where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[elvisman]

Your previous words, not mine, to another fellow Catholic of ours:

“educate yourself on the beliefs and doctrines of the Catholic Church - or cease identifying yourself as Catholic.”

I was responding to your post #902.

You are both saying many things that simply are NOT Catholic beliefs.

My statement was that you should take a good hard look at what the Church teaches and either accept it or reject it.

 

[Roblox84]

In that case EVERYBODY has everlasting life. Come in heaven and some in hell. There is no argument there, but that’s a cop out. We must endure to the end to be saved and to follow the Authority he left - to whom he gave* HIS* authority in heaven and earth.

---

Simply believing in Christ is not enough and the Scriptures are painfully clear on this. Your problem is that you refuse to see the CONTEXT of what Scripture is saying. There are verses that say all you need do is believe or call on the name of Jesus to be saved – and there are others, that when read in CONTEXT fill in the blanks.

---

Like I said before – you need to read these in CONTEXT with the other verses that say much more to understand the message of the Gospel.

---

Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-22****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

---

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord**" shall enter the kingdom of heaven.**

---

**Matthew 10:22 - **All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

---

**Luke 12:46 - **The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

---

**1 Timothy 4:1 - **The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

---

**2 Peter 3:17 - **Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Precisely, I don’t think anyone on this forum from the protestant side mentioned where that everlasting life would be, they just quoted the portion of the bible that states we receive everlasting life. So I was just trying to clear that up, because in one way or another, we all get everlasting life.

 

[elvisman]

I guess I always just saw them as invincibly ignorant. To me, if a person blows of another teaching due to years of indoctrination in their own teachings I would think that person would be invincibly ignorant. It’s kind of off the subject, but it’s just like telling some American folk about how their health care sucks. Yet I would say more then 50% of Americans would differ on this. I see these people as ignorant because no kinds of evidence, financial paperwork, word of mouth, will stand in their way of changing their attitude. So in the end they will still be cared for, it will just cost more or they will just have to give up more in return.

The Church teaches that if they do not know the truth "through no fault of their own" they may be invincibly ignorant.
There is a large contingent of former Catholics who left that truth and joined Protestant sects.

Also it is difficult in t****his day of instant information to be invincibly ignorant about the truth. Ignorance is one thing - invincible ignorance is quite another. Many people choose to be ignorant becuse it’s easier to live with their choices. That is not invincible ignorance.

 

[elvisman]

Precisely, I don’t think anyone on this forum from the protestant side mentioned where that everlasting life would be, they just quoted the portion of the bible that states we receive everlasting life, but it didn’t say where that everlasting life would be. So I was just trying to clear that up, because in one way or another, we all get everlasting life.

We sure do!

 

[rinnie]

Just a little food for thought. Long before my Dad died he told me this story.

He said you are either A Roman Catholic or you aren’t. He said you are either hot or cold. You cannot be lukewarm. He said as you get older and think for yourself you will see what you are. You are either Hot and stand by the teachings of the Pope and the RCC or you are Cold you will reject him and the Church.

I now see what he means, and I for one am not just hot, I am on fire!!!

I trust the Pope with all my heart and soul and I will believe all he has to teach me until the day I die. I have gotten into the teachings of the Church pretty deep now for the last 4 years. And I will tell you one thing, there is not one teaching that the RCC has taught me that has ever gone in direct conflict with the word of God. ITs always in line. I thank God for the Pope and the RCC. I will stand by the RCC and the teachings forever. And I will thank Jesus everyday for leaving me the RCC the Living Christ to lead me!!!

 

[CMatt25]

just Faith in Christ is what makes us One? where is that in the Bible? show us, please.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh:

15Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself **into one **new man, making peace;

16And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself.

19Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but **you are fellow citizens **with the saints, and the domestics of God

Rom 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 

[rinnie]

I guess it depends on how you look at it though. I think just believing in Jesus gives you eternal life because even the demons believe and these demons do have everlasting life. So I guess it just matters what kind of everlasting life you want. Do you want to follow the doctrine of God, or the doctrine of demons? So either way, the protestants are correct because only letting Christ into you heart and believing will give you eternal life of some sort, don’t you think?

Well Roblox you have to think what Jesus said. And he said whoever believes in me will keep my word and will have eternal life. He said whoever does not keep my word will have eternal death. That is hell. Eternal death is total separation from Christ. Eternal death is caused by sin. Mortal sin.

So to say to believe means eternal life, is just a half truth is it not? Jesus left us some rules and commandments to follow. Don’t ya think?

 

[Roblox84]

Well Roblox you have to think what Jesus said. And he said whoever believes in me will keep my word and will have eternal life. He said whoever does not keep my word will have eternal death. That is hell. Eternal death is total separation from Christ. Eternal death is caused by sin. Mortal sin.

So to say to believe means eternal life, is just a half truth is it not? Jesus left us some rules and commandments to follow. Don’t ya think?

Sure, but you are still existing eternally somewhere. And also the CC isn’t the one teaching these half truths.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh:

15Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself **into one **new man, making peace;

16And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself.

19Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but **you are fellow citizens **with the saints, and the domestics of God

Rom 12:5 [SIGN]So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

[/SIGN]

Correct Cmatt but how can we be one in Christ if we are separted in one Body. One Body means Christ the CC The Body has many members but many members make up only one body do you not agree? So ONE BODY is what unites us with Christ does it not. And is not the CC the body of CHrist?

 

[CMatt25]

I’m not playing semantics. You have never once heard me say a baptized Catholic was not Catholic. But at least I think we know Elvis knows this now too. Peace.

 

[rinnie]

Sure, but you are still existing eternally somewhere. And also the CC isn’t the one teaching these half truths.

Agreed on both accounts. But is existing mean eternal LIFE in Christ. Existing does not mean eternal life. Eternal life means living with Christ for eternity do you not agree.

Eternal death means existing without Christ!

Remember eternal life is living in the LIGHT of Christ.
Eternal darkness is living in the darkness out of the light of Christ!

 

[CMatt25]

[SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

Correct Cmatt but how can we be one in Christ if we are separted in one Body. One Body means Christ the CC The Body has many members but many members make up only one body do you not agree? So ONE BODY is what unites us with Christ does it not. And is not the CC the body of CHrist?

Rinnie, you are on fire! I haven’t even had time to have a glass of milk yet! The body of Christ is all His believers. Doesn’t the Church believe other Christians, perhaps imperfect, but still are part of the body of Christ?

 

[Dokimas]

If I misread forgive me. But saying that Jesus Christ being the CC is a self-serving statement, maybe I took it wrong. So lets start over you explain to me what you mean by that

Jesus Christ said he was the CHurch not us

I am aware of the fact that jesus is the Head of the Church. I’d love to see the verse(s) that says He is the church. I understand He is in each member of the church, but you and I aren’t Him.​

As far are a self -serving statement: any statement from a person or organization that is about their personal authority over someone or group is self-serving. Much, almost all, of what you could say about the church Jesus founded I’d agree with. Where I disagree is with your conclusions because I don’t think a straight forward understanding of the Bible draws the same conclusions.

 

[CMatt25]

Ok so hopefully everyone can now stop saying Catholics should stop calling themselves Catholics. Peace!

 

[Roblox84]

Agreed on both accounts. But is existing mean eternal LIFE in Christ. Existing does not mean eternal life. Eternal life means living with Christ for eternity do you not agree.

Eternal death means existing without Christ!

Remember eternal life is living in the LIGHT of Christ.
Eternal darkness is living in the darkness out of the light of Christ!

I completely agree with you. I guess I was just trying to distinguish the definition of eternal life between the two denominations.

 

[Dokimas]

If it isn’t the Catholic Church - which Church did Jesus give authority to.
Even the most respected Protestant scholars will tell you that it was the Catholic Church. They will tell you that until the 4th century - the Catholic Church WAS the only Christian Church.
Where do you get your proof that it wasn’t the Catholic Church?

The Church in general? What does that mean?

I know exactly what that means.
When people say, “only God knows” - they excuse themselves from what they are supposed to know from the revealed Word of God.

What protestant scholars are you reading?​

Matching some of your doctrines with what the Bible says is my evidence that the CC in not the whole of the church Jesus founded.​

The church in general is the church in whole. It includes all true believers. It is not one church like the CC (many of her member are part of the true universal church), but as I’ve said, all true believers.​

Saying you understand exactly what is meant is one thing and actually understanding is quite often another thing. (1 Cor 8:2)​

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Loboto-Me]

. Where I disagree is with your conclusions because I don’t think a straight forward understanding of the Bible draws the same conclusions.

Exactly, because the Bible isn’t meant to be interpreted as straight forward. The Church has had to have scholars interpret it properly in order to have a proper understanding of the Bible.

Straightforward interpretation leads to different conclusions as evidenced by the different conclusions in “protestant” denominations.

 

[Dokimas]

If by defending Christ’s pilgrim Church is "hurting" anyone - let me be guilty because the only thing being hurt here is pride and blind hatred.

It’s the unkind, condescending, holier than though, I understand it all manner in which you speak to us.

 

[Dokimas]

It seems no matter how much scripture that is given to show where the catholic church is coming from, it will never be accepted. They are happy with the limited truth they have.
Authority seems to be the biggest problem for them which keeps them from seeing the whole truth. I’ve been up against this mind set for many years and no matter what scriptures i show them it never sinks in. I’ve learned through the years the only thing you can do is pray that the holy spirit will open their hearts to the truth.

Matthew

When will you understand it’s not the Bible verses you and others use that are rejected. They are wonderful verses. It’s the interpretation that is questioned in light of the rest of the Bible.

 

[Roblox84]

I am aware of the fact that jesus is the Head of the Church. I’d love to see the verse(s) that says He is the church. I understand He is in each member of the church, but you and I aren’t Him.​

As far are a self -serving statement: any statement from a person or organization that is about their personal authority over someone or group is self-serving. Much, almost all, of what you could say about the church Jesus founded I’d agree with. Where I disagree is with your conclusions because I don’t think a straight forward understanding of the Bible draws the same conclusions.

I am somewhat confused about this because I was under the impression that up until the reformation there was only one christian church, but I maybe wrong. So technically Luther was the founder of the protestant faith, so wouldn’t protestants be trying to put their authority over the first christian church and the first christian church is just trying to protect its original teachings that were taught by the apostles? I don’t really understand other viewpoints because first of all God would not separate the original church so I don’t want to hear any of that bull ****.