Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[guanophore]

Not if their differences had not yet been defined. A Catholic before Trent could subscribe to things Trent rejected, if they had not previously been rejected by the Church, and still be a good Catholic. They might say “Oops” on learning what Trent said, and remain Catholic, or “nuts”, and then become a heretic at that point, to simplify matters.

Yes, but it is a distiction without much change in outcome. Just in all the major conciliar statements about heresy, those who espoused them did not become heretics overnight, they had been heretics (materially) since they espoused non-orthodox doctrines, but they may not have known better.

Technically speaking, one cannot be be a heretic until one first accepts the orthodox doctrine, then willfully and knowlegably rejects it. Those who did not know any different before Trent don’t really qualify.

In fact, the vast majority of those in non-Catholic ecclesial communities do not qualify, despite the constant efforts of knowlegable and overzealous Catholic apologists trying to insist that they are. Espousing an heretical idea is not the same as being a heretic. If the Truth were known, there are probably many more “heretics” inside the boundaries of those who consider themselves Catholic than in any Protestant community. Most nominal Catholics believe it is not wrong to reject the teaching of the Church, or believe it is not a problem to dissent and disobey.

It would be interesting to see the rationale of someone who posts on CAF who denies the reality of computers because they are not Scriptural!

Indeed it would! How would they get an account?

What I will object to is a strained, forced eisegetical argument ostensibly supported by Scripture in defense of a doctrine otherwise not found in Scripture. It is simpler and more honest for the Catholic to say “That is in Sacred Tradition, and Scripture does not contradict it” than to bend the meaning of the text as is sometimes done.

Yes. Keep us honest!

 

[Tomyris]

I’m quite sure that this is incorrect. The bolded part, I mean. See below.

My previous elaboration speaks for itself

I presume, then, that you object to this:

Dalphon’s doctrine seems to meet all your criteria–it’s strained. It’s forced. It’s ostensibly supported by Scripture in defense of a doctrine otherwise not found in Scripture.

He hasn’t presented Scripture (unless I missed it). And it is vague enough that I am not sure what he means, either.

Not sure what you’re saying here, Tomi.

Let’s say someone is arguing that eating hot dogs wrong in Tradition and attempts to support their position by arguing

1. 
   *]Under the Law we are not to eat pork
   *] Hot dogs MIGHT contain pork, so we should not eat them
   
   That would be strained, to my way of thinking.

 

[Tomyris]

Yes, but it is a distiction without much change in outcome. Just in all the major conciliar statements about heresy, those who espoused them did not become heretics overnight, they had been heretics (materially) since they espoused non-orthodox doctrines, but they may not have known better.

Technically speaking, one cannot be be a heretic until one first accepts the orthodox doctrine, then willfully and knowlegably rejects it. Those who did not know any different before Trent don’t really qualify.

In fact, the vast majority of those in non-Catholic ecclesial communities do not qualify, despite the constant efforts of knowlegable and overzealous Catholic apologists trying to insist that they are. Espousing an heretical idea is not the same as being a heretic. If the Truth were known, there are probably many more “heretics” inside the boundaries of those who consider themselves Catholic than in any Protestant community. Most nominal Catholics believe it is not wrong to reject the teaching of the Church, or believe it is not a problem to dissent and disobey.

Aha! You fell into my trap! Aha! Aha! Bwuhaaaaa!

If Trent was merely presenting ‘what the Church has always taught’ then they were heretics from the get-go, presuming the Church had taught it well (which is, at best, debatable).

If Trent developed doctrine, then prior to Trent a Catholic could not be expected to know it, being unable to anticipate their development.

If Trent was ‘discovering’ what the Church has always taught, then there is an inherent contradiction - how could they discover something they had always known about, unless they are a lot like me. I just now said,“Look!” Elbows!" They have been quietly doing their elbow things and now I have discovered them. We will have to get reacquainted, my elbows and I, like good friends, sticking closer than a brother. Always there for me. Sniff. What pals. Excuse me while I go blow my nose and cry with joy and newly-remembered sentimentality.

 

[jmcrae]

And if Mary’s parents had not given birth to Mary we would not have Jesus. If Mary’s grandparents did not give birth to Mary’s parents we would not have Jesus. We could take this all the way back to Adam and Eve.

And we do. This is the purpose of the Old Testament, which recounts the history of Jesus’ ancestors.

 

[PRmerger]

My previous elaboration speaks for itselfHe hasn’t presented Scripture (unless I missed it).

Absolutely, he did.

Angels are messengers but we are never to pray to an angel. The New Age folks do that. The Jews always prayed to God only. Jesus said “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.” My family and friends are Catholic, I was raised Catholic so I know about praying to saints.

This is what the apostles taught in the bible. As guanophore said earlier, it was written by Catholics for Catholics.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

 

[Tomyris]

Angels are messengers but we are never to pray to an angel. The New Age folks do that.

They bake cookies, too! Should we then outlaw baking cookies? I say NO!!!

The Jews always prayed to God only.

Actually a lot of the OT discusses their problems in this regard, what with idols and groves and idolatry and following the practices of the neighboring nations…I HOPE you are not suggesting we set up Asherah and pass our kids through the fire to Molech? Mine would be pretty upset at that, being full grown. Not a good idea, not a good model. Perhaps you meant the Jews were not SUPPOSED to pray to anyone but God? How about if you back off and try again, hmmmm?

Jesus said “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.” My family and friends are Catholic, I was raised Catholic so I know about praying to saints.

This is what the apostles taught in the bible. As guanophore said earlier, it was written by Catholics for Catholics.
Hebrews 4:16

Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Ephesians 3:12

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Good Scripture, and true, but not prohibiting praying to angels.

Actually, from a pastoral perspective, I think the practice of praying to angels is not a good one, particularly the idea of developing a personal relationship with your guardian angel and all that. I think demons could have a field day there. I also think you could ask the Catholics to demonstrate from the Scriptures where praying to angels is enjoined as a salutary practice.

Just don’t call me “Coach”. Or Godzilla.

 

[Tomyris]

Absolutely, he did.

Well, now that my elbows and I have become reacquainted, I looked at it.

 

[Dalphon]

And how is it that the angels and saints can pray for us, unless we offer them our intentions?

The angels and saints kick into action when we pray to the Father. If you and others want to add another step to get to the top I suppose it doesn’t hurt but because of your faith in Jesus you can ask the Father anything. The norm for those in the bible was praying to God first.

Daniel 9:19 “O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
20 Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.

Acts 10:1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and **prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” **4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

 

[Tomyris]

The angels and saints kick into action when we pray to the Father. If you and others want to add another step to get to the top I suppose it doesn’t hurt but because of your faith in Jesus you can ask the Father anything. The norm for those in the bible was praying to God first.

Daniel 9:19 “O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
20 Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.

Acts 10:1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and **prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” **4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Neither Daniel nor Cornelius can be regarded as your typical Joe Churchgoer under the New Covenant. Daniel was under the old and Cornelius was a believer, but still outside the official church - unless you argue that what followed was somehow irrelevant.

It is safe to say that both Daniel and Cornelius had elbows, even though not mentioned in the text, but I don’t think angels do, being spiritual beings without bodies. Poor things.

 

[Dalphon]

Not true.

Evidence was presented in post #350. St Cyril is quoted on our petitioning the saints including: the patriarchs, prophets and apostles. Quoting St. Cyril :

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first,** the patriarchs**, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

They don’t do it now.

 

[Tomyris]

They don’t do it now.

Who don’t? I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the patriarchs are off somewhere, not praying, maybe comparing elbows? Or that this is no longer part of the Mass? And if so, which? the Latin or the one in common use?

 

[Dalphon]

Neither Daniel nor Cornelius can be regarded as your typical Joe Churchgoer under the New Covenant. Daniel was under the old and Cornelius was a believer, but still outside the official church - unless you argue that what followed was somehow irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant but it seems to be on this thread if you don’t pray to saints and angels you are somehow considered to be anti-Catholic or even Protestant. I used to be a Catholic and when I was attending mass regularly I didn’t feel the need to pray to anyone but God. Do you have to pray to saints and angels to be a good Catholic?

 

[PRmerger]

They bake cookies, too!

 

[Dalphon]

Who don’t? I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the patriarchs are off somewhere, not praying, maybe comparing elbows? Or that this is no longer part of the Mass? And if so, which? the Latin or the one in common use?

Sorry. I was mistaken. I’ve attended masses and I’ve heard the Litany of the Saints but I never heard the names of the patriarchs and prophets but I just looked up the Litany of the Saints and they are mentioned as the Patriarchs and Prophets.

 

[Tomyris]

It’s not irrelevant but it seems to be on this thread if you don’t pray to saints and angels you are somehow considered to be anti-Catholic or even Protestant. I used to be a Catholic and when I was attending mass regularly I didn’t feel the need to pray to anyone but God. Do you have to pray to saints and angels to be a good Catholic?

Occasionally I tell the Catholics what I think they need to do to be good Catholics. They never listen.

 

[guanophore]

Aha!  You fell into my trap! Aha! Aha! Bwuhaaaaa!

LOL. A search for the Truth is never a trap.

If Trent was merely presenting ‘what the Church has always taught’ then they were heretics from the get-go, presuming the Church had taught it well (which is, at best, debatable).

Not at all! As I said, to qualify as a heretic, one must embrace the Truth, then willfully and knowingly reject it.

Early Christians understood and believed that there was one God in three persons, though the word Trinity was never used. Jesus was understood to be fully God, and fully man, though the term homoousios was not used/adopted until the Council of Nicea in 325.

What councils do in combating heresy is to create statements that clarify what belongs to the One Faith that was passed down to us. It is possible that persons did fall into heresies prior to Trent, and the result of Trent was to make them realize this so they could return to the One Faith. Or, if not , at least they would know they had left it.

If Trent developed doctrine, then prior to Trent a Catholic could not be expected to know it, being unable to anticipate their development.

Development of doctrine occurs in response to a present need. There was no way for any of these conditions to be anticipated. How, for example, ,could the early Christians ever anticipate in vitro fertilization? They taught that abortion was a sin, but could never conceive of what modern science has been able to do? In the same way, they could never have anticipated the Reformation, or conceived that there would be Christians who, thorugh no fault of their own, were born and raised in communities that are heretical beliefs.

If Trent was ‘discovering’ what the Church has always taught, then there is an inherent contradiction - how could they discover something they had always known about, unless they are a lot like me.

What would make you think they are not like you?

Development of doctrine, though, is really not a “discovery” per se. The discovery or development is not in the once for all divine deposit of faith, but in ourselves, and how it is applied to the situations we encounter today. It occurs after a long process of prayer, study, and discernment. It is the duty of the Church to apply the doctrines of the faith to every present age and situation.

I just now said,"Look!" Elbows!" They have been quietly doing their elbow things and now I have discovered them.  We will have to get reacquainted, my elbows and I, like good friends, sticking closer than a brother. Always there for me. Sniff. What pals.  Excuse me while I go blow my nose and cry with joy and newly-remembered sentimentality.

Not so much. But, if you had decided it might be advisable to use your elbows in a different way than you had before, such as knocking people with them when they did things you didn’t like, then it might be time for some pastoral instruction on the matter.

 

[Tomyris]

Sorry. I was mistaken. I’ve attended masses and I’ve heard the Litany of the Saints but I never heard the names of the patriarchs and prophets but I just looked up the Litany of the Saints and they are mentioned as the Patriarchs and Prophets.

This is your cue to point out that angels are not on the list…See if they are in the liturgy somewhere…

 

[Tomyris]

What would make you think they are not like you?

Development of doctrine, though, is really not a “discovery” per se. The discovery or development is not in the once for all divine deposit of faith, but in ourselves, and how it is applied to the situations we encounter today. It occurs after a long process of prayer, study, and discernment. It is the duty of the Church to apply the doctrines of the faith to every present age and situation.

I am thinking of a woman in my RCIA class who was raised Catholic and was absolutely outraged on learning that Mary was not divine - and that was her word. In her Catholic upbringing Mary was literally a goddess, and a very powerful one, and she considered this FACT to be part of the Deposit of Faith, and denying it was an insult to Her, which was horribly distressing and anti-Catholic and heretical and Protestant. The priest and she went off to discuss it somewhere, as the discussion was distracting the class, and I never saw her again. But she was, as far as I know, absolutely convinced that she was a good Catholic and that was what the Church taught, because that was what she had grown up believing, and that she was embracing Truth and the pastor was not.

A long, long time ago there was a heresy in which they sacrificed to Mary. I don’t think it is completely dead…

But for the purposes of this thread, was she knowingly rejecting the truth? She was rejecting what she considered to be a lie, but objectively, she was rejecting the truth.

 

[Dalphon]

A long, long time ago there was a heresy in which they sacrificed to Mary. I don’t think it is completely dead…

It’s not dead. Many Catholics were taught you must go through Mary to get to Jesus. The folks who exalted Mary to the level of God are now considered saints and doctors of the Church. Among them are John Paul II and St. Alphonsus Liguori.

 

[Dalphon]

This is your cue to point out that angels are not on the list…See if they are in the liturgy somewhere…

They are.
All ye holy angels and archangels,
All ye holy orders of blessed spirits,
Saint John the Baptist,
Saint Joseph,
All ye holy patriarchs and prophets,
Saint Peter,