Which church contains the "all truth" that Christ promised us?

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

Let’s look at 1 Tim 3:13-16 for a minute:

1. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2. These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
3. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
4. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So, here Paul has just given directions/guidelines to Timothy for the leadership of the local churches. He is writing ahead in the hopes that he can go quickly to them. But, if he has to wait, he wanted them to know how to behave in the “house of God”, which is the “church of the living God”, which is the "pillar and ground of the truth. He finishes by explaining the “mystery of godliness” which is essentially the incarnation of Christ and His resurrection from the dead.

Now, I don’t see here what you claim for this verse, “*He gave his church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth (1 Tim 3:15).” *Your quote from above. This passage of Scripture actually identifies all believers as being the Church. Notice house of God = church of God = pillar and ground of truth.

Notice that Paul wrote this letter to Timothy whom he had left in Ephesus while he himself had gone on to Macedonia. He wrote this epistle approx 66 or 67 AD.

I Tim 1:3 "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine"

Since Paul is writing first specifically to Timothy to teach the Ephesians and other churches, we can easily conclude that these churches together (with the believers making up the individual congregations) constitute the house of God (the dwelling place of God), the church of God (one body, many members) which is the pillar (holds up the roof) and ground (again, base or foundation) of truth. That truth is Jesus Christ. The church is to hold Christ up so that the world may know and experience the God-man Jesus Christ.

“All truth” is summed up in Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Doctrines outside of the gospel are simply that - doctrines, not necessarily to be considered as “truth”. There is a difference.

Hi ahimsaman72!

Again, while your post offers an interesting personal interpretation of scripture it doesn’t really address the topic of the thread.

If you’d like to start a new thread to discuss possible interpretations of scripture I’d meet you there, but the moderators here are quick to close threads that wander off topic. I’d like to keep this one open.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Christ promised us ALL truth (John 16:13). He gave his church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth (1 Tim 3:15). Which church do you believe contains ALL truth as Jesus promised?

Some of you may be tempted to say that it’s simply the church of “all believers” but since conflicting and contradictory doctrine exist in the “all believers” church there is, at best, SOME truth and some error, not ALL truth. ALL truth is what we were promised. Where do you believe it can be found?

In Christ,
Nancy

In all my posts here, I’ve stayed on topic by discussing what you claim about these verses. First, you claim that Christ promised us “all truth” which I explained. Second, you claim that 1 Tim. 3:15 was related to “He gave His church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth”. I explained that I saw none of those words or concepts in the passage you quoted.

If we can’t even get to the source and understand the source of your claims, then obviously nothing else that follows will achieve any “truth”.

So, I can’t answer a question that has no basis to begin with because you ask, “which church”. My answer based on that would be - not one separate individual denomination or church body contains “all truth”, because the “all truth” you are speculating about is ambiguous, unless we look at the verses specifically one by one to see the meaning of “all truth”.

You have to define it before you can base any claims on it.

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

In all my posts here, I’ve stayed on topic by discussing what you claim about these verses. First, you claim that Christ promised us “all truth” which I explained. Second, you claim that 1 Tim. 3:15 was related to “He gave His church the job of upholding, protecting and defending that truth”. I explained that I saw none of those words or concepts in the passage you quoted.

If we can’t even get to the source and understand the source of your claims, then obviously nothing else that follows will achieve any “truth”.

So, I can’t answer a question that has no basis to begin with because you ask, “which church”. My answer based on that would be - not one separate individual denomination or church body contains “all truth”, because the “all truth” you are speculating about is ambiguous, unless we look at the verses specifically one by one to see the meaning of “all truth”.

You have to define it before you can base any claims on it.

Peace…

Hi ahimsaman72!

I understand “all truth” to mean God’s full revelation to mankind. What do you understand it to mean?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi ahimsaman72!

I understand “all truth” to mean God’s full revelation to mankind. What do you understand it to mean?

In Christ,
Nancy

As I explained earlier…my understanding is that the “all truth” used in that one passage of Scripture would include things that glorify Christ and testify of Him - that’s it. That was the explanation given by Christ in John 16. That’s what I am going with.

It should not be confused with the concept of “all doctrines and beliefs” are the truth. That Scripture also says that the Holy Spirit will GUIDE them into all truth. It does not say that the Holy Spirit will dictate to them word for word what He wants to tell them.

Of course, my understanding is that Scripture contains the fullness of the revelation of Christ and that there is no need for any other revelation. We already have it.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi ahimsaman72!

ahimsaman72:

As I explained earlier…my understanding is that the “all truth” used in that one passage of Scripture would include things that glorify Christ and testify of Him - that’s it. That was the explanation given by Christ in John 16. That’s what I am going with.

Is it possible that your understanding is in error?

It should not be confused with the concept of “all doctrines and beliefs” are the truth. That Scripture also says that the Holy Spirit will GUIDE them into all truth. It does not say that the Holy Spirit will dictate to them word for word what He wants to tell them.

The word for word dictation idea is not something we, as Catholics, believe. However, I would have to disagree that “all truth” does not include all that we are to believe. To exclude those beliefs which are true would make it not “all” truth but rather “some” truth, which is not what scripture says. In order for it to be “all” truth it must, by definition, include all that is true.

Of course, my understanding is that Scripture contains the fullness of the revelation of Christ and that there is no need for any other revelation. We already have it.

I respectfully disagree with your understanding in this area as it is not Scriptural and therefore self-refuting. That’s really for another thread though.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi ahimsaman72!

Is it possible that your understanding is in error?

Of course, I’m a fallible human being just like everyone else in the world.

The word for word dictation idea is not something we, as Catholics, believe. However, I would have to disagree that “all truth” does not include all that we are to believe. To exclude those beliefs which are true would make it not “all” truth but rather “some” truth, which is not what scripture says. In order for it to be “all” truth it must, by definition, include all that is true.

I respectfully disagree with your understanding in this area as it is not Scriptural and therefore self-refuting. That’s really for another thread though.

In Christ,
Nancy

Many times I see this “self-refuting” concept said about sola scriptura, while many Catholics don’t realize that saying, “this is true, because the bishop told me so” can also be considered “self-refuting” from a Traditional aspect. It is the same concept. I don’t believe either are self-refuting, but form a logical basis or foundation for basing beliefs upon.

 

[RBushlow]

joehar:

**SPOKENWORD:
I chose other. The only perfect church exists only in the kingdom of heaven

Agreed
The only perfect church is the Church which Jesus Christ founded.

 

[workinprogress]

Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep. He gave the keys of heaven to Peter. His office was passed on to a successor. None of these were given to Luther, Calvin, Zwingley, Knox, K. Henry 8th, Joe Smith, Mohammed, Mary Baker Eddy, or anyone else who though they could do better but have not. Private interpretation of the Bible is preached against in Acts 8, 2 Peter 3:16–, and Genesis 3:16–. Why? Because it is common sense that people can BS themselves and pretend they’re on a holy mission or they are being compassionate. That’s why we need the Truth. Since Jesus came to bring the Truth (and to die for us so we MAY be saved) and he set up a ministry to act and speak through, Truth can only be found in the One, Holy, and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church. He gave it the Holy Spirit and His gifts which include knowledge, wisdom, etc. to make sure we have the Truth. We cannot help others and do true social justice efficiently without the Truth to guide us. The Holy Spirit does not play mind games with us (and so the other faiths not only don’t have all the Truth, they teach half-truths and lies–the other Christian faiths, since the first heretical ones, have these malevolent traits; by the grace of God, not the people who don’t know better)–that’s Satan’s biz.
For better coverage on the topic of these modern heresies of modernism (which includes indifference–which is also intellectual stupidity in saying two conflicting beliefs can be truths or that they can coexist), read “Liberalism is a Sin” by a cleric who lived around the time when modernism was beginning.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi ahimsaman72!

Originally Posted by Catholic4aReasn
Is it possible that your understanding is in error?

Of course, I’m a fallible human being just like everyone else in the world.

Is the holy Spirit leading anyone to a correct understanding of his word?

Many times I see this “self-refuting” concept said about sola scriptura, while many Catholics don’t realize that saying, “this is true, because the bishop told me so” can also be considered “self-refuting” from a Traditional aspect. It is the same concept. I don’t believe either are self-refuting, but form a logical basis or foundation for basing beliefs upon.

“This is true because the bishop told me so” is not Catholic teaching.

Sola scriptura is self-refuting because it’s not in the bible, which contradicts the whole idea of sola Scriptura.

As you indicated above, that individuals cannot infallibley interpret scripture, sola Scriptura fails as any foundation upon which one bases beliefs. If it’s possible that one’s interpretation of scripture is wrong then it’s possible that what one believe to be true is, in fact, not true. Yet truth must be knowable if it’s what sets us free. If we can’t be certain what truth is we can’t be certain that we are free. Therefore there must be a source, outside of scripture, which can guarentee Christians a correct understanding of God’s word. Catholics believe that this is the role of the Church under the direct guidance of the holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[quintessential5]

jimmy:

I think you should have atleast put the Eastern Orthodox on the thread. They are the only other ones that have a legitimate arguement in my view.

I second that.

 

[excatholic]

Eph4:4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in *you all. I like to refer to this as the seven ones. The word body means church and Paul says there is only one, not mine not yours but ours. It is the body of believers in Christ, and it is the church he is returning for, his bride. It is a jewish custom for the bridegroom to go and prepare a place for the bride and groom to live. John 14:1"Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." God is Love.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

excatholic:

Eph4:4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in *you all. I like to refer to this as the seven ones. The word body means church and Paul says there is only one, not mine not yours but ours. It is the body of believers in Christ, and it is the church he is returning for, his bride. It is a jewish custom for the bridegroom to go and prepare a place for the bride and groom to live. John 14:1"Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." God is Love.

Hi excatholic!

How are you applying this passage to the topic of this thread?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Catholic4aReasn:

If the disciples were promised all truth and they are the foundation on which Christ built his church (Eph 2:19-20) why would the church not then contain all the truth that Christ has revealed?

How does the church function in the world today as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) without all truth?

In Christ,
Nancy

Our Lord can give it to His Church when she has need of it, and when she can bear it ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Katholikos:

Then “Truth” is unknowable in this life – and we can’t even be sure what’s required for us to get to heaven. You’re saying that Christ was incapable of ensuring that the Apostles taught the unadulterated Truth to the Church and that the Church in turn taught the Truth of His revelation down through the centuries – and still teaches the Truth. Or, maybe the Apostles taught the Truth, but it ended there. Only those taught personally by the Apostles knew the truth. We’re outta luck.

Guess I’ll eat some worms. Shoulda stayed an atheist.

You’ve gotta get over the false notion that everything Jesus taught is in the NT.

JMJ Jay

I’m saying no such thing - see post 33 in reply to an OP who asked this​

I know where to go for the belief that Our Lord is the Truth: Scripture say so, in John 14 - but which document says the Church has all the truth ?
If no document says this - why believe what is not taught ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

“The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.” This pretty much says that all Truth is contained in the Church.

Peace be with you.

I don’t see the word “all” there ​

 

[Church_Militant]

Why?



There is just so much more to real Christianity than most people see. It’s all here in the Catholic faith. Man, read the Catechism, you’ll never see the truths of christianity expressed more eloquently & concisely.

 

[MariaG]

I think there are some who are talking past each other. There is a difference between pillar of truth or even fullness of truth and all truth.

I voted for the Catholic Church, but after reading Gottles’ explanation, I agree with him. While the Catholic Church does teach the truth on that which has been revealed, there is always room for new understanding of that which has been revealed. So although the Catholic Church teaches all truth that she knows, the Catholic Church may not yet have a* full* understanding of that truth. Therefore, the Catholic Church may not have “all” of the truth yet. The Catholic Church just has the most available to men at this time.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[vickster]

I think when we are asked this question that you must use “church” in different terms. The “church” is not a building, not a certain religion. The “church” is God’s people. When Jesus comes back for His church, he is going to come for his people, not an afiliation with a certain group.

So I choose other as my response.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

MariaG:

I think there are some who are talking past each other. There is a difference between pillar of truth or even fullness of truth and all truth.

I voted for the Catholic Church, but after reading Gottles’ explanation, I agree with him. While the Catholic Church does teach the truth on that which has been revealed, there is always room for new understanding of that which has been revealed. So although the Catholic Church teaches all truth that she knows, the Catholic Church may not yet have a* full* understanding of that truth. Therefore, the Catholic Church may not have “all” of the truth yet. The Catholic Church just has the most available to men at this time.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Hi Maria!

I agree and disagree.

I agree that our understanding of the truth develops over time. After all, Jesus promised that the holy Spirit would guide his Church to all truth, not hand it over all at once.

I disagree that the Catholic Church has “the most” truth available to men at this time. Since the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth I’d submit that she has all the truth that is available to men at this time. As time progresses she will continue to grow in her understanding of the truth. Whatever truth has been revealed to mankind exists within the Church.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

vickster:

I think when we are asked this question that you must use “church” in different terms. The “church” is not a building, not a certain religion. The “church” is God’s people. When Jesus comes back for His church, he is going to come for his people, not an afiliation with a certain group.

So I choose other as my response.

Hi vickster!

In this thread we are speaking of the same, exact church of Matt 16:18, the church that Jesus himself founded. That church is not a general sort of church to which you may be referring. The church founded by Christ did not contain conflicting and contradictory teachings all claiming to be the truth. The church that Christ established had one set of beliefs, its member spoke as with one mouth (Rom 15:6), not the thousands of conflicting and contradictory mouths as the “church of all believers” speaks with today. The church that Jesus established agreed with one another, there were no divisions and they were perfectly united in mind and thought (1 Cor 1:10), not the thousands of disagreements that exist in the “church of all believers” that exists today.

The idea that the church that Jesus founded is simply all believers regardless of what they profess as truth is simply contrary to what God’s word tells us the church that Jesus founded is. While all believers may be, in some way, united to Christ’s Church, there is only one whose members speak as with one mouth, agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among them and that they may be perfectly united in mind and thought, professing one faith and one baptism. History and scripture bear out that this is the Catholic Church.

It stands to reason that the Church that Jesus founded would know that she was the Church that Jesus founded and profess it. There are a couple of other churches making that claim, but the fact that they were founded by human beings outside of Israel within the last 500 years or less proves that they can’t be the church founded by Jesus Christ in Israel 2000 years ago. Only the Catholic Church fits that bill. Only the Catholic Church’s teachings remain unchanged for 2000 years. All other churches have changed that which they previously taught to be true.

I invite you to look closely and prayerfully at the Catholic Church. Perhaps God is using this forum to call you home!

In Christ,
Nancy