where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Dokimas]

The Mystical Body is the invisible Body, all who are members of Christ. Only He knows who they are, because only He knows those that are His.

Denominations are not members of His body, but persons within them are. Not all Protestants are joind in a “severely impaired” manner. In fact, I have met many Protestants on these threads that are more Catholic than most Catholics I know.

Yes, they are joined to the mystical body in spite of the errors in doctrine to which they cling. Part of the mission of CAF is to bridge and heal the imperfect joining, so that we can indeed be that ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH that Christ founded. It is by our love for each other that the world will know HIm, and in our unity the best witness is found.

I may have trouble understanding this post or I may have the wrong Guanophore in mind but the wonderful message of this post doesn’t seem to be quite what the Guanophore I remember communicating with.

 

[Loboto-Me]

My biggest worry for them is that although they may have received the sacrament of baptism, they do not receive the other sacraments that will actually help save them in the end… eucharist, confession. They fool themselves by convoluting the scriptures and deny themselves confession! Such a tragedy!

 

[guanophore]

This goes against Catholic teaching. The one truly Christian Church is the one unifed Catholic Church, under the pastoral care of the Bishop of Rome.

I dont think it goes against Catholic teaching. The Church teaches that there is One Body, One Bride, and One Church. All who are validly baptized are members of her. She is universal (the same everywhere). Granted, there are a lot of non-Catholics that would be offended to know they are considered members of the Catholic Church.

All of Christendom is under the care of the successor of Peter, whether they know it, accept it, or not. Even most of those so called American Catholics are just as much rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff as our separated brethren.

The Protestant denominations “are not Churches, in the proper sense”.

No, but members of them that are united to Christ in his death and resurrection through baptism are therefore members of the universal and mystical body of Christ.

the Mystical Body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church.

yes, but the mystical body of Christ is not limited to the visible Catholic Church.

Obviously this excludes the Protestant denominations. How could they be part of the universal Church, when there is one sole universal Church, the Catholic Church?

It is ther people who are part of the universal Church, not the denomination to which they belong.

It seems important to you to focus on the separation, rather than what unites.

 

[Dokimas]

My biggest worry for them is that although they may have received the sacrament of baptism, they do not receive the other sacraments that will actually help save them in the end… eucharist, confession. They fool themselves by convoluting the scriptures and deny themselves confession! Such a tragedy!

So the Bible errs when it says the only Name God has given by with we are to be saved if Jesus??? There are other names: confession, eucharist,baptism, etc.

 

[guanophore]

Without the Sacramental life of the one Church? I don’t think so. They are in a true but impaired communion due to the valid,** visible**, Catholic sacrament of Baptism, but that’s it.

Oh yes. A Protestant who is walking within the light of the revelation given to him, even without the sacraments, has the potential to a better life of holiness than a so called Catholic who is in rebellion against the teachings of the Church, and partakes of the Sacrament in an unworthy manner as a result.

All one need do is observe the very short lines outside the confessional in any Latin parish, and compare them to the very long lines at communion to realize that the vast majority in attendance are in a state of profane rebellion. If those who claimed to be Catholic actually behaved according the the teachings of the Church, America would look very different today. Where is the salt and light? It has lost it’s flavor,a nd the lamp is under the bushel.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Actually the “err” is in your understanding. Jesus also asked us to do certain things which includes confession, eucharist. This is the reason that we fear for you guys, the picking and choosing of certain scripture and leaving what you (plural) think doesn’t “apply” out, or convoluting it so that it does apply. This is the reason that the CC is needed, so that nothing is left out, so that the context of all scripture is understood properly.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Oh yes. A Protestant who is walking within the light of the revelation given to him, even without the sacraments, has the potential to a better life of holiness than a so called Catholic who is in rebellion against the teachings of the Church, and partakes of the Sacrament in an unworthy manner as a result.

All one need do is observe the very short lines outside the confessional in any Latin parish, and compare them to the very long lines at communion to realize that the vast majority in attendance are in a state of profane rebellion. If those who claimed to be Catholic actually behaved according the the teachings of the Church, America would look very different today. Where is the salt and light? It has lost it’s flavor,a nd the lamp is under the bushel.

I have to agree with you 100% here. Being catholic has almost become a birthright rather than a choice . It seems many catholics have no desire to really learn what being catholic is anymore… so they often turn to protestant churches because it’s easy. Case in point… my own children (but the fault lies in me when I was raising them)

 

[guanophore]

I may have trouble understanding this post or I may have the wrong Guanophore in mind but the wonderful message of this post doesn’t seem to be quite what the Guanophore I remember communicating with.

That is because, the last thread we were on, we were on opposite sides of the debate!

 

[guanophore]

My biggest worry for them is that although they may have received the sacrament of baptism, they do not receive the other sacraments that will actually help save them in the end… eucharist, confession. They fool themselves by convoluting the scriptures and deny themselves confession! Such a tragedy!

Certainly so, but pursuading people to enter further into grace is not facilitated by denying the grace that has already been received as valid. We are members one of another.

 

[guanophore]

So the Bible errs when it says the only Name God has given by with we are to be saved if Jesus??? There are other names: confession, eucharist,baptism, etc.

Certainly not! It was He, the author and finisher of our faith, that instituted confession, eucharist, baptism, holy orders, marriage, annointing with oil, etc.

Do you think because he put mud on the eyes of the blind man, that the blind man believed the mud gave him sight?

 

[Dokimas]

That is because, the last thread we were on, we were on opposite sides of the debate!

I really love and appreciate locking arms with fellow Christians for the precious souls of this lost and dieing world. God bless you, brother and friend in Christ.

 

[Dokimas]

Certainly not! It was He, the author and finisher of our faith, that instituted confession, eucharist, baptism, holy orders, marriage, annointing with oil, etc.

Do you think because he put mud on the eyes of the blind man, that the blind man believed the mud gave him sight?

Response to first sentence: Agreed; that’s not what the original poster I was making comment to seem to be saying.

Response to question: no; interesting note (at least to me) that seems Jesus didn’t heal each blind person the same way - says to me God WILL NOT be put in a box by us. The common Thread to each healing was Jesus the Object of as well as the Author and Finisher of our faith.

 

[Matariel]

It seems important to you to focus on the separation, rather than what unites.

No, it’s not that; it’s just that some Catholics and non-Catholics nowadays try to whitewash the Catholic dogma that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

Whitewashing that Catholic teaching is kind of insulting to me, because it makes it appear like it made not much a difference spiritually, for me, when I converted to the Catholic Faith. It was one of the best decisions of my life, if not THE best decision.

Afterall, if it was fine and dandy for me to remain Protestant, I would have done so. But truth compelled me to enter the one Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, because, as the Catechism says, it is “the universal sacrament of salvation for all mankind”.

 

[adrift]

Re-read the questions I question the infallibility of certain things not about infallibility itself.

You are building a straw man. Those things you mention have nothing to do with infallibility.

I know what infallible is, can’t be wrong, but only God is infallible.

This is a secular definition. A Catholic definition is on Faith and Morals only. This is not a complete definition and I don’t mean it to be.

But isn’t your history from infallible men?
Isn’t your doctrine or some of it come from history that has been interperated by or made up by so called infallilbe men?

The answer is no. History is not covered by infallibility. History is not faith and morals.

If you can’t get a simple thing like church history ie: the mane of the first church, correct then how do we know that your doctrine is correct like you want us to believe.

The early Christian faith was sometimes called That Way, (Acts 19:1,9,23; 24:22) and the church its adherents were also called Nazarenes, (Acts 24:5) evidently after the city of Nazareth where Jesus lived. Probably close to A.D 50 the Book of Acts (Acts:11:26) records that “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” The title Christian is also used in Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, and likely is referred to in James 2:7, “Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?”

I believe others have said that around 101 that the name Catholic for the Church was first used.
It isn’t that they didn’t get it right because what they said was right just not completed

The question was where did I get my facts and I stated where but you won’t say anything about where I got it from probably because it came from a Roman Catholic.

I never saw this question. It is a large thread and it would have been easily overlooked. So point me to it.
I did see that Elvisman challenged you on a copy and paste for which you challenged him on his copy and past. The difference that I saw between the two of you was that he documented his cut and past where you didn’t. It is easy to post and forget to give due credit but when you are called on it, just apologize and give the appropriate citation or link.
Instead you challange my knowledge of infalliblity. Why not correct the one who gave me the info?

Instead you challange my knowledge of infalliblity. Why not correct the one who gave me the info?

Because you are building a straw man and no one gave you incorrect information.

 

[guanophore]

Well according to rinnie, a Roman Catholic here on the forum, said it was called the Christian Church, the according to another Catholic here it was the Way then according to another source here it is the Catholic Church. See 3 different answers from 3 different sources.

Do you not think that all three of these are true? The NT attests that the disciples were called “christians”, describes the Church as catholic, and calls lifestyle “the way”.

I know no one is infallible thats what I’v been saying all along. But I’m glad that you can give the names of who founded what church, does that make you more special then others. I really don’t care who founded what church I know I follow God and the name of a church matters not. Jesus said follow me not follow the CC. So I follow Jesus.

It is called the “gift” of infallibility because humans do not have the capacity to be infallible without God’s intervention. However, when He works through people, we are capable of infallible acts. The writing of the Scriptures is a good example of this, as well as numerous miracles in the NT.

Do you not think that Jesus founded One Church? Do you think he was not serious about his unity prayer?

I got it from God like all the others have. Where did the CC get if from, lets see from the same one I got it from God. Why does it matter to you any way? Is it hurting you some how or some way?

I think that everyone’s separate ideas about authority is one of the major sources of division in the Body. I think that Jesus was given all authority, and that he gave it to His Apostles, and they passed it on to others. To the extent that we are all in unity with Him, we each have exercise of some of that authority.

I think the Reformation was largely spawned over authority issues, and the abuse of authority.

I also think that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura perpetuates people’s misperceptions about authority.

 

[guanophore]

forgive us, but as Catholics we dont understand how a person can be ordained wihtout the successors of the Apostles. i know you read the Bible but can the Bible ordain people? again i mean no offense to you.

I think that it is possible for Catholics to understand this. We have the Scriptures that can shed light:

2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

There are many self appointed people that not only are disguised as servants of God, but they believe that they are called of God.

There are also those who have been appointed properly, such as Tetzel, who abused their authority and brought disgrace and damage to the Body.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

The Catholic Church is not immune to these by any means.

 

[guanophore]

None taken. No matter what I say about me being ordained the CC will not accept. So I really don’t think we should make a big deal out of this. I dedicate my life to doing God work. Whether anyone accepts it or not really don’t matter.

Actually, the Catholic Church does recognize and affirm those called to ministry among our separated brethren. Some who have been commissioned outside the Apostolic succession are received into the Church through the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

A person may know they are called to ministry to the Body, but through no fault of their own, not know that one is to be commissioned by the successors of the Apostles. Most of our separated brethren do not know they are separated from the Apostolic Succession. The Church does not hold this lack of knowledge against people.

And, some of the most effective ministers of the Word come through our evangelical brethren returning home.

 

[guanophore]

God accepts you Rev. and thats the one that counts.

He is the One that counts, it is true Tweety. All authority was given to Christ, and he sent those He ordained in that same authority. They, in their turn, taught the gospel to faithful men who were able to teach others also, and that is the Apostolic succession. Those who took it upon themselves to go out on their own were not recognized as having apostolic authority, and the faithful were instructed by the Apostles to reject them.

 

[tweetymom]

Tweey my love, do you see what I have been trying to tell you. God gives us all different gifts. See how I agree with you yes, you can read the bible, we all can. But just because we are baptised ad have the gift of the HS we cannot interpret scripture we must listen to what Jesus taught us through the Church. We must have the scripture UNITE us in Christ not separate us. So the Church must teach us all the same thing, so when we do read the bible we can all be on the same page.

Look I believe in the Bible 100%.We cannot interpert because the CC says we can’t. Now for you if that is what you believe I’m happy for you. I do not believe that and that’s that. God Bless you.

 

[guanophore]

Your religion says “Catholic convert”. But both paragraphs are against Catholic teaching. In the Catholic view, all Protestant sects, the Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox churches together do not comprise the Mystical Body of Christ. The Mystical Body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, as the Catholic Church is the original and true Church of Christ.

He is asking a question, not contradicting anything. The mystical body of Christ is much larger than all those who call themselves Christians. It contains all those who belong to Christ, and therefore, extends beyond the boundaries of all the worlds’ religions. Only He knows those who are HIs. This is why we are commanded not to judge, since it is not we who determine who is a member of His Body, who is in good standing with Him, and who is at enmity with Him. He alone judges the heart.

The Second Vatican Council, in n. 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, stated that the Church founded by Christ, “constituted and organized as a society in this present, world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although (licet) many elements of sanctification and truth can be found outside her structure; such elements, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic unity”.

This is a reference to the VISIBLE church, not the Mystical Body.