Where's the tabernacle?

[CrypticWritings]

Not according to the rules of the Church. ]Apparently Rome is wrong, then. Actually, the Church says the Mass is the sum and summit; the rules also say that the priest should strive to consecrate ony enough Hosts for distribution at that Mass and not be having large numbers reserved.

Oh, so now my parish, which has the Eucharist reserved in a chapel, is full of liturgical abuses? Like the 24 hourPerpetual Adoration we have in our parish? You are entitled to your opinions, but I suspect they are not backed yup by any real world experience.

And by the way, the Church must have been wrong for almost half its existence, as that was about how long it took the Church to start having a tabernacle on the main altar.

I’m only stating an opinion I think legitimate and that is backed by real world experience. I’m also speaking “in general”.

What do I mean by “wrong”…hmmm…well this is a not so serious example just for the sake of being unusual but…
Much like if you have a friend who buys a brand new car, let’s say it’s a Ferrari. He decides to paint it yellow with pink polka dot’s and then puts on some of those “bling-bling” spinner rims and all you can think is “Wow, man, that’s just wrong!” That’s not what a Ferrari is for!
He has the ability to modify his care, true, but it still would look a whole lot better if it was factory red and track ready.

Something being allowed and something being the right thing to do are different.
Just because the church has the authority to change disciplines does not make it “right” or “better”.
The Church should always be striving to do better for our Lord and be more orderly, reverent etc. While they may know better and see the bigger picture, there is often an attitude of change for the sake of change which is not just.
It’s not what anyone feels is right, but what is right.

Sure, people disagree with me, and I’m open to criticism, but I see that much of the modern world has lost the sense of the Divine just as they have lost much chilvary, respect for women, life etc. Some of those attitudes infect the church via her members and we (members) have a duty to fight them, to avenge wrong toward our beloved Bridegroom, Christ. There is nothing wrong with telling our church leaders how we see things and trying to hold things to a higher standard if we can find legitimate reason to prove our point.

It seems fit (and is fit) that the Lord God should have his throne, the tabenacle, at the center of the church.
24 hour Eucharistic Adoration is good and should be promoting this attitude, not taking from it. Also, not every parish has 24 hour Eucharistic Adoration (most don’t) and there is not really a need because priests and people from many local parishes can cooperate to have it at select parishes/chapels taking some of the burden off other priests to keep their chapels open for 24 hours as they have many duties to take care of. Also, lay people have jobs and duties and can not always be available so it is difficult for most parishes to fill the 24 hours with a steady flow of Adorers. Even at very populated parishes, often only one or two people can take late shifts and I have seen many either not show up or even leave early assuming that some “passer by” (such as myself) is there for the next schduled shift. I am fine with staying, but the point is that people can’t/don’t always fulfill their duties. So it is (and seems right) that the Bishops job is to decide the need and how to set up the chapels available for this devotion while rendering proper respect to Our Lord. Some bishops do it correctly, some abuse it through either negligence or possible ignorance. That is why the parish priest must (should) ask the permission of the Bishop for such a devotion because the bishop should be better able to assess the need and better ensure there are no abuses of such a priviledge. For example, the laity should not be in a situation where they have to remove the Blessed Sacrament from the Monstrance or place our Precious Lord in the monstrance, that it the duty of a priest/ordained. Just because a bishop opposes certain parishes having the Blessed Sacrament in a seperate chapel does not mean he is opposed to it, he perhaps just knows better the need (demand).

Also, instead of just saying that the church had the tabernacle one way for x number of years and then saying they changed it is not much help. One has to know why it was the previous way, and why that discipline was changed. To say something was "done that way before’, does not justify the position.

 

[Genesis315]

I can’t help but think that along with the new mass and removing the tabernacle from the main body of the church the Vatican is trying to Protestantize Catholic churches. Trying to be politically correct maybe?

The Vatican doesn’t control how churches are built for the most part. Likewise, most of the really old Cathedrals have separate chapels where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved.

There’s two schools of thought. One, is that the tabernacle on the altar places Jesus Christ front and center. The other is that the actual consecration during the Mass should be the sole focus. Both have their pros and cons. I prefer the former.

What doesn’t make sense to me is when the tabernacle is in neither place. For example, when it is up front to the side of the altar or sanctuary it creates two non-linear focal points–the consecation on the altar and the tabernacle with the consecrated hosts reserved. When they are all in the center, there is more of a visual unity–the same visual unity is present when the tabernacle is in a separate chapel. But when the consecration is in front of you and the tabernacle is up front and to the right or left, it ruptures the visible unity.

 

[lizaanne]

Our Church has the tabernacle right on the high altar - though it is an extremely traditional and conservative parish.

My Dad’s Church is quite modern, and the tabernacle looks like a gold mail box in the wall off to the side - WAY to the side - of the raised sanctuary platform. After Mass the vessels are left on a ledge in front of the tabernacle like dirty dinner dishes. I really dislike going there, but when we visit him it’s their parish so it’s where we go.

~Liza

 

[otjm]

SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS
OF THE HOLY FATHER
BENEDICT XVI
The location of the tabernacle
69. In considering the importance of eucharistic reservation and adoration, and reverence for the sacrament of Christ’s sacrifice, the Synod of Bishops also discussed the question of the proper placement of the tabernacle in our churches. (196) The correct positioning of the tabernacle contributes to the recognition of Christ’s real presence in the Blessed Sacrament. Therefore, the place where the eucharistic species are reserved, marked by a sanctuary lamp, should be readily visible to everyone entering the church. It is therefore necessary to take into account the building’s architecture: in churches which do not have a Blessed Sacrament chapel, and where the high altar with its tabernacle is still in place, it is appropriate to continue to use this structure for the reservation and adoration of the Eucharist, taking care not to place the celebrant’s chair in front of it. In new churches, it is good to position the Blessed Sacrament chapel close to the sanctuary; where this is not possible, it is preferable to locate the tabernacle in the sanctuary, in a sufficiently elevated place, at the centre of the apse area, or in another place where it will be equally conspicuous. Attention to these considerations will lend dignity to the tabernacle, which must always be cared for, also from an artistic standpoint. Obviously it is necessary to follow the provisions of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal in this regard. (197) In any event, final judgment on these matters belongs to the Diocesan Bishop

AH yes! There is always an out. Leave it up to the bishop.

The bishops are the direct descendants sacramentally from the Apostles. The Apostles were given authority, with Peter given the authority to be the final determination of a question; and even he got called on the carpet for a direction he was going.

So I fail to see that “Leave it up to the bishop” is anything but a slam on them. Some may be wrong; but some just may be right even if you don’t like it.

And if you have not seen our church and chapel, then I wonder what your post is getting at since it is in reply to my post, which was written to an over-the-top comment.

 

[rlg94086]

I think I used to attend your church, and the tabernacle location really didn’t bother me. You can see it if you are on the left-hand of the church, because the chapel is open on the side, IIRC. It is not so visible from the right side of the church.

I do prefer the tabernacle in the “high altar” as the pope mentions, but clearly the Blessed Sacrament chapel is “close to the Sanctuary” as described in *Sacramentum Caritatis. *

The bishops are the direct descendants sacramentally from the Apostles. The Apostles were given authority, with Peter given the authority to be the final determination of a question; and even he got called on the carpet for a direction he was going.

So I fail to see that “Leave it up to the bishop” is anything but a slam on them. Some may be wrong; but some just may be right even if you don’t like it.

And if you have not seen our church and chapel, then I wonder what your post is getting at since it is in reply to my post, which was written to an over-the-top comment.

 

[stmaria]

The bishops are the direct descendants sacramentally from the Apostles. The Apostles were given authority, with Peter given the authority to be the final determination of a question; and even he got called on the carpet for a direction he was going.

So I fail to see that “Leave it up to the bishop” is anything but a slam on them. Some may be wrong; but some just may be right even if you don’t like it.
And if you have not seen our church and chapel, then I wonder what your post is getting at since it is in reply to my post, which was written to an over-the-top comment.

otjm I suppose you would obey this bishop as well!

Los Angeles Times:
**"Kneeling “is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin,” **Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary’s by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. **The Diocese of Orange backs Tran’s anti-kneeling edict.**Father Joe Fenton, spokesman for the Diocese of Orange, said the **diocese supports **Tran’s view that disobeying the anti-kneeling edict is a mortal sin. “That’s Father Tran’s interpretation, and he’s the pastor,” he said. “We stand behind Father Tran.”
ON BENDED KNEE: [Teri Carpentier] kneels during a service at St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach. Kneeling, she says, is praying “with our bodies, not just our minds.”; PHOTOGRAPHER: Karen Tapia-Andersen Los Angeles Times; DEFIANT: About a third of the parishioners at a Huntington Beach church are disobeying an order not to kneel. Kneeling, Father Martin Tran says, is a mortal sin and the diocese backs him.;

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/1043056071.html?dids=1043056071:1043056071&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+28%2C+2006&author=David+Haldane&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&edition=&startpage=A.1&desc=A+Ban+on+Kneeling%3F+Some+Catholics+Won%27t+Stand+for+It

 

[dlltoms]

I have always been in missionary Catholic churchs. the tabernacle was always in the center and the priest always did the mass facing away from us. When I went to the boarding Catholic school there was a chapel at the convent and the main church. We went to mass every morning in the convent chapel and the main church on Friday and Sunday mornings. both places had the tabernacle center. But then again they were country Churchs. My first communion and conformation was at a church in san pablo california and the bishop came for that. Even the missions in California had the tabernacle in the center. and mass was always in latin. In the country churchs the people were the choir in the bigger churchs there were choir lofts. I know in Redding california when the little country church burnt down they built a new church Kind of circular but the tabernacle is still in the center. In most places today there can be a church in just about any old building that has been something else. In this town sense I have been here there have been maybe 9 or 10 new churchs and one of them combined with another church and gave up the church building and now it is a store. It was a day spa before that.

 

[rlg94086]

otjm I suppose you would obey this bishop as well!

Los Angeles Times:
**"Kneeling “is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin,” **Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary’s by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. **The Diocese of Orange backs Tran’s anti-kneeling edict.**Father Joe Fenton, spokesman for the Diocese of Orange, said the **diocese supports **Tran’s view that disobeying the anti-kneeling edict is a mortal sin. “That’s Father Tran’s interpretation, and he’s the pastor,” he said. “We stand behind Father Tran.”
ON BENDED KNEE: [Teri Carpentier] kneels during a service at St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach. Kneeling, she says, is praying “with our bodies, not just our minds.”; PHOTOGRAPHER: Karen Tapia-Andersen Los Angeles Times; DEFIANT: About a third of the parishioners at a Huntington Beach church are disobeying an order not to kneel. Kneeling, Father Martin Tran says, is a mortal sin and the diocese backs him.;

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/1043056071.html?dids=1043056071:1043056071&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+28%2C+2006&author=David+Haldane&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&edition=&startpage=A.1&desc=A+Ban+on+Kneeling%3F+Some+Catholics+Won%27t+Stand+for+It

Does Father Tran withhold communion from the “kneelers?” Clearly, he should since he believes kneeling is a mortal sin, and they are committing it right in front of him by kneeling during the consecration. Would the diocese back him up if he withheld communion?

 

[otjm]

Does Father Tran withhold communion from the “kneelers?” Clearly, he should since he believes kneeling is a mortal sin, and they are committing it right in front of him by kneeling during the consecration. Would the diocese back him up if he withheld communion?

Thjis issue is old, and has been thoroughly vetted elsewhere.

 

[rlg94086]

Thjis issue is old, and has been thoroughly vetted elsewhere.

Why are you responding to my post? Why not the person I’m resonding to? I’m just responding to what I have read. I have no idea where it was “vetted” in the past, so maybe you could supply a link. I could then read up on it.

 

[otjm]

Why are you responding to my post? Why not the person I’m resonding to? I’m just responding to what I have read. I have no idea where it was “vetted” in the past, so maybe you could supply a link. I could then read up on it.

With 5766 posts, I would have thought you would have read it. The issue was retracted, the priest apologized, and more recently someone dragged the issue up and made a borderline racist remark about the Vietnamese priest. Once through that was enough.

 

[holy_roamer]

From what I read, Saint Mary’s by the Sea kind of wobbled after Fr. Johnson Retired, and at present the Latin Mass has been discontinued.

Getting back on topic, I am wondering if all this talk about the Tabernacle is pointing to the Aaronic priesthood? That is why I posted a computer generated model of God’s instructions and dimensions for the first Tabernacle, the House of Aaron.

Hebrews chapters 7 and 8 places Christ as High Priest and better than Aaron. “For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.” (Hebrews 7: 17)

Christ is High Priest forever, so how can we have a Tabernacle in our church?

 

[rlg94086]

With 5766 posts, I would have thought you would have read it. The issue was retracted, the priest apologized, and more recently someone dragged the issue up and made a borderline racist remark about the Vietnamese priest. Once through that was enough.

LOL…no, I haven’t read every thread. If I did read it, I don’t remember. It’s the first thing to go.

Thanks for the info. I’m glad the issue was retracted and the priest apologized. That is heartening to hear.

 

[stmaria]

Thjis issue is old, and has been thoroughly vetted elsewhere.

Otjm the question to you was " would you obey that bishop?". You accused me of “slamming” bishops in another post.A bishop is only infallible when he teaches what the Church has always taught. Right? So there may be times to disobey.Do you agree?
My original point on the post was that Pope Benedict has expressed his desire to see the Tabernacles brought back into the sanctuary where they can be seen.However if is is left up to the Bishops that will never happen.

 

[maria_rose]

The Holy of Holies (The Tabernacle and the Blessed Sacrament) must be at the alter and does not ever distract. It is the center of our Church and existence itself…The source and summit of Christian Life…It is our Blessed Lord in the Most August Sacrament of the Alter.
Anyone who speaks otherwise is wrong!
Distracting is:
Talking in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament (like so often happens in churches before and after Mass)…
The priest making himself the “center of attention” while improvising the liturgy…
Handshakes of peace…
Clapping…
Modern music/poor music at Mass (anything that is not chant).

Even in the Jewish Temple the Holy of Holies was at the center in a place of respect. Even the priest did not enter.
Now, the New Covenent/Testament, the veil is “torn down” (protestants confuse this horribly!), and the priest enters the tabenacle of the Most High to administer His Precious Body (and Blood) to Christs people…Truly Christ among us just as it was at the Incarnation and unto Calvary…never again to depart.
I’d say that better be the CENTER of the church…no exceptions.
Any clergy who says otherwise is wrong! The Blessed Sacrament is not only the center of our faith, He IS our faith.

Putting the Blessed Sacrament off to the side is rebellion in the form of “convienience” amongst other excuses. People are putting Christ “off the the side” and “out of sight” because then they can deal better with the guilt of the sin ans sacrelidge that is committed.
That is why in churches with the Blessed Sacrament off to the side or “hidden” there is much liturgical abuse.
Not giving proper dignity to the tabernacle and the Blessed Sacrament It is a grave injustice.

I love your post. Try to teach these precious ideas to Cardinal Mahoney in LA,Ca The La Archdiocese has changed so many churches into modern nothings ;it’s atrocious!
The tabernacles are either off to the side or in a separate room. i lived in LA for 16 years. No thank you. Now in New York my parish has a tabernacle in the main church and a 24/7 adoration chapel with exposed Blessed Sacrament. This is what I call Catholic and Holy.
God bless!

 

[Sure]

Otjm the question to you was " would you obey that bishop?". You accused me of “slamming” bishops in another post.A bishop is only infallible when he teaches what the Church has always taught. Right? So there may be times to disobey.Do you agree?
My original point on the post was that Pope Benedict has expressed his desire to see the Tabernacles brought back into the sanctuary where they can be seen.However if is is left up to the Bishops that will never happen.

I think most everyone would agree that the Bishop should be obeyed so long as he is teaching what the Magisterium teaches.

You could certainly disobey if your Bishop was asking you to do something immoral or illicit.

 

[CrypticWritings]

I love your post. Try to teach these precious ideas to Cardinal Mahoney in LA,Ca The La Archdiocese has changed so many churches into modern nothings ;it’s atrocious!
The tabernacles are either off to the side or in a separate room. i lived in LA for 16 years. No thank you. Now in New York my parish has a tabernacle in the main church and a 24/7 adoration chapel with exposed Blessed Sacrament. This is what I call Catholic and Holy.
God bless!

I lived near that problem city for several years also…what a mess! It is my hope things change there, and now I’m moving on and it is good to be away from there.
Well…I’m glad you survived and maintained your sanity!
God bless you also.

 

[CatholicCajun]

Poor Jesus, we don’t even want Him in our church anymore. And by we I don’t mean everybody, just thost who are tying to take Him out of the church. We are blessed becasue at my former parish the first thing the last pastor did was put the Tabernacle in the middle right behind the altar where it’s supposed to be and the new priest at our new parish has done the same. God Bless.

 

[DustinsDad]

…Christ is High Priest forever, so how can we have a Tabernacle in our church?

Because He is God.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

 

[airforcemom]

Our little church went through having the tabernacle on the side - there were a few who told the priest what they wanted and he did it. When he left in 97 the first thing our new priest did was to put the tabernacle back in the center and bunch of people left but new ones showed up. For some reason some of the churches builts in the 80s put the tabernacle on the side and they do not look like a Cathlic Church should. I love the old churches. I find in the new churches without the tabernacle in the center or in the main church area people are not as quiet and respective before and after mass.