Where sin begins in same-sex physical intimacy

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I disagree with this concept. I have never once suggested that the relationship not be romantic; indeed, I have theorized that the relationship is fully able to be romantic and be moral.

Historically, romantic relationships/friendships that did not involve sex were performed with extremely close friends; indeed, they were not necessarily homosexual in nature, and lesbians historically actually took advantage of the commonality of such occasions to clandestinely have sex under the guise of a romantic relationship. Historically, people were just as averse to pursuing intrafamilial romantic relationships/friendships as they were to pursuing intrafamilial marital relationships.

So I see no reason that my aversion (or view that it is improper) to having such a relationship with my sister somehow implies that it is immoral. There is no theological evidence that a romantic relationship must be confined to marital discernment if one has no concurrent obligation (either as a religious, priest, or spouse) and the romantic relationship involves no sex or lusting/seeking of “delight.”
I used fairly clumsy grammar in my prior post. Plain English works better. I was trying to ask: Would you see a problem with a relationship with your sister. If so, why, if not, why not? I was not implying anything. But thinking about it, I’m not sure why the relationship you contemplate becomes something different just because the other party is closely related. I agree that the history one has with their sibling might make it awkward, but so what?

**
 
I used fairly clumsy grammar in my prior post. Plain English works better. I was trying to ask: Would you see a problem with a relationship with your sister. If so, why, if not, why not? I was not implying anything. But thinking about it, I’m not sure why the relationship you contemplate becomes something different just because the other party is closely related. I agree that the history one has with their sibling might make it awkward, but so what?

**

Uhhh…I suppose that there would be no moral impediment to seek a romantic relationship with a close relative, as the intentions for every action must be both non-sexual and done without intentions to lust or out of some seeking of carnal pleasure.

I highly suspect that there are very few people on Earth who would be comfortable making out with their sibling, though. I obviously would be disgusted at the thought. But that’s not so much that I consider it an occasion of lust as a general aversion to any kind of intimate physicality with my sister. I’d be more comfortable giving friendly light kisses to friends than my sister.

So tldr; it probably would be moral for two siblings as well, but I think it would be unwise and (personally) extremely gross.
 
Sure, but it might not be a good reason. Plenty of straight men think the boundaries of male-male affection at this point in history are very harmful and bad.

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-07-021-f
I think the “death of male bonding” or deep friendship as described in that great article happened in the 60s and 70s. Maybe the Victorian era set the stage, but most certainly “gay panic” among straight men was the final coffin nail.

Kind of ironic when you think about it.
 
I think the “death of male bonding” or deep friendship as described in that great article happened in the 60s and 70s. Maybe the Victorian era set the stage, but most certainly “gay panic” among straight men was the final coffin nail.

Kind of ironic when you think about it.
It died a long slow death.
 
Uhhh…I suppose that there would be no moral impediment to seek a romantic relationship with a close relative…

I highly suspect that there are very few people on Earth who would be comfortable making out with their sibling, though. I obviously would be disgusted…

So tldr; it probably would be moral for two siblings as well, but I think it would be unwise and (personally) extremely gross.
That’s interesting. I understand awkwardness, particularly in light of how others might see it… But I can see nothing particularly objectionable in making out (as you’ve described it) with one’s sister. Why is one’s sister any less likely to be the object of emotional attachment than another girl? I assume the proscription against physical relationships with siblings and close relatives derives solely from the genetic issues, which are only relevant in relationships which are potentially sexual. I think the reaction you have to the prospect is born of consideration for social norms (ie. social conditioning), nothing more. If what you are contemplating is ok with a girlfriend, then my inclination is that such is certainly ok with your sister [leaving aside the matter of scandal].
 
That’s interesting. I understand awkwardness, particularly in light of how others might see it… But I can see nothing particularly objectionable in making out (as you’ve described it) with one’s sister. Why is one’s sister any less likely to be the object of emotional attachment than another girl? I assume the proscription against physical relationships with siblings and close relatives derives solely from the genetic issues, which are only relevant in relationships which are potentially sexual. I think the reaction you have to the prospect is born of consideration for social norms (ie. social conditioning), nothing more. If what you are contemplating is ok with a girlfriend, then my inclination is that such is certainly ok with your sister [leaving aside the matter of scandal].
I would agree that it is certainly moral for siblings if it is moral in general, but I would never be able or willing to with my sister, considering how gross it is to me.

Again, the making out, sleeping in the same bed, cuddling, hanging out 24/7 [only slightly exaggerating], etc. would all be done without lust without consideration of marriage, so it doesn’t really matter what genders the people are. However, I’d imagine that certain social norms should probably be kept; I would be intensely disgusted if I saw two siblings (or family members at all) making out. Doesn’t mean the action is immoral of course, but it certainly…would stand out. Although I imagine it near-impossible for most people to turn the existing relationship with their sibling into a “life partner” style relationship, even as non-sexual as it is.

However, I don’t think two people not physically attracted to each other would enjoy the relationship as much. As I said, pheromones help enhance purely emotional connections too. But I see no reason that increased emotional enjoyment would be an impediment to the relationship, as it still does not equate to lust, which is the objectification of another’s (or your own) body for personal pleasure.

On a different topic, interestingly enough, I would actually imagine a romantic friendship situation in general to be less likely to be moral for heterosexuals (with a member of the opposite sex, of course) as they have the potentiality of marital relations and are thus more likely to see it in those terms. But that has more to do with the mindset of the individuals, not the inherent morality itself.
 
…I would be intensely disgusted if I saw two siblings (or family members at all) making out. Doesn’t mean the action is immoral of course, but it certainly…would stand out. Although I imagine it near-impossible for most people to turn the existing relationship with their sibling into a “life partner” style relationship, even as non-sexual as it is…
I hear you though I have no understanding of where the disgust comes from!

I’m reminded of a TV show of many years ago. If I adapt the story line slightly to fit this thread, it would go (purely hypothetical) like this: “Two girls met each other, and they fell for each other. They formed a committed, romantic relationship, which, as they were also committed Catholics, rejected sexual relations. Their good friends were happy for them, and felt they were just so natural together. One day, they learned they shared the same parents, but were separated as toddlers. How would, these girls react to this situation”?

For me, I figure they’d say, “wow, isn’t life crazy”, but otherwise, nothing would change.
 
I hear you though I have no understanding of where the disgust comes from!

I’m reminded of a TV show of many years ago. If I adapt the story line slightly to fit this thread, it would go (purely hypothetical) like this: “Two girls met each other, and they fell for each other. They formed a committed, romantic relationship, which, as they were also committed Catholics, rejected sexual relations. Their good friends were happy for them, and felt they were just so natural together. One day, they learned they shared the same parents, but were separated as toddlers. How would, these girls react to this situation”?

For me, I figure they’d say, “wow, isn’t life crazy”, but otherwise, nothing would change.
I suppose so, maybe?

But also ask yourself: why aren’t brothers and sisters sexually attracted to each other? Is it only a cultural reinforcement? Or is there a genetic involvement that keeps heterosexual men from being attracted in response to their sisters’ pheromones? I would propose that the answer also explains why any intimate act that utilizes pheromones (even if absent lust) disgusts us to think about with our siblings.

But either way, this relationship would be decidedly non-sexual and non-lusting, so I can’t imagine anyone would be barred from birth from entering into it with another person. The only impediments I could see off the top of my head would be sex addiction, conflicts of interest (being a spouse, priest, or religious), or someone at high risk of falling into sexual sin.
 
I suppose so, maybe?

But also ask yourself: why aren’t brothers and sisters sexually attracted to each other? Is it only a cultural reinforcement? Or is there a genetic involvement that keeps heterosexual men from being attracted in response to their sisters’ pheromones? I would propose that the answer also explains why any intimate act that utilizes pheromones (even if absent lust) disgusts us to think about with our siblings.

But either way, this relationship would be decidedly non-sexual and non-lusting, so I can’t imagine anyone would be barred from birth from entering into it with another person. The only impediments I could see off the top of my head would be sex addiction, conflicts of interest (being a spouse, priest, or religious), or someone at high risk of falling into sexual sin.
I can’t take it any more, the word is hormones to refer to the chemicals in the blood, pheromones are the ones released into the environment.
 
I can’t take it any more, the word is hormones to refer to the chemicals in the blood, pheromones are the ones released into the environment.
I’m aware Joie; I have a Biochemistry background. I’m talking about the attraction found when around someone who you’re attracted to, especially if they are sweating, which is due to pheromones released from their body and detected by your brain. These pheromones intensify emotional attraction as well.
 
I’m aware Joie; I have a Biochemistry background. I’m talking about the attraction found when around someone who you’re attracted to, especially if they are sweating, which is due to pheromones released from their body and detected by your brain. These pheromones intensify emotional attraction as well.
Why are you only talking about pheromones and not talking about dopamine, oxytocin and norepinephrine?
 
Why are you only talking about pheromones and not talking about dopamine, oxytocin and norepinephrine?
Because dopamine and oxytocin are released in reaction to pheromonal involvement, and norepinephrine is involved in any activity that requires energy?

But this is off topic and irrelevant to moral theology Joie.
 
But also ask yourself: why aren’t brothers and sisters sexually attracted to each other? Is it only a cultural reinforcement? Or is there a genetic involvement that keeps heterosexual men from being attracted in response to their sisters’ pheromones? I would propose that the answer also explains why any intimate act that utilizes pheromones (even if absent lust) disgusts us to think about with our siblings.
It is generally believed that this reflex is neither genetic (at least not in the sense that our genes are coded from birth to be disgusted by our genetically close individuals) nor societal. Completely unrelated adopted siblings have been shown to have the same reflex, as do children who are raised by the same nanny, children who grow up closely together in tribal villages (or a more modern example, kibbutzim), cousins who grow up very close (while in other cultures with greater relational distance to cousins, the reflex is absent), and so on.

I think most researchers agree that pheromones are part of the picture, basically through conditioning - if you’re “overloaded” with a person’s smells during childhood, they cause this reflex. It has been tested in a study (I will not be able to provide the link - I read about it in a newspaper more than ten years ago…) where people were told to smell different sets of (obviously worn) underwear and report their reaction. People almost invariably reported disgust at smelling the underwear of parents and siblings, while giving neutral or positive response to the others. They had no way of knowing which belonged to their close relatives, other than smell. As we don’t consciously process pheromones (I’d so love having my family’s ability to smell who’s knocking on the door!), their disgust wasn’t activated from knowing it belonged to their close relatives either - it is a reflex.

Lastly, there’s actually a hypothesis that , not disgustattraction, if we remove the conditioning process above. This is because people show an incredible propensity to fall for close relatives from whom they’ve been separated, especially when they don’t even know who the person is. Especially with the birth of artificial contraception (lame pun intended), it is not that uncommon for couples to find out they’re siblings, just as they ask for a marriage license. There are also several known cases of siblings who were separated, met each other as adults and even knew who the other person is, but where the disgust reflex didn’t kick in - on the other hand, the attraction seemed to be unusually strong.

Actually, the commonality of cousin romance in countries where cousins aren’t seen as “almost siblings” kind of strengthens this hypothesis, come to think of it. While both hypotheses can probably be criticized, they sound well founded to me. In my own country, marriage (and probably even more so romance) between cousins was incredibly common up to and including the 19th century - usually, they lived in different places, people traveled less, and they often didn’t meet until their teens. With the advent of the railroad, visiting relatives became easier and thus more common, and as such the imprinting we’re speaking about happened more often, causing the rate of cousin marriage to decline. We still don’t have the taboo around it that I observe among Americans - it was still not unheard of just two generations above me, so in my home village, everyone knew (or knew of) married cousins when I grew up, and it wasn’t really seen as odd in any way. I can’t think of any examples in my generation or my parents’ generation though.
 
Thank you, that link works.

I think we are using different definitions of “passionate kissing.” I am using passionate kissing merely to mean kissing that lasts longer than a few seconds, that may or may not involve the use of tongues, end of definition, which is why I prefer the term “making out.” In the sermon, he uses passionate kissing to mean, literally, kisses of sexual passion. As St. Alphonsus says, kissing specifically for the passions or for the delight of kissing is mortally sinful, but this would involve any type of kiss that led to the inflammation of lust. On the contrary, I use the term “making out” because it has a much more strict, physiological definition of the actions involved in said kiss, but makes no assumptions on the intentions behind such a kiss. On the other hand, people generally think of the push for sexual pleasure when they consider the term “passionate kissing,” as if the term necessarily somehow means someone is kissing to achieve some aroused state.

I don’t think we are discussing the same thing. I am talking about prolonged kissing for the improvement of an emotional bond, not lustfully maximizing one’s internal pleasure.
You know, I was thinking about this and I think the response is very simple actually, you are both women. And such kissing is related to the married state, from what I understand from these quotes.

I’m leaving the discussion, I think the line opened by Rau is very interesting.

God bless you!
 
You know, I was thinking about this and I think the response is very simple actually, you are both women. And such kissing is related to the married state, from what I understand from these quotes.

I’m leaving the discussion, I think the line opened by Rau is very interesting.

God bless you!
Does this mean nonmarried heterosexual couples shouldn’t kiss since that is related to the marital state which they don’t have?
 
Hi S,

I was listening to a song today, and I thought of you, and I thought of this thread. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the song “Language or the Kiss”, by the Indigo Girls, but it very much resonates with our discussion here – on a much softer key.

In the song, the songwriter (Emily Saliers, I believe) seems to be telling about how her girlfriend gave her an ultimatum: either stop focusing so much on music, or our relationship is over. This is the choice: “the language or the kiss”. (Emily apparently chose music – “language”).

When I listened to the song, I immediately thought of you, of the loving relationships you’ve experienced, and the pain in breaking from this sort of relationship. However God leads you with respect to the question of this thread, He’s clearly leading you to give up a lot – a heck of a lot. For you, the choice is not “language or the kiss” – it’s “the Word (Jesus) or the kiss”. Know that you have my love and my prayers, going through all this.

Here are the lyrics to the song – I encourage you to look up a recording.
I don’t know if it was real or in a dream
Lately waking up I’m not sure where I’ve been
There was a table set for six and five were there
I stood outside and kept my eyes upon that empty chair
And there was steam on the windows from the kitchen
Laughter like a language I once spoke with ease
But I’m made mute by the virtue of decision
And I choose most of your life goes on without me
Oh the fear I’ve known
That I might reap the praise of strangers
And end up on my own
All I’ve sown was a song
But maybe I was wrong
I said to you the one gift which I’d adore
The package of the next 10 years unfolding
But you told me if I had my way I’d be bored
Right then I knew I loved you best born of your scolding
When we last talked we were lying on our backs
Looking at the sky through the ceiling
I used to lie like that alone out on the driveway
Trying to read the Greek upon the stars
The alphabet of feeling
Oh I knew back then
It was a calling that said if joy then pain
The sound of the voice these years later
Is still the same
I am alone in a hotel room tonight
I squeeze the sky out but there’s not a star appears
Begin my studies with this paper and this pencil
And I’m working through the grammar of my fears
Oh mercy what I won’t give
To have the things that mean the most
Not to mean the things I miss
Unforgiving the choice still is
The language or the kiss
 
Hi S,

I was listening to a song today, and I thought of you, and I thought of this thread. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the song “Language or the Kiss”, by the Indigo Girls, but it very much resonates with our discussion here – on a much softer key.

In the song, the songwriter (Emily Saliers, I believe) seems to be telling about how her girlfriend gave her an ultimatum: either stop focusing so much on music, or our relationship is over. This is the choice: “the language or the kiss”. (Emily apparently chose music – “language”).

When I listened to the song, I immediately thought of you, of the loving relationships you’ve experienced, and the pain in breaking from this sort of relationship. However God leads you with respect to the question of this thread, He’s clearly leading you to give up a lot – a heck of a lot. For you, the choice is not “language or the kiss” – it’s “the Word (Jesus) or the kiss”. Know that you have my love and my prayers, going through all this.

Here are the lyrics to the song – I encourage you to look up a recording.
You know…I kinda fail at being a lesbian from musical interests. Never listened to Indigo Girls, barely know any Tegan & Sara, really don’t like riot grrl music, etc. So I can pretty decidedly say that I don’t know the song you’re referring to 😛

However, I don’t understand why people believe there’s a dichotomy; why do people think you have to make a choice in the first place between non-sexual, non-lustful emotionally intimate acts and following God? I don’t think I have to choose “God or the kiss;” I know I have to choose “God or lust” or “God or disordered sexual behavior,” but not “God or the kiss.”

Why does St. Alphonsus write specifically that the passionate kissing, done for the purpose of erotic desire, is a mortal sin? Why does Pope Alexander VII only condemn the belief that passionate kissing done for the purpose of erotic desire is okay? Surely they could’ve made broader statements. Why not just say “passionate kissing [end-stop] is a mortal sin?” Why not condemn the broader belief that non-lustful making out is non-sinful? Do people believe they made a mistake in their writing/papal bull? A slip of the tongue? Poor wording choice? A rushed wording?

I personally believe that they put significant time and effort into choosing the words they put on paper in a specific manner, especially considering the large prevalence of non-sexual, physically intimate romantic friendships prior to the 19th century. They were exposed to these relationships and behaviors frequently, yet they specifically wrote that passionate kissing aimed at “delight” or erotic desire, aka passionate kissing for its own sake, was sinful.

If someone actually wants to defend their position, I’m all ears. But I have to be honest when I say that I’m getting really tired at the “I think it’s obvious, read it again, and I’m not talking anymore” line when I ask for why people read into things what they want to read into it. More than anything, the fact that no one is willing (able?) to give a defense that adequately explains the contingencies of St. Alphonsus/Pope Alexander VII’s writings makes me believe even stronger that my idea is licit, if near occasion is absent and scandal can be avoided 🤷.
 
Does this mean nonmarried heterosexual couples shouldn’t kiss since that is related to the marital state which they don’t have?
I have been “off site” this weekend -so I do not know all that has been said above -but I will note this.

Yes - certain kinds of kissing is yes for “the married”. Other kinds of “kissing” is for those who of opposite gender and not married but able to and seeking marriage at some point down the road.

Aside from certain “cultural greetings” and “kisses of family” etc - you know those short little kisses of family and society - those of the same gender should not be “kissing”. Nor ought they be engaged in some “relationship” that those of opposite gender would call by such terms as “dating”, “going steady”, “going out on dates” etc.

Disinterested Friendship is key for those with SSA.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#IV
 
I have been “off site” this weekend -so I do not know all that has been said above -but I will note this.

Yes - certain kinds of kissing is yes for “the married”. Other kinds of “kissing” is for those who of opposite gender and not married but able to and seeking marriage at some point down the road.

Aside from certain “cultural greetings” and “kisses of family” etc - you know those short little kisses of family and society - those of the same gender should not be “kissing”. Nor ought they be engaged in some “relationship” that those of opposite gender would call by such terms as “dating”, “going steady”, “going out on dates” etc.

Disinterested Friendship is key for those with SSA.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#IV
When they use the term “disinterested,” they mean sexually disinterested, not romantically. There is no reason why two people of the same sex should be forbidden from being in a chaste romantic relationship with each other, as has happened for virtually all of history until very recently 🤷.

Do you have any theological reasoning as to why the Church would not address an extremely prevalent phenomenon for over two millenia if it was a moral evil?

As for the kissing, we have to agree to disagree. You don’t have moral theology on your side, as it explicitly references that passionate kissing for the sake of exciting erotic desire is sinful, and you don’t even have even a remote amount of evidence for the idea that kissing that doesn’t constitute making out is sinful in any way, nor that it is exclusively aimed for heterosexual couples.
 
When they use the term “disinterested,” they mean sexually disinterested, not romantically. There is no reason why two people of the same sex should be forbidden from being in a chaste romantic relationship with each other, as has happened for virtually all of history until very recently 🤷.

Do you have any theological reasoning as to why the Church would not address an extremely prevalent phenomenon for over two millenia if it was a moral evil?

As for the kissing, we have to agree to disagree. You don’t have moral theology on your side, as it explicitly references that passionate kissing for the sake of exciting erotic desire is sinful, and you don’t even have even a remote amount of evidence for the idea that kissing that doesn’t constitute making out is sinful in any way, nor that it is exclusively aimed for heterosexual couples.
I studied moral theology --yes it is on my side (not that it is about a side…but about the truth)

Such is not a disinterested friendship and such “relationships” are ordered towards marriage. Tis the nature of man woman. They are oriented to each other by creation. Such relationships are oriented towards marriage.

As to Kissing (see above for details): Such is simply not to be engaged in by those of the same gender. It is not something “friends” do as “disinterested friends”.

Even if one claims it is not for “erotic desire”.

There is no need to even go into the quotes there noted -for it is a “no go” from the get go. Those of the same gender ought not be “kissing” or “sending romantic notes” or saying “I love you” in the homosexual way or being “a couple” etc.

Disinterested Friendships is the way to life.

“Disinterested” would yes include “Romance…” Such is not something those of the same gender ought to engage in. Such is not: “disinterested friendship”.
 
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