Where is the justice?

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Amolibri posted:
Life without parole is a sentence used commonly these days.
What does locking folk up achieve? Retribution, Just Desserts, Rehab?

With exception to the criminally insane and violent offenders, I do not see any justification or need to lock up criminals.

Community Punishments work very well and are extremely cost effective
 
With exception to the criminally insane and violent offenders, I do not see any justification or need to lock up criminals.

Community Punishments work very well and are extremely cost effective
Care to expand on community punishments?
 
Perisimilitude posted:
Quote:Originally Posted by Sixtus
With exception to the criminally insane and violent offenders, I do not see any justification or need to lock up criminals.
Community Punishments work very well and are extremely cost effective
Care to expand on community punishments
Tagging and curfew works extremely well. The tagged offender is essentially tied to their home, which means they cannot go out but they remain in the community and with their families.

Unpaid Work also is a major disruption to the lives of offenders. They are able to remain in their normal occupations [when not performing unpaid work] and contribute through their taxes rather than being incarcerated financial liabilities to society.

Suspended sentences are also effective. One further repetition of the original offence or breach of licence conditions and they are recalled. Most offenders in my experience will do anything to avoid incarceration and that includes complying with Suspended Sentence Orders.

Accreditted Programmes are also a very effective way of helping offenders deal with the problem areas of their lives which led to the offending behaviour. Treat the cause and avoid repetition of the consequences 🙂
 
Tagging and curfew works extremely well. The tagged offender is essentially tied to their home, which means they cannot go out but they remain in the community and with their families.
What if they do not have a home, family or community?
Unpaid Work also is a major disruption to the lives of offenders. They are able to remain in their normal occupations [when not performing unpaid work] and contribute through their taxes rather than being incarcerated financial liabilities to society.
What if they do not want to or can’t work?
Suspended sentences are also effective. One further repetition of the original offence or breach of licence conditions and they are recalled. Most offenders in my experience will do anything to avoid incarceration and that includes complying with Suspended Sentence Orders.
Recalled to what exactly-prison?
Accreditted Programmes are also a very effective way of helping offenders deal with the problem areas of their lives which led to the offending behaviour. Treat the cause and avoid repetition of the consequences 🙂
In some cases that would work, but I’m not sure it would in most cases, but you might be right. I thought you meant community punishments like the scarlet letter, humiliating town center stocks…which I would approve of over jail in some cases though shame and humilation are now considered cruel and unusual therefore we (society) go out of our way to make the criminal the ‘real’ victim of an unjust and unfair world.
 
Amolibri posted:

What does locking folk up achieve? Retribution, Just Desserts, Rehab?

With exception to the criminally insane and violent offenders, I do not see any justification or need to lock up criminals.

Community Punishments work very well and are extremely cost effective
 
Amolibri posted:

What does locking folk up achieve? Retribution, Just Desserts, Rehab?

With exception to the criminally insane and violent offenders, I do not see any justification or need to lock up criminals.

Community Punishments work very well and are extremely cost effective
[Sorry 'bout that…]

Sixtus, I couldn’t agree more! My reference to life w/o parole is, of course, for capital offenses/violent offenders. (we have a “lock 'em up” mentality in our society…and quite a “prison industry”…but that’s another program) :o

You are right about the futility of locking people up. Have you ever heard of restorative justice? The Quakers have a movement called the Coalition for Equity and Restorative Justice. The acronym is CERJ. I will post some of their articles if you like…or google it and see for yourself. I hope to attend their conference in MA later this month.
 
Verisimilitude posted:
Quote:Originally Posted by Sixtus
Tagging and curfew works extremely well. The tagged offender is essentially tied to their home, which means they cannot go out but they remain in the community and with their families.
What if they do not have a home, family or community?
It is a fact that 95% of offenders DO have a home, family and community, so you are arguing ‘WHAT IF’ for less than 5% of the offender population. What is your point exactly?
Quote:Unpaid Work also is a major disruption to the lives of offenders. They are able to remain in their normal occupations [when not performing unpaid work] and contribute through their taxes rather than being incarcerated financial liabilities to society.
What if they do not want to or can’t work?
45% of the offender popularion can and do work. 40% cannot find work because they have problems and learning difficulites with reading writing and number. We aim to address these needs by assessing literacy and numeracy skills of every offender placed on Community Sentences and bring in most appropriate support to meet their needs.

If they cannot work then alternate sentences are imposed whereby there is no physical demand.

I placed such a guy two years ago with a physical disability with a musium who were looking to undertake painstaking copying of achieves onto micro-fische. At the end of his sentence, they were so pleased with what he did, they gave him a paid job. He is now a wage earner ‘EARNING not stealing his way!’
Quote:Accreditted Programmes are also a very effective way of helping offenders deal with the problem areas of their lives which led to the offending behaviour. Treat the cause and avoid repetition of the consequences
In some cases that would work, but I’m not sure it would in most cases, but you might be right. I thought you meant community punishments like the scarlet letter, humiliating town center stocks…which I would approve of over jail in some cases though shame and humilation are now considered cruel and unusual therefore we (society) **go out of our way to make the criminal the ‘real’ victim **of an unjust and unfair world.
In SOME cases…it MIGHT work? Do I hear the voice of competent practice speaking? It DOES WORK in the vast majority of cases.

Prison is a training ground whereby good law-breakers train less competent one’s to become better, avoiding detection upon their release. Prison is really bad news trust me it really is.

Who has the right to ‘name and shame’. We all have sins in our past we do not want the world to know about. How come my sins are ok because I did not get caught, but one who did get caught, it is ok to ‘name and shame’.

What you are saying is ‘it is ok to sin but it is wrong to get caught sinning’ That is not what Christ taught 😛

A lot of offenders come from dysfuntional families where everyone is an offender. They have never been properly taught right from wrong. All they know is ‘how to survive’. In that sense, they ARE victims too!

We as a society have a right to protect ourselves by teaching proper ways to behave. That involves 'pro-social modelling and teaching problem-solving skills, empathy and perspective taking skills to enable them to see things through the eyes of their victims. It does not nor should it involve public humiliation. That is cruel perverse and unnecessary. The courts give out the sentences prescribed by the law. To publically humiliate further is both unjust and un-Christian.

Most offenders have a very low and fragile self-esteem. Nothing is achieved by demolishing it further. We as Christians have a duty to ‘forgive as we have been forgiven’ and help our errant brothers and sisters re-integrate back into society.
 
Amolibri posted:
. Have you ever heard of restorative justice? The Quakers have a movement called the Coalition for Equity and Restorative Justice. The acronym is CERJ. I will post some of their articles if you like…or google it and see for yourself. I hope to attend their conference in MA later this month.

Every person on this earth yearns to love, to be loved, to know love. Our true identity, our reason for being, is to be found in this desire. Thomas Merton

No, but I would like to learn further. Please Pm me or post on this thread.

God bless you
 
What you are saying is ‘it is ok to sin but it is wrong to get caught sinning’ That is not what Christ taught 😛
I’m not saying that at all. I have observed being a theif is no longer shameful to society becasue of the theif had a mean mom or dad.
 
A major difficulty with crime and offenders is that by one definition or another, we all do it. Research in UK some years ago showed that very few [about 1% of the population] had never committed an indictable offence.

Everyone has their own conception of morality and social behaviour. What one sees as ‘crime’ another does not.

Logic and economics say you cannot lock up the entire population.

Research also shows that in any offence category, most offenders remain undetected.Threat of tough punishments and prison do not deter the 80% who never get caught, it only deters the 20% from repeat offending. Of those who do get caught, many have mental illness and mitigating reasons why they offend. Only very recently has this become extant.

Many people who commit crime are mentally ill and should in my view never have gone to court. I have over the years seen some deplorable miscarriages of justice where people have been sent to prison, who have no culpability due to illness. They are considered by society as incapable of thinking for themselves until they commit crime, then they are serious offenders who MUST BE PUNISHED!

The media is also guilty of mis-representing crime to sell newsheets. I have attended court and read about it in the local press, not realising until it was pointed out to me the case I read about was the SAME ONE I attended in court. That is how much the facts are distorted by the media.

That means ordinary folk then get the wrong perception and disagree with Sentencers for being ‘too lenient’. In the UK, more often than not, it appears Sentencers are far too harsh.

My advice is to take what you read in the press or hear onTV with a pinch of salt. In truth, if you did not attend court and hear for yourself, then you simply do not know what happened. Take all you hear about it with a pinch of salt. What you hear is 90% fiction to sell news.

The only facts that you can believe about any given case are the facts that** the facts are usually created in the mind of the journalist to sell news.
**
 
Another fact is that criminal detection and sentencing is not an absolute science. Forensic Science may be more exacting but that does not prove a persons guilt unless they are caught red-handed.

A person is only guilty before the facts. In English law, the criminal justice system is not interested whether they committed the crime. Yes, they are given the opportunity to plead ‘guilty or not guilty’ but the whole case is based not on whether they did it but on whether it can be proven before the facts.

That means those who can afford a good barrister are more likely to be found not guilty so that prisons are full of folk who were poor and could not afford better defence.

I worked on a case where a guy was absolutely guilty and ‘banged to rights’. He employed a barrister for £1000 an hour $1800] including travelling time. His brief told him that for that sort of money, a conviction was ‘out of the question!’ He got off on a technicality, a mistake the police made when they arrested him!! Is that justice?

I have seen another case where a wealthy man who was convicted got 3-months for stealing £2,000 000. A poorer man got 3-months for stealing £200. The richer man had a good barrister. The poorer man had to rely on legal aid. Is that justice?

The rich man was classed as ‘a vulnerable gentleman who went to excess’ the poorer one labelled as ‘a well informed delinquent in need of teaching a lesson’. Society looked more kindly on the rich man than the poor man. Is that justice?

I have seen a man convicted of drink driving when he was ‘at home sitting on his sofa enjoying a whisky but had his car keys in his pocket’. He was arrested and charged by police who called to investigate a minor motoring violation. Because he had his car keys in his pocket, was deemed to have been ‘in charge’ of a motor vehicle. Therefore, drunk while in-charge of a motor vehicle. Is that justice? I know of the man personally, his wife is a friend of my wife. I can state that he does not drink and drive!!!

Another classic case where a man in psychiatric care for his own protection, on day release went to the bank to draw cash his mother put in his account. His mum gave him £10. The bank told him he had £1000. He told them they had made a mistake. They insisted it was HIS money. He left, went back and still told them they had made a mistake. On receiving the same answer, withdrew all the money and spent it.

Later the bank realised their mistake. Came after him and he could not repay. He was found guilty in court and sent to prison. In prison he had a nervous breakdown and today is permanently incarcerated in psychiatric care as the effects of being in prison completely destroyed him.

I was involved with the case. I am not ashamed to say I cried when I heard of his break-down in prison. Did society get justice?

If I had the power, the Bank would have been in court for incompetence and he would have been well compensated for personal injury!!!

Some offenders get what they deserve but many do not. As many as 10% of any given prison population are innocent and have been wrongly convicted. When you are judging what should have happened, you may be condemning an innocent man.

Footnote; I am not critical of English Law. The English demand that it is preferable to send an innocent man to prison than to let an guilty one escape so it urrs on the side of injustice.There has to be a system and it happens to be the best system we have. But it is by no means perfect, nor is any other system.
 
No, but I would like to learn further. Please Pm me or post on this thread.

God bless you
Thank you, Sixtus!
We in the US may not be as “civilised” as we think!!! 😦
I’ve sent information to you.

For others who may want to know:
John Woolman College of Equity-Restorative Justice
Peacemaking and Conflict Transformation [CERJ]
c/o John Wilmerding wilmerding@earthlink.net
Brattleboro, VT, USA
Email to: CERJ@igc.org

To join the College’s email list, send
an email message to wilmerding@earthlink.net
or to CERJ@igc.org, including your first & last name,
your email address, and your state, province or
country of residence. A partial CERJ list archive is
at this site: lists.topica.com/lists/CERJ/read
 
Thank you very much Amolibri for taking the time and trouble. I received it and have registered for further information

God bless
 
Sounds great, Sixtus! Anyone else who would like to do the same is most welcome.

Viva Restorative Justice!!👍
 
The point is: if you are for the death penalty, are you ready to allow an innocent man get executed ???
There is no case in the US in the last 50 years where an innocent man is known to have been executed. Organizations working for the elimination of the death penalty feel pretty sure that at least four innocent men have been executed in the last 20 years but they admit that the evidence is not yet conclusive. On the other side of that equation there are an estimated 30-40 innocent people killed each year by people who served time in prison for homicides, were let out, and killed again. Which situation is preferable: the possible execution of one innocent person every five years or the preventable deaths of 150-200 innocent people over that same period?

Ender
 
There is no case in the US in the last 50 years where an innocent man is known to have been executed. Organizations working for the elimination of the death penalty feel pretty sure that at least four innocent men have been executed in the last 20 years but they admit that the evidence is not yet conclusive. On the other side of that equation there are an estimated 30-40 innocent people killed each year by people who served time in prison for homicides, were let out, and killed again. Which situation is preferable: the possible execution of one innocent person every five years or the preventable deaths of 150-200 innocent people over that same period?

Ender
Dear Ender,
You seem to be labouring under thge impression that it is either/or.
Actually, it is neither and both.
For many years in this country, convictions for capital murder, and there was no other kind, were dfficult to obtain, as some juries could not bring themselves to send some perpetrators to the gallows.
It was much easier to get a conviction for manslaughter, where the DP was not mandated, even though a full life term was sometimes imposed.
I believe that this also holds true in some of the ex-colonies.
 
Well-said Dave. My position has not changed. The system needs a great deal of scrutiny and revision. State killing does not solve anything, IMO.
 
Dear Ender,
You seem to be labouring under thge impression that it is either/or. Actually, it is neither and both.
My point is that neither the decision to employ or prohibit the death penalty ensures that innocent people won’t die. If you make the argument that we should avoid the death penalty because we might execute an innocent person (at worst one every five years) you also have to accept that many more innocent people will die because the guilty have not been executed, either because they will kill again or because others were not deterred by fear of execution.

This much is undeniable: more innocent people will die at the hands of killers in a society without the death penalty than will be mistakenly executed by a government that employs it.

Ender
 
My point is that neither the decision to employ or prohibit the death penalty ensures that innocent people won’t die. If you make the argument that we should avoid the death penalty because we might execute an innocent person (at worst one every five years) you also have to accept that many more innocent people will die because the guilty have not been executed, either because they will kill again or because others were not deterred by fear of execution.

This much is undeniable: more innocent people will die at the hands of killers in a society without the death penalty than will be mistakenly executed by a government that employs it.

Ender
Hello, Ender,
What disturbs me most is the taking for granted of violence, and the multiplying of it by “sanctioned” action. This is deeper than just reacting to what we perceive “is”…there need to be (and there are!) movements to CHALLENGE this notion. Does anyone take WWJD seriously any more?
 
What disturbs me most is the taking for granted of violence, and the multiplying of it by “sanctioned” action.
I’m not sure what you are implying here but this is obviously a new argument. If you are claiming that an execution is a violent act then I would dispute that. Anyone who has had a pet euthanized will tell you that a death by lethal injection is really quite peaceful. You may feel that the deliberate killing of another human is a horrible act … but don’t claim that it is a violent one.
Does anyone take WWJD seriously any more?
The television show “Happy Days” ran for years but when it ran out of things to say it got into silliness - such as having Fonzie jump a shark on water skis. Ever since, “jumping the shark” has come to mean a show has lost its way. All of my moral arguments for the death penalty have been based on the writings of the Church. Accusing me of ignoring Christ is a jump the shark moment: you must be out of serious arguments.

Ender
 
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