where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Loboto-Me]

The disciples walk away from Jesus:

John 6:53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us
his flesh to eat?

56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who
can hear it?

67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

Corinthians:

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the
death of the Lord, until he come.
27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord
unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the
chalice.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself,
not discerning the body of the Lord.
30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

 

[guanophore]

it depends on the church. Lutherans for instance believe they receive the Lord in body and blood. Others do this more symbolically though Christ can be present for real in spirit. All do so in remembrance of Him and in remembrance of what He sacrificed for us all.

It seems as though you are equilibrilizing here. You are equating what Christ established with the memorial meals established by men. Jesus wants us to celebrate this memorial the way He established that it should be done, not in the way that humans invent for ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

No one said she was “full of sin”? Why are you twisting my question into a statement in the extreme?

I noted that “blessed is” is a phrase used nearly 50 times in the NT, including in reference to sinners. I don’t see from a scriptural perspective why Mary is called “without sin”. She is “blessed,” sure. But there are many sinners and saints who are “blessed” in the NT.

It is not possible to be “full of grace” and have any room for sin. I agree with you on the notion of the word “blessed”. Mary was blessed in a way that no other human can be, but what made her pure was being full of grace.

 

[CMatt25]

I have read on another thread some quotes from Popes that seem to contradict these paragraphs. which has more authority? Or am I missunderstanding one of them?

I truly wish I could help you more with this my friend. But I’ll probably only be accused of producing bad fruit or not being in the body of Christ or something. But I don’t know if the Popes do not understand the catechism or if you are misunderstanding one of them.

 

[guanophore]

What in the world is someone like that teaching R.C.I.A.? That makes no sense at all.

I suspect that her knowledge of Scripture and her understanding of the nature of Christian ministry outstrips most people in her parish. She is very fervent and dedicated about her faith, and an excellent witness of devotion. It seems that her pastor has an agreement with her so that she will not foment her anti-Catholic attitudes when she is teaching.

 

[adrift]

Not at all. And yes if does make Catholic’s look bad when they say they are Catholic but then they do not agree with all of the teachings of the Church, because that is not a true Catholic. A true Catholic obey and accept ALL of the teaching’s of the Church. They can not pick and choose what they want to accept and not accept. If so that would make them protestant

RIGHT ON:thumbsup:

 

[guanophore]

Obviously you do. But why are you making this in a sweeping absolute condemnation: “does not understand” and “does not practice”. The suggestion from this is that you are claiming that anything less than 100% knowledge and 100% orthodoxy makes the CC “look bad.” If this is, indeed, what you mean, then I hope that you are not in charge of any actual parishioners. Absolutists rarely work out well in the long run, either for institutions or for fellow parishioners (in my experience).

Either the person has the commitment and diligence to learn and practice their faith, or they don’t. The lukewarm He will spit out of His mouth.

What do you think it was that made the Bereans noble?

 

[CMatt25]

One must make a distinction between purity of doctrine (the faith) and moral purity. A person can espouse purity of faith yet fall short in practice. The Pope is saying that the church will be more pure if those in it actualy adhere to it’s teachings. If all cafeteria Catholics realized that they are really no longer Catholic, but Protestant, then the Church would be much smaller. They would stop calling themselves Catholic when they reject the Catholic faith. In fact, the Catholic Church is not nearly as large as all those who are baptized and labeled Catholic, because the majority of them reject the doctrines of the faith. Christ wants purity of faith, which is the narrow way, not the wide and easy. Few people find it, according to Him.

How does one actually adhere yet fall short all at the same time? And why does the Church not listen to you and not label Catholic all those you consider not Catholic?

 

[CMatt25]

It seems as though you are equilibrilizing here. You are equating what Christ established with the memorial meals established by men. Jesus wants us to celebrate this memorial the way He established that it should be done, not in the way that humans invent for ourselves.

Guan, Rinnie asked why they have communion and I simply answered her.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Take me for instance, I adhere to the faith and continually fall short because of my own failures, not because of the failures of the Church. I can read what CCC says and adhere to it, it’s all there for me, but through my own failures I don’t always do what should be done either by choice or by mistake, although I want to… so I fall short all the time.

Also, when I fall short because of being stubborn or not agreeing because of misunderstanding, I’m still adhering because I don’t advertise or promote what I disagree with. I keep trying to get a better understanding of it, and if I still don’t agree (which hasn’t happened yet) I shut up and leave it to the HS to sort out for me.

 

[adrift]

. But communion (or the Eucharist) is as Jesus said, ‘in remembrance of Me’.​

You have left out two words DO THIS in remembrance of ME. What is the this. This is My Body and This is My Blood

 

[guanophore]

Now as for me I have someone saying I am not Catholic because I produce bad fruit.  :confused:  :shrug:  Rinnie said in post 1222 if we produce bad fruit it makes us all look bad.

One who is producing no fruit, or bad fruit, is falling short of Catholicity.

Do you not agree that producing bad fruit, while at the same time calling oneself a Christian, does not produce scandal to the Body of Christ?

Then in post 1230 she says a Catholic obeys everything or else they are protestant. I am actually astonished she would say such a thing.

Most American Catholics that disobey the teachings of the church have never studied them. Especially with regard to contraception, they don’t know why the Church holds to this teaching. They just think that the Church is backward, and behind the times. If a person were to study and understand the Teaching then still disobey it, then one has become a Protestant (rebellious subject of the Roman Pontiff )

Most American Catholics do not see that using a “cafeteria” approach is a denial of Catholicity.

And now I’m also just sitting here wondering if Rinnie means all Catholics, even including some in the hierarchy who have truly produced bad fruit and made us look bad over the centuries, are protestant?

Teachers are judged with greater strictness, and priests have been afforded the training to know better. Such persons are wolves among the sheep.

I thought they were still Catholic

This would boil down to how you define “Catholic”. If it means Catholic in faith and practice, then no.

though and I know BG is part of the body of Christ but Rinnie maybe can help us understand.  She obviously knows everyone's fruit and what that makes them.  :shrug:

Yes, what my Reformed brethren call “fruit inspector”! We shall know them by their fruits, but that does not mean that we need to give all our attention to inspecting fruits in order to pass judgement. Most of us have our hands full inspecting our own tree.

 

[CMatt25]

Take me for instance, I adhere to the faith and continually fall short because of my own failures, not because of the failures of the Church. I can read what CCC says and adhere to it, it’s all there for me, but through my own failures I don’t always do what should be done either by choice or by mistake, although I want to… so I fall short all the time.

Also, when I fall short because of being stubborn or not agreeing because of misunderstanding, I’m still adhering because I don’t advertise or promote what I disagree with. I keep trying to get a better understanding of it, and if I still don’t agree (which hasn’t happened yet) I shut up and leave it to the HS to sort out for me.

Ok so you’re like the rest of us. Human. But once the HS sorted it out for you to your understanding, you proclaim what the HS has told you according to your understanding.

 

[guanophore]

Rinnie said:

[SIGN]The Catholic Church IS JESUS CHRIST. So if you can show me where you can gain salvation outside of the CC (Jesus Christ) do so. If you cannot which you cannot do, then you cannot dispute the words of the Pope.

Saul persecuting the CC. Saul Saul why are you persecuting me, WHO are you??? IT is me JESUS. Saul was persecuting the CC!!![/SIGN]

Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”​

Seems according to you that name if the CC? Read carefully what you said and match it with Act 4:12. They don’t match, IMO.

What do you think Jesus meant when He told Saul of Tarsus “It is Jesus, whom you are persecuting”?

 

[guanophore]

Wow then it seems everyone against her here would say God bless her for her good works and good fruits!

I certainly do. That does not mean that I do not also confront her when she maligns the Catholic faith, which she does with great regularity. If you watch her posts, you will note that she applauds every anti-Catholic post that is made, and affirms those that promote the non-Catholic position.

This has not been a problem since she changed her affiliation, because being a Protestant here, and engaging in such behavior, does not cause a scandal.

 

[adrift]

Originally Posted by Carlan View Post
Transubstantiation , the most important miracle of all.

I have never heard this claim before.

Is this why people of history have killed each other over it?

Read John 6; 25 and following, the Didcourse on the Bread of Life, Pray it until you get it.God be with you. Carlan

I asked about the sinless and perfect Mary. John 6 has nothing in it about Mary.

Did you forget this post?

 

[guanophore]

And if I come back and said God told me the CC is wrong, will you tell me it was the devil speaking to me?

I suppose it is possible. It could just as well be your own inner avoidance of the Teachings, a pastor or teacher who is anti-Catholic, or something else you read or heard.

Satan wants to divide, separate, and destroy. Ultimately, all that separates us from one another serves his purpose.

Sounds like what the Mormons do. The take a person to James 1:5 and say to pray this verse and ask for wisdom and you’ll see that Joseph Smith was correct.

I agree. I think that, without the attitude of the Bereans, such an exercise will not likely yield a beneficial result.

 

[guanophore]

This woman, perfected and “full” of God’s “grace” is–as it states–“troubled”?

But thanks for the citation. I don’t see this as sinless perfection at all, but rather a troubled human in communion with God.

Perfect by grace is not the same as perfect in nature.

Being troubled is not a sin. If it were, then it would have to be said that Jesus was a sinner too.

Communion with God is much more intimate and pure when one is not hindered by sin, or the tendency to sin.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Ok so you’re like the rest of us. Human. But once the HS sorted it out for you to your understanding, you proclaim what the HS has told you according to your understanding.

I proclaim to my understanding yes, but never knowingly out of line with what the CC would have me proclaim because I know that it IS a misunderstanding on MY part. In other words, I wait out the misunderstanding in hopes that the HS will lead me to the truth of my misunderstanding.

How do I know it’s the HS leading me? I never know for sure because I can’t interpret it by myself, so I have to test it with what I’ve learned to date. Sometimes the HS opens my mind and my eyes, and sometimes it’s a waiting game.

Take for example the “Second Adam that is Jesus” . I had heard this before, but for the life of me could not comprehend it. The poster (I’m sorry I forget his name ) explained it and for some reason, today I understand!

 

[adrift]

I would like to thank all of you who are praying for my former wife. She just got out of the hospital Saturday evening. Please keep her and her husband in your prayers as well as the family. Once again thanks to all of you.

I remembered her at mass this morning and put her in our prayer book so the entire congregation will be praying for her. Thank you for the up date.