foretold in the Old Testament. Ezekiel 36:25 states, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”**

---

When Nicodemus asked Jesus how a person is born again, he replied, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.” (John 3:5).

---

This is echoed by St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

---

When St. Peter baptized Cornelius the Centurion, he baptized his entire household including children and servants. (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14)

---

Just as with the Old Covenant and circumcision, the faith of the parents/guardians will guide the baptized child in the faith with the help of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant.

---

The Early Church Father knew FAR better than Many Protestants of today:
Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants**. **
(Commentaries on Romans 5:9 A.D. 248]).

---

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men**. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 A.D. 189]).**

---

Cyprian
**As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. ****In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. **No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 A.D. 253]).

 

[elvisman]

Now it seems you’re calling me a liar. No problem to me,only to your position. Ps 119:165 (I like the King James Version for this verse)

I’m not calling you a liar or anything else.
I am only saying that you apparently live in denial of the truth.

 

[guanophore]

You don’t know if need be He didn’t correct them or still won’t so the gates do not prevail in the end. You believe He didn’t need to nor ever will.

On the contrary, I beleive that He always has, and always will, until He comes to take up His Bride.

You are the one forwarding the notion that the apostles made mistakes, or that the Church may not be teaching what God wants. I am wondering why, since you believe He is capable of correcting this, why he has not.

Teaching error causes souls to pass through the gates of hell.

 

[elvisman]

I think Tweety is to be commended for changing her public affiliation. I think this is a sign that she is not in as much denial. It is not fair to fault her because she is Protestant in faith. She is doing the best she can with what little she has.

Actually - I was responding to CMatt25 - but I get your point about Tweety.

 

[Dokimas]

Okay - I’ll tackle these one-by-one using Scripture:
Mary’s Immaculate conception
Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Infant Baptism
Transubstantiation

Mary was Immaculately Conceived**
***The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28),***which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace."

---

Protestants often use Romans 3 to prove that Mary to disprove the idea of Mary’s sinlessness. They point to the fact that Mary MUST have been in need of a Savior because of the words she spoke in the presences of her relative, Elizabeth:
****Luke 1:46-47:
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”
This is one place where the Catholic Church agrees with the Protestant. We believe that Mary – as do all of us – needed a Savior. However, because of the special role she was about to play in salvation history, the Church teaches that Mary was saved from the time of her conception to be the fitting and proper vessel to carry God. One ancient analogy speaks of a puddle of mud that all believers fall into. God rescues us out of the mud, whereas, Mary was rescued before she fell in.

---

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by those who twist the scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

---

**Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, *"The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the *“righteous.”
St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the parade. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages.

---

The anti-Catholic will also point to Luke 2:22-24 as proof of Mary’s sinfulness:
“When the days were completed for their purification according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, just as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord,” and to offer the sacrifice of “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons,” in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord.”

---

Mary was a faithful, obedient Jewish girl that would have done everything that was required by the Law. This would include all of the dietary laws with their restrictions and observance of the Passover – just as Jesus did. It’s silly to think that she would have done otherwise.

What verse says the Mary was immaculately conceived? I can’t find one above. If it’s there could you please highlight it special. TY.​

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

5487 χαριτοω charitoo khar-ee-to’-o

from 5485; TDNT-9:372,1298; v

AV-be highly favoured 1, make accepted 1; 2

1. to make graceful
   1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

Tense-Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Voice-Passive

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, “The boy was hit by the ball,” the boy receives the action.

Same Greek word also found in:

Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made <5487> us accepted <5487> in the Beloved.

Looks like whoever the ‘us’ is, they are like Mary.

 

[CMatt25]

Watch out CM. With comments like the above you’ll be accused of either being me or being my disciple.

Oh well I’ve been accused of worse Doki.

But I still think I’ll put my trust in Him.

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

 

[guanophore]

What verse says the Mary was immaculately conceived? I can’t find one above. If it’s there could you please highlight it special. TY.

The angel greets Mary with the Title Full of Grace. She was full of grace prior to the annunciation.

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

5487 χαριτοω charitoo khar-ee-to’-o

from 5485; TDNT-9:372,1298; v

AV-be highly favoured 1, make accepted 1; 2

1. to make graceful
   1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

Tense-Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Voice-Passive

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, “The boy was hit by the ball,” the boy receives the action.

Same Greek word also found in:

Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made <5487> us accepted <5487> in the Beloved.

Looks like whoever the ‘us’ is, they are like Mary.

We can all be filled with His grace. Mary is our model in faith, as Jesus established her. None of us have been prepared before the beginning of time to bear the second person of the Trinity into this world. She had a special purpose and mission, for which she was uniquely prepared.

Would it be ok with you if Jesus sanctified His mother in grace before He drew His flesh from hers?

 

[guanophore]

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

It is not loving to confirm others in error.

 

[CMatt25]

What benefit do you get out of claiming to be part of a faith with whose tenents you are not in communion/agreement?

Guan one minute you are praying for me and want me to stay and the next minute you are questioning the benefit.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis, as to whether the Church considers Protestants, though perhaps imperfect in the eyes of the CC, still part of the body of Christ. you responded “No”.

But the catechism says something else.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, **which transcends all the natural or human limits **of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: **“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” **

**The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians **

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: **"For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. **Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. **"Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all **who through it are reborn.

And CAF Apologetics appear to disagree with you as well.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6337007

I said they are RELATED to the Church, which is the Body of Christ.
**The Church doesn’t discard them - on the contrary, she calls them to come home to the fullness of truth. ****The Church recognizes them as Christians who are separated from the Body. **Vatican II called them Christians - even brethren, but "separated" brethren according to the Decree on Ecumenism 3.

The Catechism says of those who are not in communion with the Catholic Church:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
**846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: **
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

**847 *This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church ******(Invincible Ignorance):***Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[elvisman]

What verse says the Mary was immaculately conceived? I can’t find one above. If it’s there could you please highlight it special. TY.​

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

5487 χαριτοω charitoo khar-ee-to’-o

from 5485; TDNT-9:372,1298; v

AV-be highly favoured 1, make accepted 1; 2

1. to make graceful
   1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

Tense-Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Voice-Passive

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, “The boy was hit by the ball,” the boy receives the action.

Same Greek word also found in:

Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made <5487> us accepted <5487> in the Beloved.

Looks like whoever the ‘us’ is, they are like Mary.

What verse says this explicitly? None, but Luke 1:28 absolutely says this implicitly.
Where does the bible explicitly say the Trinity?
**Answer: NOWHERE - but it IS implicitly taught.

**From the CA tract, Immaculate Conception and Assumption:
****The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” **
**Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” **

Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

 

[CMatt25]

I said they are RELATED to the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. Because you threw me when I asked if doesn’t the Church consider them, while perhaps considering imperfectly, still part of the body of Christ and you responded with a red No.

 

[Dokimas]

Infant Baptism

God calls ALL to baptism.
Circumcision in the Old Testament prefigured baptism. St. Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the* “circumcision of Christ*” (Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that was circumcision is* now* baptism.

---

Baptism was foretold in the Old Testament. Ezekiel 36:25 states,* “I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”*

---

*When Nicodemus asked Jesus how a person is born again, he replied, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.” (John 3:5). The context is being born (enter the womb again) and spiritual birth. How do you know the water there is referring to baptism? I don’t find any direct reference to baptism here so we really should just assume it’s speaking of baptism. ***
This is echoed by St. Peter in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” The verse here say there is a baptism not of water (not the removal of dirt which is done by water) but a spiritual baptism (a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus). Kind of clearly not about water baptism but of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (It’s the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus, it is the presence of Jesus by the Holy Spirit that saves us).

---

When St. Peter baptized Cornelius the Centurion, he baptized his entire household including children and servants. (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14) How old did the Bible say the children were?

---

Just as with the Old Covenant and circumcision, the faith of the parents/guardians will guide the baptized child in the faith with the help of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant. Where does it say circumsism and baptism are the same?

---

The Early Church Father knew FAR better than Many Protestants of today:
Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants**. **
(Commentaries on Romans 5:9 A.D. 248]).

---

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men**. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies** 2:22:4 A.D. 189]).

---

Cyprian
**As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. ****In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. **No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 A.D. 253]).

My daughters are here; love spending time with them so I must go for now.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, you are on fire! I haven’t even had time to have a glass of milk yet! The body of Christ is all His believers. Doesn’t the Church believe other Christians, perhaps imperfect, but still are part of the body of Christ?

Sure but we are separted. ANd we need to be together again.

 

[guanophore]

Guan one minute you are praying for me and want me to stay and the next minute you are questioning the benefit.

I pray that you will stay at CAF, learn your faith, and espouse it.

I asked you what was the benefit of calling yourself Catholic in your affiliation when you don’t espouse the Teachings of the Church.

Why don’t you identify yourself as “Rebellious Subject of the Roman Pontiff”?

 

[CMatt25]

I pray that you will stay at CAF, learn your faith, and espouse it.

I asked you what was the benefit of calling yourself Catholic in your affiliation when you don’t espouse the Teachings of the Church.

Why don’t you identify yourself as “Rebellious Subject of the Roman Pontiff”?

Oh ok I thought you were praying I would stay in the Church. No one ever called me a rebel though before that I can think of before CAF.

 

[larkin31]

That is not necessarily true. God uses both our strengths and weaknesses for His greater glory. However, in regards to being Catholic, it is all or nothing.

Another logical fallacy. Actually, the same one I mention above. Is this argument supposed to be persuasive? How, for example, can the common Catholic even KNOW all of the doctrine of the church?

 

[guanophore]

Oh ok I thought you were praying I would stay in the Church. No one ever called me a rebel though before that I can think of before CAF.

I misunderstood one of your posts, and thought you had already left the Church. I was confused why you were calling yourself Catholic.

It seems to me that most American Catholics do not take it upon themselves to learn their own faith. I was born into a Roman Catholic household with inconsistent observances. I was put through catechism, but I never learned to read Scripture, pray, or apply the precepts of my faith. My faith did not grow with me, and I did not study it. when I got to high school I rebelled, and left.

It took me 20+ years to study my way back. I did not even know I was still in rebellion against the faith when I joined CAF. Many of the members here have been kind enough to point out my errors, and I learn something new every day.