Where will you go when you die?

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

The main problem of this person is in the imagination that created him… This imagination says:

Dear imagination: are you sure this man lived COMPLETELY based on the Gospel? Did he COMPLETELY follow the 10 Commandments?

Can you please name a person, other than Jesus Christ, who followed the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Here’s the revised story:

Now a man named Bill personally decided to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior when he was 18 and was born again. He lived his for Christ, he gave to charitiy, he got involved in the ministry, and even became a missionary for 20 years. He preached the Gospel for years and many people accepted Christ. Then one day he woke up, he was cranky and decided not to Thank God for the day. He got into an argument with his mother over the phone. He went to the grocery store that day and while he was shopping, he went to the bulk food section and helped himself to the candy there and did not pay for it. On the way home, he saw a cat in the middle of the road and intentionally ran it over, cursing the Lord in the process. He commited adultery that day and then murdered the adultress so she could not tell anyone. Then when he arrived home and died suddenly from a heart attack, he did not even have a chance to call upon the Lord for mercy. Where is this man now?

P.S. you did not answer the question, now you can. My, my, someone has a very Christian tone today.

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Your main problem is that you are doing that big assumption that I don’t know your Roman philosophies,

I have seen first hand that you do not know our dogmas and doctrines, that came from the Holy Spirit.

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Is the Blood of Jesus Christ ENOUGH to clean the sinner?
Did Jesus bear on Himself our sins, and did He get the JUST punishment for our sins?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

These are common ones, and not unreasonable. They presume that the concept of Purgatory in some way diminishes the Sacrifice of Christ. But these questions also deny the weight of Scripture, including such passages as the one from Corinthians cited earlier and Revelation 21:27, which promise that nothing unclean shall enter the heavenly City. However we are made worthy to enter that City, it is always via the Cross.

Another common misconception is that Purgatory represents a second chance to “get it right.” Uh-uh. Our commitment to Christ must be made this side of the grave.

For me, Purgatory is part of God’s mercy. “Our God is a consuming fire.” (Heb. 12:29)

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

Can you please name a person, other than Jesus Christ, who followed the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY?

“Hail full of Grace!” But that’s another topic, for another thread.

 

[jeffreedy789]

i confess i have not read the entire thread, so forgive my possible redundancy - but i believe that the church teaches that everyone who is heaven-bound - or at least, almost everyone - goes to purgatory fist, at least for a bit.

i’ve heard that even the pope, or mother teresa, will go to purgatory, if only for a brief instance. no one dies perfectly - no one dies sin-free. we all have a little purifying to do. at least, that’s what i understand. please correct me if i’m wrong (i don’t mean if you think otherwise - i mean if you know i’m wrong, and have church teaching to show me). i was told this by a young man studying for the priesthood.

so - i ‘voted’ ‘purgatory’. a good ‘washing up’ will definitely do me good. i AM however, still sinful. so hell is not ruled out entirely. but i pray that i die in a state of grace.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Here’s the revised story:

Now a man named Bill personally decided to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior when he was 18 and was born again. He lived his for Christ, he gave to charitiy, he got involved in the ministry, and even became a missionary for 20 years. He preached the Gospel for years and many people accepted Christ. Then one day he woke up, he was cranky and decided not to Thank God for the day. He got into an argument with his mother over the phone. He went to the grocery store that day and while he was shopping, he went to the bulk food section and helped himself to the candy there and did not pay for it. On the way home, he saw a cat in the middle of the road and intentionally ran it over, cursing the Lord in the process. He commited adultery that day and then murdered the adultress so she could not tell anyone. Then when he arrived home and died suddenly from a heart attack, he did not even have a chance to call upon the Lord for mercy. Where is this man now?

P.S. you did not answer the question, now you can. My, my, someone has a very Christian tone today.

The creator of this story is doing very much assumptions…

Is he sure that this person was born again?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Psalm45:9:

Here’s the revised story:

Now a man named Bill personally decided to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior when he was 18 and was born again. He lived his for Christ, he gave to charitiy, he got involved in the ministry, and even became a missionary for 20 years. He preached the Gospel for years and many people accepted Christ. Then one day he woke up, he was cranky and decided not to Thank God for the day. He got into an argument with his mother over the phone. He went to the grocery store that day and while he was shopping, he went to the bulk food section and helped himself to the candy there and did not pay for it. On the way home, he saw a cat in the middle of the road and intentionally ran it over, cursing the Lord in the process. He commited adultery that day and then murdered the adultress so she could not tell anyone. Then when he arrived home and died suddenly from a heart attack, he did not even have a chance to call upon the Lord for mercy. Where is this man now?

Point 1: We don’t know the mind of God.

Point 2: We have been instructed not to judge. At best you can have an academic discussion about this, but if we think we can resolve it, then refer to point 1.

Point 3: We spend too much time worrying about the outcome of our lives, especially when we believe our eternal fate ostensibly depends on trivial aspects of our lives such as whether someone called for mercy in their last two seconds of life. This seems to instill a superstitious “step on a crack” mentality in Christians that constantly motivate through fear rather than seeking peace through love. If my as-determined-by-a-court-of-law attitude at the time I die determines my eternal salvation, then my whole life becomes worth nothing except a rehearsal for the last minute.

The short answer: who cares where this guy ended up? Leave that up to God and let’s get to the business of loving each other the way Christ taught us. Then maybe we will live a life with which God will be please and for which Christ can defend us.

Alan

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

Is he sure that this person was born again?

You have taken the Catholic perspective! You have concluded that this man who professed his faith and was baptized was never really saved, although he believed with all his heart and soul at the time.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Pax Vobis Cvm!

You have taken the Catholic perspective! You have concluded that this man who professed his faith and was baptized was never really saved, although he believed with all his heart and soul at the time.

I asked you if the author of this story is sure that this person he created is really born again… I see what you understood…

If that person really believed, he was surely born again. But can you know if he really believed? It is only God and him who can be sure of that.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobis Cvm!

YAQUBOS:

It is only God and him who can be sure of that.

:clapping: You are sounding like Catholic!

YAQUBOS:
Dear imagination: are you sure this man lived COMPLETELY based on the Gospel? Did he COMPLETELY follow the 10 Commandments?

You seem to imply that in order for a man to be truly born again, he must not go against God’s Ten Commandments, but then you continue to say:

YAQUBOS:

Can you please name a person, other than Jesus Christ, who followed the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY?

YAQUBOS:

If that person really believed, he was surely born again.

Well if no one can completely follow the Ten Commandments, then no one must be truly born again (at least in the Evangelical sense of ‘born again’), and thus they cannot be assured of their salvation by simply believing in Jesus. Even Lutherans and Anglicans believe in this, not just Catholics.

P.S. Mary never sinned, but that’s another discussion for another thread.

 

[dvalle27]

I read this the other day and thought it was very relevant here:

---

THE TEACHING OF ST. THERESE OF LISIEUX ON PURGATORY
St. Therese’s “doctrine” in 7 key words

1. Purgatory became a rule rather than the exception.

An infinite number of souls who suffer in Purgatory and for whom the Church prays daily after consecration did not need to go there. If we think in human terms, God does not wish for us to need Purgatory. God does not put us here on earth, where we are tested and are suffering after the fall, only to let us suffer again–and much worse–in Purgatory. Everyone receives enough graces in order to go straight to God after passing the trials on earth. However, Purgatory is an emergency entry to Heaven for those who have wasted their time. However, what God considered the exception became the rule, and the rule–to go straight to heaven–became the exception.

1. To cope with the “inevitable” is a grave error.

Since God does not really want Purgatory, He does not want it for me either! But then I also have to not want it! Nobody would expose themselves to the danger of Purgatory by living a mediocre and–as is the case so often today–a sinful life. If they only thought of the intense sufferings in Purgatory. In this regard, the mystics unanimously say that the least suffering in Purgatory is much greater than the greatest suffering here on earth! The reason for this is that once in Purgatory, one does not go through the time of God’s Mercy but of God’s Justice. Here, the Lord’s word applies: "1 tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the very last copper’ (Lk 12:59). The many who carelessly say, “I will probably spend some time there,” are gravely wrong. Nobody just spends some time there, one has to suffer there like one has never suffered nor could have suffered while on earth. One often even suffers a long time there also. If the Poor Souls in Purgatory had known on earth what to expect in eternity, Purgatory would have remained empty.

1. Purgatory is a waste of time.

This is what St. Therese says, "I know that of myself I would not merit even to enter that place of expiation since only holy souls can have entrance there. But I also know that the Fire of Love is more sanctifying than is the tire of Purgatory. I know that Jesus cannot desire useless sufferings for us, and that He would not inspire the longings I feel unless He wanted to grant them."13 It is true that Purgatory is a wonderful grace, for if needed, without the purification in Purgatory we would not go to Heaven, and the work of art which God intended and created us to be would not be completed. But St. Therese is right: at the moment of our death we already have our place in Heaven. Afterwards, there is no growing in grace anymore. Whoever does not go through Purgatory does not miss anything.

1. We need a more positive image of God.

We already know that St. Therese told her novices that they offended God when they thought they would go to Purgatory. That is a very shocking statement: for if this is correct millions of Christians are offending God or at least hurt Him. And yet this is the case. They are focused only on themselves, thinking–not without reason–that they deserve Purgatory. They do not notice God Who is by their side and would love to help them so much. The fact that we fear Purgatory so much also has to do with a rather negative image that we have of God. We, Christians of the 20th Century, were like so many, raised with the image of a strict God, anxious to punish us as often as we deserve it. This thinking goes back to heresies like Jansenism. Quietism, or Calvinism. 14

 

[dvalle27]

cont…

1. Love banishes fear
   The question of whether Heaven will follow right after death is a question of trust. God does not need our merits in order to take us straight to Him but He needs all of our trust. Or the other way around–it is not -our sins that can prevent God from giving us this grace but rather our lack of trust. Therefore, we must draw the conclusion that everything depends solely on trust. There is no trust without perfect love. And vice versa, there is no love without trust.
   And this is exactly what the Apostle John writes in his first letter, “In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love” (1 Jn. 4:17-18).
   This text enlightens our topic very much. Judgment Day is the day of our death. Whoever achieves perfect love at the moment of their death sees God as so merciful and generous that they cannot believe in punishment in Purgatory. We are dealing with the same kind of grace in the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick. St. Thomas Aquinas teaches us that this Sacrament has as its real fruit the wiping out of punishment due to our sins.15 After those who have received the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, others present often notice that the sick enter a period of growing peace and trust, together with a great surrender to the Will of God, and even serenity and desire for Heaven. This also applies to those who up to that point did not believe or even lived in mortal sin. Even these people, as the great theologians of the scholastics say–for example, St. Albert the Great or St. Bonaventure–go straight to Heaven without having to go through Purgatory first. This shows the wonderful grace coming from the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.16
2. The last will be the first.
   While many Christians do receive the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, experience tells us that they do not go straight to Heaven. The mystics often relate that many priests and religious suffer a long time and have to wait for their release. However, all of them or almost all of them have received the Sacrament of the Anointing. What is the reason for this? The answer is certainly that they did not receive the Sacrament with the necessary repentance or surrender to the Will of God, or that they did not want to change their flaws and vices a long time before their death.
   St. Therese of Lisieux tells us that she heard that sometimes great saints with many merits come before the Judgment of God, but have to go to Purgatory because our justice before God is often unclean. That is why she recommends to give
   immediately away all the merits of our good deeds, and that it is better to appear before God empty-handed.17 She recommends to her oldest sister and godmother Marie, to be given Heaven free of charge by God.18
   While on the one hand the first ones don’t always get to Heaven first, on the other hand there are enough examples that the last ones become the first ones. Therese refers in her writings to the Lord’s mercy towards the good thief,19 and wishes that the story from the “desert fathers,” about how a great sinner called Paesie died out of love and is being taken straight to heaven, should be added to her autobiography, "Souls will understand immediately, for it is a striking example of what I’m trying to say."20
   When our great hour comes, as St. Therese writes to Abbe Roulland, missionary in China, if only we trust, the Blessed Virgin will obtain “the grace of making an act of perfect love” should we have “some trace of human weakness” and so will we reach heaven immediately after death.21

 

[dvalle27]

cont 2…

1. St. Therese’s teaching, a great message for the third millennium
   One can rightfully say that Therese is turning all common opinions on Purgatory upside down.22 She wants to appear before God empty-handed and explains why it can be easier for sinners who have nothing to rely upon, to reach Heaven than the great saints with all their merits… She emphasizes that trust alone is enough, that merits are no guarantee but often an obstacle for the straight way to Heaven, and that sins do not need to be an obstacle. After a ‘messed-up’ life, God can still take one straight to Heaven if the dying person only has trust. And how easy it can be to trust if there are no merits but only one’s misery! Through trust she shows the shorter way to Heaven to the small and humble. And so many can and will go that way. She writes about this to her sister Marie: "… what pleases Him (God) is that He sees me loving my littleness and my poverty, the blind hope that I have in His mercy… That is my only treasure, dear Godmother, why should this treasure not be yours?.."23
   As has been said, she has made sanctity available for everyone through her little way, and this is also true for the straight way to Heaven… This will no longer be an exception. Once those who are smart enough to gather from the treasures of our new Doctor of the Church will walk this way easily, especially those who want to be part of the legion of little souls which St. Therese asked God for at the end of her manuscript B, "I beg You to cast Your Divine Glance upon a great number of little souls. I beg You to choose a legion of little Victims worthy of Your LOVE!"24 Yes, by listening to her wonderful message there will be many, many souls… and with that, Purgatory stops being the unavoidable detour to Heaven!

---

you can find the whole article here:
www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/litfwrpu.htm

Sorry for the LOOOOng post … it’s worth it!!

 

[Teresita]

Well, considering that I’ve spent the last couple of hours this evening browsing here and posting bits and pieces, when I should really have been working on the magazine I’m supposed to be getting out two weeks ago, I reckon that I’ll be lucky to make Purgatory:crying:

Sue

 

[redeemed1]

Jesus promised the theif on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that very day, after the theif repented of his sin.
Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. **And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. **And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And Jesus revealed to Paul:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

---

This is why I know I am going to heaven either when I die or the Lord comes first. Amen!

 

[michaelp]

Church Militant:

You can’t deny that passage…Nor 1st Maccabees 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but didn’t those in Macc. 12:46 commit idolatry? A mortal sin? Even if this passage was to be included as inspired, it cannot be teaching Purgatory.

Sorry, just a quick itch.

Michael

 

[michaelp]

By the way, when I die, I will go directly to my Savior and meet my sister. It will be great, but I have a few more things to do here.

Michael

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS:

It is only God and him who can be sure of that.

:clapping: You are sounding like Catholic!

Amen! Because I am Christian.

But just to clarify: did you understand who is this “him”?

I mean: do you believe that when someone is born again, he REALLY KNOWS that he is born again?

YAQUBOS:

Dear imagination: are you sure this man lived COMPLETELY based on the Gospel? Did he COMPLETELY follow the 10 Commandments?

Psalm45:9:

You seem to imply that in order for a man to be truly born again, he must not go against God’s Ten Commandments

Wrong. I didn’t say that in order to be born again a man must be perfectly keeping the 10 Commandments. For we are saved by Grace through Faith.

But as you assumed that this man you are describing was keeping the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY, that’s why I asked that question.
Psalm45:9:

but then you continue to say:

YAQUBOS:

Can you please name a person, other than Jesus Christ, who followed the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY?

So, as you see, I believe no one, other than Jesus Christ, can follow the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY.

YAQUBOS:

If that person really believed, he was surely born again.

Psalm45:9:

Well if no one can completely follow the Ten Commandments, then no one must be truly born again (at least in the Evangelical sense of ‘born again’), and thus they cannot be assured of their salvation by simply believing in Jesus. Even Lutherans and Anglicans believe in this, not just Catholics.

As God says, and as I told you before, we are saved by GRACE through FAITH, and not by the works of the Law.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Sarah_Jane]

As God says, and as I told you before, we are saved by GRACE through FAITH, and not by the works of the Law.

And as the Catholic Church says :

“Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.” (CCC, 1991)

“Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.” (CCC, 1992)

“Our justification comes from the grace of God.” (CCC, 1996)

“Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.” (CCC, 2005)

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobix Cvm!

YAQUBOS:
Amen! Because I am Christian.

But just to clarify: did you understand who is this “him”?

I mean: do you believe that when someone is born again, he REALLY KNOWS that he is born again?

Well given the answer you gave me previously, you seemed to imply that a person doesn’t know if he is truly born again, until after this person dies.

YAQUBOS:

Wrong. I didn’t say that in order to be born again a man must be perfectly keeping the 10 Commandments.

Then the man in my story must have been saved, he believed with all his heart and soul.

For we are saved by Grace through Faith.

The man did have faith. We are saved by Infused Grace through faith with good works, it is neither the faith nor the good works that save us, it is solely God’s Infused Grace, I’m glad we agree. God’s grace begins with faith, however, good works continue the flow of God’s grace. For just as St. James said in his Epistle, faith without works is dead, just like Satan’s faith.

YAQUBOS:

But as you assumed that this man you are describing was keeping the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY, that’s why I asked that question.

Thank you!

YAQUBOS:

So, as you see, I believe no one, other than Jesus Christ, can follow the 10 Commandments COMPLETELY.

No man can follow the Ten Commandments completely without God’s grace, Mary was full of Grace (but that is another topic for another thread). If all we need is faith, then Catholics are already saved, because we all believe that Jesus is our personal Lord and Savior.

YAQUBOS:

As God says, and as I told you before, we are saved by GRACE through FAITH

So far so good, infused grace begins with faith, but it does not end there.

YAQUBOS:

and not by the works of the Law.

We believe that too, the works of law St. Paul is referring to in his Epistle to the Romans is the Mosaic Law. He was criticizing the Jews who rejected the savior. Being circumcised, eating Kosher foods, and offering up animal sacrifices instead of offering up the perfect and eternal sacrifice of Calvary, etc. The mosaic law is not going to save you, because Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection has ended the Mosaic Law. Just like what St. John the Baptist said, “Do not presume to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees.” (Matthew 3:9-10) Works of Law and good works are not the same thing. However, good works do not save us, but the infusing grace that comes through good works does.