Where sin begins in same-sex physical intimacy

  • Thread starter Thread starter SMGS127
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I was hoping people could give me theological sources to analyze from the Catholic Church. Cesar did so, and I am most appreciative of him for that. You are unwilling to do so
I think you have missed some of my posts. I have indeed given the various documents from the Church in addition to commenting theologically on them - this is a forum where we do that (:)). In addition to the Catechism I posted a good link with the of sources.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12129223&postcount=140

Here they are fresh: couragerc.net/Church_Documents.html

And as I noted the website they are hosted on will be of interest.
 
(such that chaste lesbians calling themselves a “couple” is sinfu
What is being missed is that it is not simply what one could call -(homosexual) sexual acts -that are disordered. They are yes disordered -as are sexual acts of a guy and girl who are not married.

While Christian persons who struggle with SSA - homosexual inclinations - do not for that reason sin -nor are they as persons “disordered” - rather they are persons Children of God who struggle with temptations etc (we all struggle with differing temptations and that which is nor ordered within us).

But what is being missed as I started to say is that the “homosexual inclination” is itself “objectively disordered” (2358). And as such that which follows from the “homosexual inclination” is disordered. They are not “inclinations” or “tendencies” which are to be followed -either interiorly or exteriorly. The homosexual inclination itself is “objectively disordered”. “Dating”, “homosexual couples”, “romantic dinners”, etc etc would not be something for a Christian to choose for these things are acting from that disordered inclination.

(Again it is not the fact that a person has such inclinations within them that is sinful. Such is not sinful (just as other disordered inclinations that can happen to one -are not per se sinful -but ought not be consented to or acted on. Temptations to be not consented to and resisted -growing in virtue).)

What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in* true life*.
 
Question:

The Church does not say anything specifically about this. Can two gay men date, and even get married, but remain celibate and not sin?

Answer:

As to the question of same-sex marriage, the Church has spoken: It is not possible. Since dating is a preparation for and discernment of marriage, it follows that those who cannot marry each other should not be dating.

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10859862&highlight=date#post10859862

(there is a link with in the text that one can follow but one needs to go to the original)
 
(such that chaste lesbians calling themselves a “couple” is sinfu
What is being missed is that it is not simply what one could call -(homosexual) sexual acts -that are disordered. They are yes disordered -as are sexual acts of a guy and girl who are not married.

But before I continue let note clearly: While Christian persons who struggle with SSA - homosexual inclinations - do not for that reason sin -nor are they as persons “disordered” - rather they are persons Children of God who struggle with temptations etc (we all struggle with differing temptations and that which is nor ordered within us).

That being said - what is being missed as I started to say is that the “homosexual inclination” is itself “objectively disordered” (2358). And as such that which follows from the “homosexual inclination” is disordered. They are not “inclinations” or “tendencies” which are to be followed -either interiorly or exteriorly. The homosexual inclination itself is “objectively disordered”. “Dating”, “homosexual couples”, “romantic dinners”, etc etc would not be something for a Christian to choose for these things are acting from that disordered inclination.

(Again it is not the fact that a person has such inclinations within them that is sinful. Such is not sinful (just as other disordered inclinations that can happen to one -are not per se sinful -but ought not be consented to or acted on. Temptations to be not consented to and resisted -growing in virtue)…)

What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in* true life*.
 
Bookcat,

What on earth do you think you are accomplishing, at this point? :confused:
 
(such that chaste lesbians calling themselves a “couple” is sinfu
What is being missed is that it is not simply what one could call -(homosexual) sexual acts -that are disordered. They are yes disordered -as are sexual acts of a guy and girl who are not married. But not only those acts.

But before I continue let note clearly: While Christian persons who struggle with SSA - homosexual inclinations - do not for that reason sin -nor are they as persons “disordered” - rather they are persons Children of God who struggle with temptations etc (we all struggle with differing temptations and that which is nor ordered within us).

Now that being emphasized - what is being missed as I started to say is that the “homosexual inclination” is itself “objectively disordered” (2358). It is “itself” disordered. Not only “homosexual sexual acts” that can happen due to it. Other acts (or interior choices) then that flow from that inclination too are disordered.

“Dating”, “homosexual couples”, “kissing”, “romantic dinners”, etc etc would not be something for a Christian to choose for these things are acting from that disordered inclination. Such would be to act according to that inclination which is objectively disordered.

(Again it is not the fact that a person has such inclinations within them that is sinful. Such is not sinful (just as other disordered inclinations that can happen to one -are not per se sinful -but ought not be consented to or acted on. Temptations to be not consented to and resisted -growing in virtue)…)

What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in* true life*.
 
What is being missed is that it is not simply what one could call -(homosexual) sexual acts -that are disordered. They are yes disordered -as are sexual acts of a guy and girl who are not married. But not only those acts.

But before I continue let note clearly: While Christian persons who struggle with SSA - homosexual inclinations - do not for that reason sin -nor are they as persons “disordered” - rather they are persons Children of God who struggle with temptations etc (we all struggle with differing temptations and that which is nor ordered within us).
There is stuff in addition to that which is commonly called homosexual acts that is sinful.
Now that being emphasized - what is being missed as I started to say is that the “homosexual inclination” is itself “objectively disordered” (2358). It is “itself” disordered. Not only “homosexual sexual acts” that can happen due to it. Other acts (or interior choices) then that flow from that inclination too are disordered.
"Cherishing Life:
In so far as the homosexual orientation can lead to sexual activity which excludes openness to the generation of new human life and the essential sexual complementarity of man and woman, it is, in this particular and precise sense only, objectively disordered.
source
Note, this is a document produced by the Catholic Church of England and Wales.
“Dating”, “homosexual couples”, “kissing”, “romantic dinners”, etc etc would not be something for a Christian to choose for these things are acting from that disordered inclination. Such would be to act according to that inclination which is objectively disordered.
See quote above by the English bishops.
(Again it is not the fact that a person has such inclinations within them that is sinful. Such is not sinful (just as other disordered inclinations that can happen to one -are not per se sinful -but ought not be consented to or acted on. Temptations to be not consented to and resisted -growing in virtue)…)
Okay.
What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in* true life*.
Disinterested friendships are good for everyone.
 
Grace & Peace!
Now that being emphasized - what is being missed as I started to say is that the “homosexual inclination” is itself “objectively disordered” (2358). It is “itself” disordered. Not only “homosexual sexual acts” that can happen due to it. Other acts (or interior choices) then that flow from that inclination too are disordered.
Bookcat, this is a common (and dangerous) misunderstanding of the catechism. The catechism uses two words to describe two different things when it comes to the “disorder” of homosexuality: “intrinsically” and “objectively.” In this context, these two words are not synonyms, but carefully chosen descriptors. The catechism describes homosexual genital acts as “intrinsically disordered” while describing the homosexual inclination to those acts as “objectively disordered.” The difference is this: “intrinsic” describes a thing in itself and is appropriate to describe an act while “objective” describes the object of a desire (or an inclination for a particular act or thing) and is appropriate to describe a desire or an inclination. That is: homosexual genital expression is seen as having no intrinsic moral value and is thus intrinsically disordered, therefore any inclination which has as its object homosexual genital expression will be disordered according to its object–i.e., it will be objectively disordered.

Why are the words not interchangeable and why is it important to understand them as not interchangeable? Because describing desire (either generally or specifically) as intrinsically disordered would mean that the movement of the sensual appetite in itself was incapable of movement toward a good object or incapable of desiring the good in any way other than an evil way. If desire itself were intrinsically disordered, then it would be impossible to desire a good in a good way. This is why we can only evaluate the morality of a desire (or of desire generally) in terms of its object. A desire for a disordered object is an objectively disordered desire, not an intrinsically disordered desire.

(I refer you to Cardinal Hume’s 1995 “note on the teaching of the Catholic Church concerning homosexual people” wherein he writes that when the Church uses the term “objective disorder” with reference to homosexuality, the Church “can be thinking only of the inclination towards homosexual genital acts.” See: archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/10th-march-1995/3/cardinal-hume-launches-attack-on-homophobia)

So, for instance, the beauty of the human body is a good thing–being attracted to the human body is hardly disordered. Being attracted to someone because they embody the Good, the True and the Beautiful in a way one finds uniquely compelling is hardly disordered as people are not in themselves disordered objects. Desiring to intimately share one’s life with someone one finds attractive is also hardly representative of a desire that has as its object a disordered act. We experience the world through the good instrument of our body: in what way can desiring physical intimacy–such as laying your head against your beloved’s shoulder or in the crook of her arm while watching a stupid sitcom; or running your hand through your beloved’s hair while lazily enjoying the sunset together from the comfort of your shared porch–be described as indefatigably representative of a disordered object? Desiring a sexual act? Well, according to the catechism, that’s where we run into trouble if we happen to be attracted to the same sex or if we happen to be attracted to the opposite sex but are desiring sex outside marriage. Even then, it is not the desire in itself that is disordered, it is, in fact, the object of the desire that is disordered.

To make the claim that homosexual desire is intrinsically disordered (by believing that intrinsic and objective in this context are synonymous) is to make the claim that a homosexual cannot ever trust that he or she can ever desire in a moral way. And such a belief has real repercussions on how the humanity of homosexual people is perceived–because unlike other people, a homosexual person will be seen as only ever desiring immorality, or, should they desire goods (such as the ability to share a life with a beloved, to give and receive love in an intimate relationship characterized mutuality and chastity), they can only ever desire these goods in evil ways, and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to think that they can even desire such goods and still be desiring in moral ways. They must be taught that their desires are all wrong, that their bodies and emotions can never under any circumstances be trusted to give, receive, or express love in any way that is genuine or good. And they must be taught that this profoundly negative and inhuman vision of life is what real human wholeness and healing looks like. It’s absurd.

I have yet to read on these boards a compelling positive vision of what human wholeness looks like for homosexual people. It cannot be the case that such a vision is beyond the Catholic imagination. But this much is clear: so long as homosexuality in itself is viewed as a deficient, deviant or negative form of heterosexuality (so long as homosexuality is understood in terms of a heterosexuality it can never be), then no such vision will be forthcoming any time soon.

[CONTINUED…]
 
…COMPLETED]

SMGS, this is an incredibly important topic. Thank you. I think the fundamental answer to your initial question is: prudential judgment. But too often, same-sex attracted folks are seen as moral children, incapable of such judgment and unworthy of anything save moral censure, which is doled out for their own good. Since they can never be trusted to make the right decision in a potentially tricky moral situation, the opportunity to actually choose the right (whatever it might be) in such a situation should be denied them because the temptation to choose the wrong will only ever be too much for them to handle. There’s a whole lot of fear (not to mention a condescending paternalism) going on in all that.

Anyway. Good luck.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
Yes of course as I noted the fact that a disordered inclination exists within the person - is not a question of morality. It is simply there. Be it from a disorder in nature or nurture. But to *choose *to act according to such (and not only in terms of “homosexual sexual acts”) is not something one may choose to do. For such would be to act (interiorly and/or exteriorly) according to that inclination that is “objectively disordered” as opposed to acting in an ordered way. Such is on the level not of the fact of a disorder existing that the person knows is there -but rather on the level of choice. That is where the problem comes in (or even virtue by choosing not to act according to that inclination).
But it is still “disordered”.

I understand your an Anglican (and there are differing views there)-but in the Catholic Church this has been clarified by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith-it is not only Homosexual sexual acts that are to be seen as disordered:

“the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” (CDF Homosexualitas problema 3)

Such is not something to be acted upon in the various degrees -be it via internal thoughts or homosexual sexual acts or even other acts that are from that “disordered inclincation” (a boy having a “boyfriend”).

“Dating”, “homosexual couples”, “kissing”, “romantic dinners”, etc etc would not be something for a Christian to choose for these things are acting from that disordered inclination. Such would be to act according to that inclination which is objectively disordered.
 
Grace & Peace!
I understand your an Anglican (and there are differing views there)-but in the Catholic Church this has been clarified by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith-it is not only Homosexual sexual acts that are to be seen as disordered:

“the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” (CDF Homosexualitas problema 3)
Bookcat, the CDF repeats the catechism’s teaching: the inclination is objectively disordered. It is seen as objectively (and not intrinsically) disordered because the object of the inclination is an intrinsically disordered act. Do you see the distinction being made (that Cardinal Hume made in 1995 and which the Catholic Church in England and Wales made in 2004 [thank you Joie!])?

You will not find the homosexual inclination described anywhere in any official teaching document of the Church as being intrinsically disordered because such a thing is impossible. The inclination itself is objectively disordered because the specific inclination the catechism and the CDF have in mind is an inclination which has as its object an intrinsically disordered act. Because of its object, the inclination is itself (but NOT IN ITSELF) also disordered. It is not disordered in the same way that the act is*** in ***itself disordered (that is, it is not intrinsically disordered as the act is intrinsically disordered). Instead, the inclination is objectively disordered, not intrinsically disordered. We cannot speak of the morality of an inclination or a desire absent consideration of the object of that inclination or desire. And the object is, in this case (as Hume and England and Wales show), specific: genital sexual acts. Which acts are considered intrinsically disordered. Consequently, a desire for such acts will be considered objectively disordered.

I don’t know that the distinction can be made any clearer.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Is a person to act on a Homosexual inclination? -be it towards “sexual acts” or consent to sexual thoughts or desires or say even “dating” a person of the same gender or kissing them romantically or be engaged in some “romantic relationship” with member of the same gender??

No.

Homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered inclinations* and as such are not to be acted upon. The acts too are disordered to which the inclination is directed.

*“the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” (CDF Homosexualitas problema 3)

Catholic Answers Apologist – also briefly answered: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…ghlight=dating

“Since dating is a preparation for and discernment of marriage, it follows that those who cannot marry each other should not be dating.”

What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in true life.
 
Is a person to act on a Homosexual inclination? -be it towards “sexual acts” or consent to sexual thoughts or desires or say even “dating” a person of the same gender or kissing them romantically or be engaged in some “romantic relationship” with member of the same gender??

No.

Homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered inclinations* and as such are not to be acted upon. The acts too are disordered to which the inclination is directed.

*“the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” (CDF Homosexualitas problema 3)

For a guy to “date” a guy is yes to act upon his disordered inclination.

From Catholic Answers Staff:

Question:

The Church does not say anything specifically about this. Can two gay men date, and even get married, but remain celibate and not sin?

Answer:

As to the question of same-sex marriage, the Church has spoken: It is not possible. Since dating is a preparation for and discernment of marriage, it follows that those who cannot marry each other should not be dating.

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10859862&highlight=date#post10859862

(there is a link with in the text that one can follow but one needs to go to the original)

What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in true life.
 
couragerc.net/#

"Are you searching for the Love that surpasses all love?

Are you being called from loneliness, confusion, or isolation to fellowship, truth, and friendship?

Are you seeking the peace the world cannot give or take?

In this famous Caravaggio painting, The Calling of Saint Matthew, Jesus Christ is calling Matthew out of the only life he has known to a life he can hardly imagine. Are you being called to new life in Jesus Christ?"

couragerc.net/#
 
Grace & Peace!
I have already explained.

What I noted remains.

Peace (pax)
Bookcat, while what you noted may remain (with respect to the quotations you’ve given from the CDF and the catechism), the conclusions you’ve drawn from what you noted (for example, that “intrinsically” and “objectively” can be taken as in some way synonymous) are in error. And that error, as I have previously indicated, has some very unfortunate implications for how same-sex attracted folks are seen and how they are encouraged to see themselves, their bodies, their desires, and their capacities to give and receive love.

You may not be interested in how such an error both informs and confuses the rhetoric around homosexuality, but I can assure you that the consequences of this error are keenly felt by same-sex attracted folks: this error is a stumbling block to their understanding of the Gospel, a stumbling block to their consideration of the Church as a place where they might actually feel welcome. Indeed, this error and the thinking that follows from it is what principally constitutes the “burden” of homosexuality. For with this error, otherwise well-meaning folks “bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers” (Matthew 23:4)

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
!
Not going round and round with you on this. We have been there done that --interestingly last June.

*Is June the month when this gets asked? * 😃 (I know it is July today…but the thread started in June…)

And I understand your not a Catholic and you do not agree and I know that your not likely to agree from past experience - so there is no point. My time is limited.

I have given what needs to be given.
*
Peace to you as well.*
 
Is a person to act on a Homosexual inclination? -be it towards “sexual acts” or consent to sexual thoughts or desires or say even “dating” a person of the same gender or kissing them romantically or be engaged in some “romantic relationship” with member of the same gender??

No.

Homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered inclinations* and as such are not to be acted upon. The acts too are disordered to which the inclination is directed.

*“the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.” (CDF Homosexualitas problema 3)

For a guy to “date” a guy is yes to act upon his disordered inclination.

From Catholic Answers Staff:

Question:

The Church does not say anything specifically about this. Can two gay men date, and even get married, but remain celibate and not sin?

Answer:

As to the question of same-sex marriage, the Church has spoken: It is not possible. Since dating is a preparation for and discernment of marriage, it follows that those who cannot marry each other should not be dating.

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10859862&highlight=date#post10859862

(there is a link with in the text that one can follow but one needs to go to the original)

What is key is “disinterested friendship” (CCC 2359). Such is rich and is a way of holiness and thus of Christian perfection - friends helping each other be more and more the saints they are and becoming more and more saints in their following Christ in true life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top