where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Mannyfit75]

Let me respond by asking my own questions of the CC followers here…​

Why does the pope have body guards?

ANSWER: Because the in recent times, there have been individuals who tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II. Not to mention the recent attacks of Pope Benedict XVI.

Wouldn’t it we quite a testamony of Jesus for the pope to be martyred if that should happen?

ANSWERS: The Pope not only runs a Catholic Church not a small sovereign country. He is not in a country that opposes him.

Peter was martyred? Did he have body guards? Paul was martryed. Did he have body guards?

Peter was martyred and was crucified upside down. Neither he and St. Peter had body guards. At that time, it was consider to be a crime to be a Christian. Have you ever considered that the culture, time, and rules back in those days were much different than today. For the most part, modern day Christians have not face the same type of persecution by a secular state except where the Christian faith has been oppressed such as communist countries and Muslim countries.

 

[Dokimas]

ANSWER: Because the in recent times, there have been individuals who tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II. Not to mention the recent attacks of Pope Benedict XVI.

ANSWERS: The Pope not only runs a Catholic Church not a small sovereign country. He is not in a country that opposes him.

Peter was martyred and was crucified upside down. Neither he and St. Peter had body guards. At that time, it was consider to be a crime to be a Christian. Have you ever considered that the culture, time, and rules back in those days were much different than today. For the most part, modern day Christians have not face the same type of persecution

 

[Mannyfit75]

then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

The historical church exist today in the Catholic Church. Jesus founded his Church upon Simon Peter. The earliest written of the word “Catholic Church was first” coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch, the disciple of St. John the Apostle. In his Epistles, he wrote, "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8.

The claimed that the Catholic Church is the historical Church of Jesus Christ is not a belief. It is historical fact. Western Civilization owe much of its existence to the Catholic Church.

 

[Dokimas]

The historical church exist today in the Catholic Church. Jesus founded his Church upon Simon Peter. The earliest written of the word “Catholic Church was first” coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch, the disciple of St. John the Apostle. In his Epistles, he wrote, "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8.

The claimed that the Catholic Church is the historical Church of Jesus Christ is not a belief. It is historical fact. Western Civilization owe much of its existence to the Catholic Church.

You must be a literalist, if as you seemed to suggest on another thread, literalists are confused. I believe you are confused about the church Jesus established.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You must be a literalist, if as you seemed to suggest on another thread, literalists are confused. I believe you are confused about the church Jesus established.

No I am not a literalist nor am I confused. I know my Christian history.

Historians affirm that the first Christian Church is the Catholic Church. Then it split into Catholic Church (Rome) and Eastern Orthodox (Constantinople) in 1054 AD. Both Church have its origins founded by the Apostles. Before 1054 AD, the whole Church was called “Catholic Church.”

The early Church was refer as Pentarchy. It consisted of the five ancient patriarchates of the undivided Church of the first millennium of her history, including the Churches of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.

These major centers of early Christianity, founded by the apostles, were looked to by their respective regions as leaders in Church life, and eventually their bishops came to be regarded as the primates of their areas. The members of the Pentarchy all participated in some form in the first eight Ecumenical Councils, from 325 to 880. Their relationship with each other, despite various periods of rivalry and dispute, was generally in terms of fraternal equality and conciliarity.

After the Ascension, the apostles dispersed to preach Christianity to the world. They each founded different patriarchates. Some of the most prominent disciples of Jesus founded the patriarchates that made up the Pentarchy.

Jerusalem - James
Antioch - Peter
Rome - Peter
Alexandria - Mark
Constantinople - Andrew

After the seventh-century Arab conquests and the Byzantine loss of the Rome-Ravenna corridor, only Constantinople’s patriarchate remained securely within the capital of the Roman Empire—the Pope at Rome was independent (see Gregory the Great), Jerusalem and Alexandria were under Muslim rule, and Antioch was on the front lines of hundreds of years of recurring border warfare between the Byzantine Empire and the Arab Caliphate. Also during the Middle Ages, the center of gravity of Christendom had shifted northward, and the majority of Christians in Muslim-ruled Egypt and Syria were Non-Chalcedonians who refused to recognize the authority of either Rome or Constantinople. Together, these historical-political changes meant that the original ideal of five great co-operating centers of administration of the whole Christian Church grew ever more remote from practical reality.

((Source: orthodoxwiki.org/Pentarchy )

The Church is Rome according to tradition was founded by Peter. By the 2nd Century the Christian Church was called “Catholic Church” by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. There are no Protestant Churches in existence back then. Protestantism came about in the 1517…

 

[AmericanJosiah]

No I am not a literalist nor am I confused. I know my Christian history.

Historians affirm that the first Christian Church is the Catholic Church.

News to me… I only know that The Catholic Church so claims that.

IMHO, the first Christian church is the one that STILL is: it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of Christians. There is no HISTORICAL evidence known to me that The Catholic Church - that specific, singular, particular, geopolitical/ intracongregational/ institutional denomination known by that legal moniker today - existed in the first century (or for centuries after that). CHRISTIANS did, of course, and thus the church that is one, holy and catholic did, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with The Catholic Church or The Syrian Orthodox Church or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The Church is Rome according to tradition was founded by Peter. By the 2nd Century the Christian Church was called “Catholic Church” by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. There are no Protestant Churches in existence back then. Protestantism came about in the 1517…

That tradition is entirely unsubstantiated. History suggests that the congregation in Rome existed for decades before even The Catholic Church claims that Peter first arrived in Rome.

No, and your performing a grammatical mistake in capitolizing “catholic” is unfortunate. The term “catholic” was then (and for centuries later) an ADJECTIVE meaning “whole” “general” “complete” “universal” “all-embracing.” It is a grammatical mistake in modern English to capitolize adjectives. Yes, we all agree, the church is one, holy and catholic. But that doesn’t make it The Catholic Church. Obviously.

.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

Where did I post that the church is invisible?

Here’s Matthew 5:14-16, “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.”

Some questions:

1. Did you know that the “you” here is a plural, personal pronoun? It’s referring to PEOPLE, not a geopolitical/ institutional/ intracongregational/ denominational entity, an “it.”

1. Did you notice it says “PEOPLE” - not denomination? How, exactly, can The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod or The United Reformed Church USA do as Jesus suggests?

I couldn’t agree more. That’s why I posted what I did.

.

You posted:
“The church is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.”

Unfortunately - this does not include every single Protestant denomination.

Who said it did? You need to read what you quote.

It only includes the Catholic Church established by Jesus - the church he identified himself with in Acts 9:4-5.

You reference Scriptures as if by doing so, your point is confirmed. And yet (is this telling?) you don’t quote them. Maybe you hope no one will look them up?

Acts 9:4-5, “He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?’ ‘Who are you, Lord?’ asked Saul. 'I am Jesus whom you persecute. Go into the city and you will be told what to do.”

Friend, I invite you to actually read the verses. Read the words. Yup. No mention of The Catholic Church. At all. About anything. In any regard. For anything. Concerning anything. Not even entirely in passing about nothing at all.

As a former Catholic, a bit of friendly advise. When you see The Catholic Church reference a verse but not quote it - that’s a big flag. READ the verse. You’ll find (well, I did) that such means the verse referenced actually doesn’t confirm the point at all.

.

 

[schaick]

No I am not a literalist nor am I confused. I know my Christian history.

Historians affirm that the first Christian Church is the Catholic Church. Then it split into Catholic Church (Rome) and Eastern Orthodox (Constantinople) in 1054 AD. Both Church have its origins founded by the Apostles. Before 1054 AD, the whole Church was called “Catholic Church.”

The early Church was refer as Pentarchy. It consisted of the five ancient patriarchates of the undivided Church of the first millennium of her history, including the Churches of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.

These major centers of early Christianity, founded by the apostles, were looked to by their respective regions as leaders in Church life, and eventually their bishops came to be regarded as the primates of their areas. The members of the Pentarchy all participated in some form in the first eight Ecumenical Councils, from 325 to 880. Their relationship with each other, despite various periods of rivalry and dispute, was generally in terms of fraternal equality and conciliarity.

After the Ascension, the apostles dispersed to preach Christianity to the world. They each founded different patriarchates. Some of the most prominent disciples of Jesus founded the patriarchates that made up the Pentarchy.

Jerusalem - James
Antioch - Peter
Rome - Peter
Alexandria - Mark
Constantinople - Andrew

After the seventh-century Arab conquests and the Byzantine loss of the Rome-Ravenna corridor, only Constantinople’s patriarchate remained securely within the capital of the Roman Empire—the Pope at Rome was independent (see Gregory the Great), Jerusalem and Alexandria were under Muslim rule, and Antioch was on the front lines of hundreds of years of recurring border warfare between the Byzantine Empire and the Arab Caliphate. Also during the Middle Ages, the center of gravity of Christendom had shifted northward, and the majority of Christians in Muslim-ruled Egypt and Syria were Non-Chalcedonians who refused to recognize the authority of either Rome or Constantinople. Together, these historical-political changes meant that the original ideal of five great co-operating centers of administration of the whole Christian Church grew ever more remote from practical reality.

((Source: orthodoxwiki.org/Pentarchy )

The Church is Rome according to tradition was founded by Peter. By the 2nd Century the Christian Church was called “Catholic Church” by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. There are no Protestant Churches in existence back then. Protestantism came about in the 1517…

Yes - Something happened to change the simple Jesus’ ***“I will build my church”**into the *** organization [Catholic Church] **a massive politial power hungry entity that tried to control states- this is where the Catholic Church failed.

BUT Jesus’ Church has never failed. Inside the ** organization [Catholic Church] ** lived Jesus’ simple *“I will build my church” *core group.

You find Jesus’ Church in *“the people called out” *not the organization. All the time the organization was seeking power there was a core group of that original Jesus’ Church remained alive.

People were fighting the power seekers the whole time, it didn’t just appear with Luther. Thankfully with Luther part of that core group from Jesus Church was able to break free form the** [organization] Catholic Church**.

Today we see the [organization] Catholic Church slowly evolving back into the fold of Jesus’ Church. Please note I am not talking about all the wonderful Christian people, Priest, Nuns, Elders, etc. just the corrupted organization.

Once we had the Scriptures written down GOD’s Plan for salvation available for all to read there was no need for the** [organization] Catholic Church**. This happened way before it was canonized- the church was simply agreeing with that which GOD has already set forth- all the Church Fathers were referencing Scripture.

That does not belittle the fact that the Catholic Church was the organization that preserved all the writtings. It is because of the Catholic Church [organization] that we have original manuscripts and Church Father’s writings.

 

[Dokimas]

No I am not a literalist nor am I confused. I know my Christian history.

Historians affirm that the first Christian Church is the Catholic Church. Then it split into Catholic Church (Rome) and Eastern Orthodox (Constantinople) in 1054 AD. Both Church have its origins founded by the Apostles. Before 1054 AD, the whole Church was called “Catholic Church.”

The early Church was refer as Pentarchy. It consisted of the five ancient patriarchates of the undivided Church of the first millennium of her history, including the Churches of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.

These major centers of early Christianity, founded by the apostles, were looked to by their respective regions as leaders in Church life, and eventually their bishops came to be regarded as the primates of their areas. The members of the Pentarchy all participated in some form in the first eight Ecumenical Councils, from 325 to 880. Their relationship with each other, despite various periods of rivalry and dispute, was generally in terms of fraternal equality and conciliarity.

After the Ascension, the apostles dispersed to preach Christianity to the world. They each founded different patriarchates. Some of the most prominent disciples of Jesus founded the patriarchates that made up the Pentarchy.

Jerusalem - James
Antioch - Peter
Rome - Peter
Alexandria - Mark
Constantinople - Andrew

After the seventh-century Arab conquests and the Byzantine loss of the Rome-Ravenna corridor, only Constantinople’s patriarchate remained securely within the capital of the Roman Empire—the Pope at Rome was independent (see Gregory the Great), Jerusalem and Alexandria were under Muslim rule, and Antioch was on the front lines of hundreds of years of recurring border warfare between the Byzantine Empire and the Arab Caliphate. Also during the Middle Ages, the center of gravity of Christendom had shifted northward, and the majority of Christians in Muslim-ruled Egypt and Syria were Non-Chalcedonians who refused to recognize the authority of either Rome or Constantinople. Together, these historical-political changes meant that the original ideal of five great co-operating centers of administration of the whole Christian Church grew ever more remote from practical reality.

((Source: orthodoxwiki.org/Pentarchy )

The Church is Rome according to tradition was founded by Peter. By the 2nd Century the Christian Church was called “Catholic Church” by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. There are no Protestant Churches in existence back then. Protestantism came about in the 1517…

You do seem to have a handle on the history you’ve been taught.

 

[Robin]

And what part of what Manning was taught do you think is not True? Historical? How does your Historical knowledge of the Christian Church differ? What have you been taught?
]Robin - of the East Douglas Hood.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You do seem to have a handle on the history you’ve been taught.

I took REL 101 in John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 1996 (before I enlisted in the US Army) and in that class the Professor the first Christians are “Catholic” and she also mentioned the East-West Schism in 1054, the Protestant Reformation in 1517. What I have been taught is from a “Non-Catholic.”

Like I said the historical Church founded by Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. That is a historical fact.

 

[Dokimas]

I took REL 101 in John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 1996 (before I enlisted in the US Army) and in that class the Professor the first Christians are “Catholic” and she also mentioned the East-West Schism in 1054, the Protestant Reformation in 1517. What I have been taught is from a “Non-Catholic.”

Like I said the historical Church founded by Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. That is a historical fact.

Like I said, “You do seem to have a handle on the history you’ve been taught.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

News to me… I only know that The Catholic Church so claims that.

She does and so does the Eastern Orthodox Church. Both Churches admit to be in full communion prior to 1054 AD. The Christian Church was one and it was called Catholic.

IMHO, the first Christian church is the one that STILL is: it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of Christians. There is no HISTORICAL evidence known to me that The Catholic Church - that specific, singular, particular, geopolitical/ intracongregational/ institutional denomination known by that legal moniker today - existed in the first century (or for centuries after that). CHRISTIANS did, of course, and thus the church that is one, holy and catholic did, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with The Catholic Church or The Syrian Orthodox Church or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The First Christian Church is called, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. There is historical evidence that shows that the Catholic Church existed since Apostolic Times. Your church originated with Martin Luther who was a former Augustinian monk (Catholic). Are you denying that Western Europe was not Catholic prior to 1517?

The following are quotes from the Early Church Fathers. They speak for themselves.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

“But for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance…these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.” Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church…” Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325).

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

 

[Mannyfit75]

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“’…thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ … It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“…folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid…” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“…Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others…” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“…the chief of the disciples…the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

 

[Mannyfit75]

Like I said, “You do seem to have a handle on the history you’ve been taught.”

and what I have been taught is the truth.

 

[Dokimas]

and what I have been taught is the truth.

Is this called, ‘blind faith’?

 

[joe370]

The historical church

exist today in the Catholic Church. Jesus founded his Church upon Simon Peter. The earliest written of the word “Catholic Church was first” coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch, the disciple of St. John the Apostle. In his Epistles, he wrote, "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8.

The claimed that the Catholic Church is the historical Church of Jesus Christ is not a belief. It is historical fact. Western Civilization owe much of its existence to the Catholic Church.

**Mannyfit75 I totally agree with you. **

 

[chaunceygardner]

Sorry for the delay in responding to Joe’s comments and questions.

Joe370:

How can I be certain that the church founded by God, which morphed into a man-made church within a few decades of the Crucifixion of our Lord - has reliably and accurately preserved for the world the correct inspired books of the holy bible?

You can’t be 100% certain, as you are placing your trust in men. And it shouldn’t matter whether something is in the Bible that shouldn’t be, or that something may have been left out. The essentials are there; we need to find them amongst the clutter.

If what you say is true, then the gates of hell have in fact prevailed against the historical church founded by God, as opposed to the man-made churches where true believers can be found - correct?

No, because the true church is immune to corruption or destruction, since it is not of human creation but divine (of God). You have it turned around.

How is it that the devil was able to vanquish the historical church founded by God, in the first century, but can’t manage to do the same to all of the churches founded by sinful, fallible people?’…He (Jesus) failed to mention that His church would cease to exist within a few decades of His death.

Because it didn’t happen; the “historical” church as proclaimed by Jesus existed from eternity, and continues to exist. It was fallible people who corrupted it, not Satan or anything else. We can take responsibility for that.

Is the HS still guiding each and every man-made church, as the HS did with the historical church founded by God?

The Holy Spirit does not guide anything physical or man made, like someone driving a car. The Spirit works within people, and has throughout history. It is up to us to be open to the Spirit working within us and in others, not to ignore or fight the Spirit due to our own selfishness, obstinacy and failure to see and feel His presence among us.

If Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit to His established historical church, until the end of all we see in the world today are churches built by men?

The churches we “see” are the churches built by men. The church that Jesus taught us about, and promised the Holy Spirit for, is not a physical church; it is contained within the souls of all those who hear His voice and respond. THAT historical church still exists, and will always exist, within Catholics, Protestants, Jews, those without a “church”, and anyone else who listens to and follows God’s word.

Jesus said to just one church: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the time.”

This is where our disagreement seems to be centered. I do not think Jesus said this to a “church”, an earthly organization. His instructions were directed to His disciples. His teachings and his promise of redemption were for all, and not “nations” as in political entities, but all peoples in all parts of the world. That should be a big clue; human churches try to restrict who can be part of the “in crowd”; Jesus instead said the Kingdom of God is open to all.

He entrusted His church leaders in His stead, (who did the same with their successors, and so on and so on) - with the mission to teach everyone to obey everything that He commanded and promised to be with His very visible fledgling church until the end of time, via the guidance of the holy spirit - right? You are really saying that this ended in just a few decades, after Jesus’ death?

No, what you describe is what actually did continue, the “visible” church with “church leaders” to command us. But that is not what Jesus gave us. He gave us more that a set of rules to follow, or requirements based on ritual and dogma, or an organization led by an elite group of men. He showed us a “way” to a more profound understanding of and to a deeper relationship with God. He taught us that the Kingdom of God is within US, NOW. That is what has been lost or obscured, for the most part.

If this historical church no longer exists, then which man-made church has the God given right to teach everyone to obey everything that Jesus commanded?

The historical church DOES exist, and is the church that Jesus revealed to us, the one contained within our souls as an unrestricted gift from God and one guided by the Holy Spirit that is continuing to inspire and instruct us, not one created or led by any human.

Could you give me the name of the man (or men) - that founded the CC, and when? I will of course do the same regarding any Protestant church, if you ask!

God, who proclaimed the catholic church, whose membership includes anyone who hears and responds to His voice acting within us and through us, is the “founder”. As Jesus taught. And for us to learn and through which to be transformed.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

.

that would have been my answer, if I was intelligent, articulate and could spell.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

This idea of an invisible church is one that is rejected by the Scriptures (Matt. 5:14-16).

Jesus made CLEAR that the church was to be ONE Body (John 17, (Eph. 4:3-6) and not many bodies making up one body. He established ONE Church and ONE Authority (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23)

thats true and I was blessed to spend part of my morning with one part of that body at a Catholic Mass and the other part of my morning with another part at my own church. I was blessed to see two groups of people who love and honor the Lord worshiping Him in spirit and in truth.