where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[guanophore]

pot calling the kettle black.:bowdown2:

You changed affiliations can only be blamed on you. You should take responsibility for your own actions.

Please do not criticize Tweety for changing her affiliation. It is an action worthy **not **of blame, but of commendation! She agreed not to use that label for herself out of conciliation for those of us that were constantly offended by it. This is a case of a person giving up what she wants to do so as not to be an offense to others. I very much appreciate her flexibility in this matter, and I think it benefits all of CAF. Now, when she posts things that are not Catholic, it does not cause confusion for people coming here trying to learn about Catholicism.

 

[adrift]

What in the world is someone like that teaching R.C.I.A.? That makes no sense at all.

Matthew

Ah! But we are called uncharitable if we say so.

 

[guanophore]

In any single matter? Are you an absolutist in this regard?

In matters of faith and morals that are passed on to us by the Apostles. The Church distinguishes between matters that must be held by the faithful, and those about which one may espouse heterodoxy. It matters not whether I am an absolutist or not. The teaching of the Church is absolute.

I will confess, though, I have come a long way to get away from that cafeteria.

 

[CMatt25]

Teachers are judged with greater strictness, and priests have been afforded the training to know better. Such persons are wolves among the sheep.

This would boil down to how you define “Catholic”. If it means Catholic in faith and practice, then no.

Guan, then are telling me the priests and bishops who have disgraced our Church in the past are not Catholic either?

 

[adrift]

It is about the 5 wise virgins and the 5 unwise virgins; and it’s about the Marriage between Jesus and the Church being a future event.

An interesting interpretation. So the Church will marry Jesus sometime. Interesting. Could you elaborate a little more and Scripture, not necessary but nice

 

[guanophore]

Is that OK?

It is AWESOME, Michael.

 

[adrift]

Wow then it seems everyone against her here would say God bless her for her good works and good fruits!

Educating with falsehood is neither a good work or will it produce good fruits.

 

[guanophore]

If you’re a virgin who’s promised in mariage and suddenly you’re told that you’re going to be pregnant, wouldn’t you be troubled? Wouldn’t you wonder how is that going to happen? What will people say? I’m a VIRGIN! How could that be?

Now THAT’s “troubled”.

So the angel, in order to remove Mary’s anxiety goes on to say more… which is that the the Holy Spirit will come upon her and give her this child.

Even more so, in that Mary never intended to do the things people do to get pregnant. She had consecrated herself to God, and believed that he had receieved her gift of virginity. Therefore, it was even more confusing to hear she would be pregnant. when she said “I know not a man”, she meant that she does not live a lifestyle in which one would have intercourse. She was celibate, and intended to remain so.

 

[guanophore]

Anybody who is outside the visible Body of Christ - the CATHOLIC CHURCH - is outside of the Body of Christ.

They ARE, however related to the Body, just as anybrother or sister who disowns you.

Is that clear enough or do you require further instruction on the matter?

Elvisman, this position is not consistent with Catholic teaching. The mystical Body of Christ is much larger than the visible body, and there are many members of it that are not “visible” in the world, or the Church that is in the world. Only Christ knows those who are His.

All who are validly baptized are joined to the Head, and we are therefore all members one of another.

 

[larkin31]

Perfect by grace is not the same as perfect in nature.

Being troubled is not a sin. If it were, then it would have to be said that Jesus was a sinner too.

Communion with God is much more intimate and pure when one is not hindered by sin, or the tendency to sin.

This all sounds fine, but all the scripture states is that Mary is “blessed” (as are 40+ other Biblical figures and sinners) and that she is “full of grace” (only one Biblical version has this, actually. Not the KJV)

Most Bible’s translate Luke 1:28 as “highly favoured,” since the Greek word used, according to Strong’s Greek lexicon, is this:

Gk: charitoō

1. to make graceful
   a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings

 

[Carlan]

I’m so glad you said that. I started a post trying to convey that message, but gave up because the words eluded me (a huge problem of mine).

Being a cradle catholic isn’t always a good thing, it sometimes becomes more a matter of “ethnicity” rather than true faith. When I turned 40 I think the Holy Spirit gave me a nudge (one of several) that I finally did not ignore. I felt a need to learn what my faith was really about. I suspect many catholics grapple with some of the teachings, but they don’t have to spread what they struggle with as truth. I decided that what I didn’t understand, I’d learn through forums and other Catholic sites. Please! Some of us are in our infancy in our faith, please don’t cloud the waters with untruths. Those who don’t have the inclination to go online or don’t have the means can’t sift the wheat from the chaff. Thank God forums like this exist where someone who has an “imperfect” understanding of the faith can be corrected by several people who understand properly.

Amen! C

 

[Loboto-Me]

Even more so, in that Mary never intended to do the things people do to get pregnant. She had consecrated herself to God, and believed that he had receieved her gift of virginity. Therefore, it was even more confusing to hear she would be pregnant. when she said “I know not a man”, she meant that she does not live a lifestyle in which one would have intercourse. She was celibate, and intended to remain so.

Thank you so much for that teaching, I should have remembered that about her consecration to God. This is so true… now THAT’s TROUBLED!

 

[larkin31]

In matters of faith and morals that are passed on to us by the Apostles. The Church distinguishes between matters that must be held by the faithful,

What are these called? And where can I find them collected?

 

[guanophore]

Apparently I do not from you You can’t seem to understand in your scenerio that a brother or sister is still part of your family.

Yes, this is a bit concerning. Even estranged siblings are still siblings. Once we have been indelibly marked by the seal of the HS, we are permanently changed. Nothing can be done that will undo that seal received in baptism.

 

[CMatt25]

Elvisman, this position is not consistent with Catholic teaching. The mystical Body of Christ is much larger than the visible body, and there are many members of it that are not “visible” in the world, or the Church that is in the world. Only Christ knows those who are His.

All who are validly baptized are joined to the Head, and we are therefore all members one of another.

Thank you!

 

[larkin31]

Even more so, in that Mary never intended to do the things people do to get pregnant. She had consecrated herself to God, and believed that he had receieved her gift of virginity… She was celibate, and intended to remain so.

Wow

What Biblical passage is this from? I have never heard this claim before either.

 

[guanophore]

I truly wish I could help you more with this my friend. But I’ll probably only be accused of producing bad fruit or not being in the body of Christ or something. But I don’t know if the Popes do not understand the catechism or if you are misunderstanding one of them.

The Popes he is quoting are all before this century, and are reacting to heresies that were rampant at the time. In order to understand their statements, one must look at them in the context in which they are made. Did you read the quotes? Do you find them troublesome as well?

All these statements were made before the catechism we have now was developed.

 

[adrift]

This woman, perfected and “full” of God’s “grace” is–as it states–“troubled”?

But thanks for the citation. I don’t see this as sinless perfection at all, but rather a troubled human in communion with God.

Webster definition
1 a : concerned, worried <troubled feelings about the decision

Being full of grace does not mean she knows everything. The angel did tell her not to be afraid.

 

[CMatt25]

Guan, then are you telling me the priests and bishops who have disgraced our Church in the past are not Catholic either?

Guan, I received your answer. Thank you.

 

[adrift]

To address the actual topic of this thread, i think the Biblical answer is that the historical Church founded by Jesus Christ is the Church that is founded upon the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone. The question then becomes, Where are the teachings of Jesus and the Prophets and Apostles most clearly, purely, and effectively promulgated? That church is the Catholic Church in the original meaning of the name “catholic”. In some places that may be where only two or three are gathered together in His Name.

When talking about the true Church being both the Body and Bride of Christ, i think it may be helpful to remember that Christ is the Second Adam. Eve, the bride of the first Adam was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones, taken from his side. So the Church, the Bride of the Second Adam is flesh of His Flesh, bone of His Bones, taken from His Side.

With regard to the sinlessness of Mary the Mother of Christ, I would urge my Catholic brothers and sisters to exercise patience and restraint toward our Protestant brothers and sisters for whom the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary may be very difficult to digest, since that may be strong meat and not the pure milk of the Word that our weaker (not meant to be a demeaning term) brothers and sisters need for succor to grow in Grace and Truth. Is that OK?

Very well put.