Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Tom_Pyne]

Actually Protestant beliefs go back further than old Martin Luther. There had been reform movements for centuries prior to Luther including the Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites, etc.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The apostles didn’t have the entire New Testament. They didn’t have Catholic tradition or anything else that followed. They only had “believe in Jesus and be baptized.”

Only? No, this is not the case.

*Acts 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 **And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, **45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.*

The [believers] continued in the Apostles’ Doctrine, they had [all] things in common, and they continued in one accord. Hardly just believe and you are done.

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things
and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

Paul is praising the [believers] for keeping the traditions. What traditions?

*2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which
you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. *

The traditions taught by word of mouth or by writing. How important is this?

*2 Thessalonians 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. *

Very important. Here Paul is telling the [believers] to withdraw from those who are disorderly and doesn’t follow the tradition received from the Apostles. Those are very strong words of admonition.

Bu what else do we see?

*Acts 28:30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him. *

Teaching the [things] - notice the plural here.

Let’s see what Paul tells his protege, Timothy:

*1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1 Timothy 4:6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. *

Paul can’t stress enough in the keeping with things related to the teaching, doctrine and traditions received by the Apostles from our Lord Jesus.

What else does Paul tell us?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Another strong call to follow doctrine.

But the New Testament is not by Paul Alone . Let’s see what John tells us:

*2 John 9–10 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; *

John is even stronger in his message than Paul - “whomever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God”.

So clearly, the belief comes with a doctrine, teaching and tradition that must be followed in order to remain in Him.

 

[clem456]

The apostles didn’t have the entire New Testament. They didn’t have Catholic tradition or anything else that followed. They only had “believe in Jesus and be baptized.”

This is not correct.
You have said in prior posts that Jesus is the truth. You are on to something in admitting that Christ is truth personified.
The New Testament is Christ. If you let that sink in, the concept of Tradition becomes pretty much self evident.

Christianity is a person not a book. This is the very foundation of Christianity, that we are saved not by the law, but by a person.
“the Word became flesh”.

 

[pablope]

It must be understood that very few Catholics will be free from error. The catechism is about 500 pages long. You would first have to be fairly educated and then try to understand it all when you’ve finished reading it.
What good is having all the correct teachings if you can’t convey them in an understandable way to the whole church?

I’m with you on that. I’ve seen many man-made traditions and errors among Protestants.

From your own post, #677:

They teach bible only and Jesus only.

Do you think then that what you said above is not one those man-made traditions and errors among protestants?

 

[Dalphon]

So you are relying on opinions? And your own interpretation of the Bible?
So you do not know if what is being taught in your church is true or not?

Do you know if your church teaches what is true or not? They used to say people who commit suicide go straight to hell. Now they understand mental illness a little better so we could say that was a false teaching.

How do you know it is actually the Holy Spirit?

The devil would not be leading people to repentance from sin, faith in Christ, worship and the teaching of the word.

Would the Holy Spirit tell your church to teach only a portion of what was handed down to the Apostles or would the HS tell your church to teach everything?

How do you know you’re being taught everything handed down from the apostles? Have you spoken to any Asian Orthodox bishops? The Asian Orthodox churches were started by the apostles. Maybe they have some teachings the Catholic Church doesn’t have. Even if they do, you can’t know for sure if that’s everything. Writings could have been lost or destroyed.

And besides, the Bible also says to test the spirits…so how have you and your church tested the spirits?

How have you and your church tested the spirits? Some very unholy things go on at Rome.

 

[Dalphon]

From your own post, #677:

They teach bible only and Jesus only.

Do you think then that what you said above is not one those man-made traditions and errors among protestants?

Yes, it’s a man-made tradition started by the reformation. It was necessary then and still is necessary to go back to the roots and see what happened there. If you want to teach what happened later that’s a great benefit also but you shouldn’t start at the middle, go to present day and leave out the beginning. That’s confusing.
As I said before you may believe Catholicism has everything right but very few Catholics understand it all, so they’re in the same boat as Protestants who don’t understand it all.

 

[Dalphon]

This is not correct.
You have said in prior posts that Jesus is the truth. You are on to something in admitting that Christ is truth personified.
The New Testament is Christ. If you let that sink in, the concept of Tradition becomes pretty much self evident.

Christianity is a person not a book. This is the very foundation of Christianity, that we are saved not by the law, but by a person.
“the Word became flesh”.

Yes I know.

I’m saying the original 12 did not have today’s catechism, the complete new testament or 2000 years of church history and they were still able to save souls. Just like an old jeep has no windshield, no doors and no roof but it still gets you from here to there.

 

[clem456]

Yes I know.

I’m saying the original 12 did not have today’s catechism, the complete new testament or 2000 years of church history and they were still able to save souls.

You are making a point, and not absorbing the significance of your own point.

 

[Dalphon]

Which is?

 

[Denise1957]

As I said before you may believe Catholicism has everything right but very few Catholics understand it all, so they’re in the same boat as Protestants who don’t understand it all.

I guess you changed your mind about only wanting to talk about those thirty seconds before someone dies.

We Catholic laity are taught what we need to know in order to save our souls. The clergy and hierarchy have to know more than we do. We laity don’t have to understand “everything.” We have to understand what Jesus basically taught, so that we can grow in holiness, humility, charity, speaking truths without being afraid, receive the sacraments worthily, and therefore also we grow in our love for God and neighbor. We don’t believe that we are automatically saved through baptism; we need to work at it, so a church structure and hierarchy (with the sacraments) are needed to help that process, which also passes down what Our Lord taught through scripture and tradition.

 

[Denise1957]

Some very unholy things go on at Rome.

Such as…??

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Yes, it’s a man-made tradition started by the reformation. It was necessary then and still is necessary to go back to the roots and see what happened there. If you want to teach what happened later that’s a great benefit also but you shouldn’t start at the middle, go to present day and leave out the beginning. That’s confusing.

I agree. Although you probably didn’t like Pulp Fiction, or other movies with flashbacks and flash-forward scenes.

As I said before you may believe Catholicism has everything right but very few Catholics understand it all, so they’re in the same boat as Protestants who don’t understand it all.

Not quite true.
While extremely valuable, it is not perfect understanding that perfects us.

Christ said “Take, eat.” He did NOT say “Take, understand.”

 

[benhur]

So where does this idea come from, that * being “saved” is being born of the Spirit, being born again, entering life from death.*

Probably from the experience of some that when they realize by the conviction of the HS their desperate need for salvation, that they are destined to hell for their inability to have saving faith on their own, can not sincerely proclaim Jesus as their Lord and Savior…(.get the picture?), BUT are prompted, even drawn by the Father to call out,even cry out for a remedy to Him, and lo and behold, a transformation happens, and saving* faith* is (name removed by moderator)lanted as a *gift from God. * “He will hear their cry and will **save **them” Palm 149. Now the person can sincerely and happily proclaim Jesus as their Lord and Savior with their new heart, revived spirit.

 

[Dalphon]

I guess you changed your mind about only wanting to talk about those thirty seconds before someone dies.

We Catholic laity are taught what we need to know in order to save our souls. The clergy and hierarchy have to know more than we do. We laity don’t have to understand “everything.” We have to understand what Jesus basically taught, so that we can grow in holiness, humility, charity, speaking truths without being afraid, receive the sacraments worthily, and therefore also we grow in our love for God and neighbor. We don’t believe that we are automatically saved through baptism; we need to work at it, so a church structure and hierarchy (with the sacraments) are needed to help that process, which also passes down what Our Lord taught through scripture and tradition.

I don’t get it. I never said you don’t need a church and continual teaching.

 

[clem456]

Which is?

I think the point is that it’s getting pointless.
You make a statement that demonstrates what Tradition is, and don’t realize what you’re saying. Take the time to think about the words you are saying.
Yes, the apostles did not have the catechism. They had Christ, the living person. That’s what Tradition is, the life of Christ living on through his body. The canon of Scripture, the catechism, everything, grows out of that living body that you admit exists.
Think about what you are saying.

 

[Dalphon]

While extremely valuable, it is not perfect understanding that perfects us.

Christ said “Take, eat.” He did NOT say “Take, understand.”

That was the point I was trying to make. Then why pick on Protestants who don’t have perfect understanding?

 

[benhur]

The goalposts ALWAYS move by Protestant objectors. Always.

First your objection is: you should always go to God directly. Praying to saints puts someone else in the middle.

When it is shown that you, too, don’t always go directly to God. That you put someone else in the middle…through your prayer chains…

the objection becomes, ALWAYS: well, there’s no proof in Scripture that the dead can hear us.

So at least we have established that the objection to praying to saints ISN’T that it puts someone else in the middle…

but only that the dead can’t hear us.

Are we agreed on that, benhur? You understand that going to the saints is nothing more than a heavenly prayer chain? And you don’t see anything wrong with prayer chains, right?

So long as the petition is to the Godhead and not the saint,that God makes it happen and not the saint. God heals you, protects you on your journey, helps you remember things,helps with vocations etc…

 

[Denise1957]

I don’t get it. I never said you don’t need a church and continual teaching.

Well, then, please refresh my memory as to what you said.

 

[Dalphon]

I think the point is that it’s getting pointless.
You make a statement that demonstrates what Tradition is, and don’t realize what you’re saying. Take the time to think about the words you are saying.
Yes, the apostles did not have the catechism. They had Christ, the living person. That’s what Tradition is, the life of Christ living on through his body. The canon of Scripture, the catechism, everything, grows out of that living body that you admit exists.
Think about what you are saying.

Tradition - the handing down orally of beliefs, customs, etc. from generation to generation.
So if you’re Catholic you hand down Catholic tradition. If you’re not Catholic you don’t hand down Catholic tradition. **You don’t need Catholic tradition to have salvation. That is my point.
**

 

[clem456]

Tradition - the handing down orally of beliefs, customs, etc. from generation to generation.
So if you’re Catholic you hand down Catholic tradition. If you’re not Catholic you don’t hand down Catholic tradition. **You don’t need Catholic tradition to have salvation. That is my point.
**

The apostles didn’t have the entire New Testament. They didn’t have Catholic tradition or anything else that followed. They only had “believe in Jesus and be baptized.”

You are contradicting yourself.
You say the apostles don’t need the book because they have a person. That’s Tradition. You don’t understand what Tradition is.
Tradition is not just oral story-time, it is the life of Christ that continually permeates his Church. Like the Apostles who

had "believe in Jesus and be baptized

.
Your own words prove you accept Tradition.
So the question becomes, will you accept authentic Tradition?
Or do you believe Christ is still dead, and tradition is of your own making?
Which is it?