Which book is the word of God?

[confusedcatholic1]

I am sorry about this post friends. I am a 17 y/o who was raised nominally protestant, began attending Methodist and Evangelical churches at 14, started faithfully attending Mass at 15, and decided I wanted to become Catholic. It has been pretty steady since then. I still haven’t received the Sacraments, but I am in RCIA right now. There is a slight problem; I started reading the Noble Qur’an roughly a month and a half ago. I knew once I had finished surah al fatihaah (chapter 1) that I would have to close the book if I wanted to remain comfortable. I, however, like to be open to other ideas and seek honestly the truth, so I continued. After finishing the second chapter it became a pretty passionate reading habit, more so than I have ever had with the Holy Bible (and I remember the summer I decided to attend church, I was reading 15 chapters a day! Of course, that didn’t work). I am now at surah an-naml (27, I think, out of 114, and over halfway done). Ever since I was at the third chapter, I have been having difficulties praying, because I have almost completely lost my faith. The only thing that I have retained are emotional connections (I.E. it feels odd to not pray the rosary or the Morning Prayer), feeling bad since my parents have invested money in my Catholic Faith, and desire not to disappoint Christian friends. I can’t even pray to Jesus without trying to forget that the Qur’an exists because I am pretty confident that it is the Word of God. When I prayed whether it was scripture, I would continually feel a certain ayat. These would always be one of the following: an ayat saying not to ascribe compeers to Allah (SWT), that Jesus never actually claimed Divinity, talking about the Hereafter, or commands to worship Allah, observe your devotional oblingations, pay the Zakat, etc. I don’t really know much about Islam or anything like that, however, I agree with the basic teachings. I have, of course, come across things that made me suspicious, like surah 2:223, and the Mary/Miriam confusion, Our Lady of Guadalupe, but I have not asked my reddit friend about those. She is very knowledgable. My question is, and I didn’t intend to ramble on, and I don’t intend to cause any discord or start debates, how do I know the Bible is the Word of God? BTW, I am a new account so I might be banned from replying for a few days. I hear that that can happen.

 

[Thom18]

I am sorry about this post friends. I am a 17 y/o who was raised nominally protestant, began attending Methodist and Evangelical churches at 14, started faithfully attending Mass at 15, and decided I wanted to become Catholic. It has been pretty steady since then. I still haven’t received the Sacraments, but I am in RCIA right now. There is a slight problem; I started reading the Noble Qur’an roughly a month and a half ago. I knew once I had finished surah al fatihaah (chapter 1) that I would have to close the book if I wanted to remain comfortable. I, however, like to be open to other ideas and seek honestly the truth, so I continued. After finishing the second chapter it became a pretty passionate reading habit, more so than I have ever had with the Holy Bible (and I remember the summer I decided to attend church, I was reading 15 chapters a day! Of course, that didn’t work). I am now at surah an-naml (27, I think, out of 114, and over halfway done). Ever since I was at the third chapter, I have been having difficulties praying, because I have almost completely lost my faith. The only thing that I have retained are emotional connections (I.E. it feels odd to not pray the rosary or the Morning Prayer), feeling bad since my parents have invested money in my Catholic Faith, and desire not to disappoint Christian friends. I can’t even pray to Jesus without trying to forget that the Qur’an exists because I am pretty confident that it is the Word of God. When I prayed whether it was scripture, I would continually feel a certain ayat. These would always be one of the following: an ayat saying not to ascribe compeers to Allah (SWT), that Jesus never actually claimed Divinity, talking about the Hereafter, or commands to worship Allah, observe your devotional oblingations, pay the Zakat, etc. I don’t really know much about Islam or anything like that, however, I agree with the basic teachings. I have, of course, come across things that made me suspicious, like surah 2:223, and the Mary/Miriam confusion, Our Lady of Guadalupe, but I have not asked my reddit friend about those. She is very knowledgable. My question is, and I didn’t intend to ramble on, and I don’t intend to cause any discord or start debates, how do I know the Bible is the Word of God?

We know that the Bible is the Word of God because of the Church. Without the Church, which Jesus gave teaching authority to, we would know nothing. He would quite literally have to reappear every generation in order to continue teaching, and so He built the Church as a visible institution just as His Father had built Israel as a visible kingdom.

 

[Thom18]

Islam relies, to some extent, on the same “vanishing Church” theory that many protestants hold to, which says that the Church was corrupted early on. This sort of thinking turns Jesus into a liar, as His promise, “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” would be invalidated. Such a claim suggests that Satan went on the offensive and managed to put an end to what God began, when it was God’s holy people who were supposed to be doing the vanquishing. This makes God fairly powerless at best, a liar at worst. Most ironically, it leaves Islam susceptible to the same corruption that it claims Christianity succumbed to, leaving the Muslim faith quite fallible.

When you stray from God’s Church, you begin to reach very false conclusions about Him. Islam just happens to be slightly more effective at leading Jesus’ sheep astray than protestantism has been. I urge you to speak to your priest about this and stop reading the Koran.

 

[confusedcatholic1]

But how do we know God has given teaching authority to the Church if we don’t have the Bible to tell us so?

 

[TruthSeeker3]

Pray for truth brother and seek, but not just thru books and mans tradition. You might be very surprised if you pray, meditate and fast for a bit. Ask the father to show you the truth in what you seek. Call on the Holy Spirit to guide you in your quest and fill you. I believe God will lead anyone truth eventually if you truly seek, thirst and have a humble heart. You sound like you are seeking truth which is great.

 

[Thom18]

But how do we know God has given teaching authority to the Church if we don’t have the Bible to tell us so?

The first generation of Christians had the apostles to tell them this. Then, as they saw fit, they began to write down the things they’d seen and been told. From 1 John 1:1-4

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life, the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing this that our joy may be complete.”

Yes, they saw a very important point in detailing the life of Christ and what it is that we should believe, but as logic plainly lays out, action precedes record of the action. Or, that something has to happen before it can be written down and told to others. The apostles wrote to their disciples in order to teach them such things, but such events as the Great Commission, though recorded in Scripture, took place outside of and before Scripture. All that Scripture does in this sense is tell us how something happened.

As for how we know this without the Bible: this is a question we’d have to ask Islam as well, isn’t it? If Mohammad never wrote anything down, how would we “know” that he had a valid public revelation for the world?

 

[confusedcatholic1]

Islam relies, to some extent, on the same “vanishing Church” theory that many protestants hold to, which says that the Church was corrupted early on. This sort of thinking turns Jesus into a liar, as His promise, “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” would be invalidated. Such a claim suggests that Satan went on the offensive and managed to put an end to what God began, when it was God’s holy people who were supposed to be doing the vanquishing. This makes God fairly powerless at best, a liar at worst. Most ironically, it leaves Islam susceptible to the same corruption that it claims Christianity succumbed to, leaving the Muslim faith quite fallible.

This is true, to some extent, however, this argument relies on the Bible, and the Bible is known to have been altered and changed through translation, intentionally at times, by Christians and Jews. This is exactly what Islam seems to say. Also, I don’t know where but in the Qur’an it suggests that pain is felt in the skin, which is scientifically accurate. It is undeniable that it wasn’t until the writings of St Paul that the Divinity of Jesus was stressed and in the gospels Jesus says the Father is greater than Himself, He doesn’t know the day of Judgement, and He prays to the Father. Needless, to say some parts of the Gospels claim Divinity. Further, the Jews are recorded in the gospels to have expected Elijah, the Messiah, and the “Prophet” like Moses from Deuteronomy. Who is this Prophet, it is said that both Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) came with a law, were born under ordinary circumstances, and to be quite frank, I find it quite doubt-able that in a largely polytheistic society, a man would come up with strict monotheism and so passionately. Some say Muhammad borrowed from Christians and Jews, but why would he desire to start his own religion. He was also illiterate and his statements in the hadith are found to have a completely different style than the words of the Noble Qur’an. Later in your reply, thanks by the way, and I don’t intend to come off as rude or argumentative, but these are important things; you say I should not read the Qur’an, but shouldn’t I be open to the Truth. I know just because I like the gospel message, doesn’t mean it is true. I am obviously an errant person, so I should always be open to claims of Truth other than the one I hold true

 

[confusedcatholic1]

I prayed whether the book was true and I felt called to read verses I hadn’t yet reached and they seemed to be speaking to me! I don’t remember many but 16:18 and this one that said not to ascribe compeers to Allah (SWT)

 

[confusedcatholic1]

Because it was recorded shortly after, as the bible was, and it makes freakily scientifically accurate statements, doesn’t have contradictions, and it seems to be suggested by the Bible

 

[drac16]

The Qur’an is undoubtedly a fascinating book. However, there is a contradiction between the Qur’an and the character of Muhammad. The Qur’an says that there is no compulsion in religion, but Muhammad said that a person should be killed if they leave Islam. This leads to many people who want to leave the deen, but the threat of execution prevents them. They follow it out of fear. Only a deeply sinister religion would keep people following it out of fear.

 

[confusedcatholic1]

Assalaamualaikum! Thanks Khan for joining.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Assalaamualaikum! Thanks Khan for joining.

You say you’re a Catholic and are thanking someone of another faith who just insulted the Catholic Church?

 

[SalamKhan]

The Qur’an says that there is no compulsion in religion, but Muhammad said that a person should be killed if they leave Islam.

The Qur’an & Hadith aren’t on the same level. It is beyond reasonable doubt that the Qur’an was uttered by Prophet Muhammad (S) to his followers. With Hadith, it depends. There is mutawatir (mass transmitted) Hadith, which is meant to be beyond reasonable doubt, and so Muslims aren’t supposed to deny these Hadiths, although there is a dispute as to how many mass transmitted Hadiths there are, or if there are any at all!

Then there is ahad (singular/isolated) Hadith, of which there are different levels:

1. Gharib- one chain of transmission
2. Aziz- two chains of transmission
3. Mashur- three chains of transmission

These chains can be evaluated & concluded to be sahih (authentic), hasan (good), daif (weak), & mawdu (fabricated). Even an authentic chain gives 51% level of certainty. Hence, why many scholars also reject death penalty for apostasy, without much backlash or criticism as far as I’m aware.

 

[Fauken]

It’s circular, they say the New Testament points to the church & the church approves of the New Testament. Keep in mind, if the New Testament does point to the church, then no wonder the church approved of it, right? To justify their growing power, the gradual deification of their institute, their amassing of wealth?

You should bear in mind that while this is the Non-Catholic subforum, this is still part of CAF. You’re not allowed to insult the Church, nor proselytize people to your non-Catholic faith.

 

[confusedcatholic1]

No I’m thanking him for joining the conversation. He will hopefully offer some opinions better than mine since I’m sure he know more. This way there can be dialogue. Don’t make it what it is not

 

[SalamKhan]

who just insulted the Catholic Church?

How was it an insult? Have you not studied the extent of the church’s power in the Middle Ages, & what it did to get there?

Unless you’re referring to what I said about the New Testament canon, because that wasn’t an insult either. It’s a circular argument I’ve observed Catholics make.

 

[Fauken]

He will hopefully offer some opinions better than mine since I’m sure he know more. This way there can be dialogue.

Dialogue? What is there to dialogue about? He is Muslim. He interprets the Quran, the holy book of Islam, as a Muslim. Islam rejects the divinity of Christ. They reject the Trinity. The two most fundamental aspects of Christianity. To be blunt, what business do you have reading a book which denies such important and fundamental concepts to Christianity for spiritual support? If the Quran gets those important things wrong, what else then is it getting wrong?

 

[confusedcatholic1]

Let’s be honest here, who am I to form an opinion of a book I have not read? Who am I to criticize a viewpoint I am not familiar with? I am trying to think before drawing conclusions.

 

[Thom18]

confusedcatholic1:

But how do we know God has given teaching authority to the Church if we don’t have the Bible to tell us so?

It’s circular, they say the New Testament points to the church & the church approves of the New Testament. Keep in mind, if the New Testament does point to the church, then no wonder the church approved of it, right? To justify their growing power, the gradual deification of their institute, their amassing of wealth?

The Koran points to Islam, and Islam points to the Koran. If you have a problem with the Catholic Church canonizing Scripture which coincides with orthodox Christianity, then be logically consistent and apply that same standard to your own religion.

 

[Fauken]

What of if?

You believe the Quran is the word of God, something which Christianity rejects. You are then going to support the Quran as such, as is expected.

This may be a Catholic Forum. But who are you to tell him what to do?

I’m not telling him what to do. If anything I’m telling him what he’s doing is unwise.

Let’s be honest here, who am I to form an opinion of a book I have not read? Who am I to criticize a viewpoint I am not familiar with? I am trying to think before drawing conclusions.

I can’t even pray to Jesus without trying to forget that the Qur’an exists because I am pretty confident that it is the Word of God.

however, I agree with the basic teachings.

Does the opinion of the Church not matter on this? Did you not know before reading it that Muslims were not Christian and thus reject Christ’s divinity, the very God who you think the Quran is inspired by?