Which church contains the "all truth" that Christ promised us?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Psa 86:15 But thou, O Lord, [art] a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.​

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These are the verses that came up when I searched using the phrase “full of truth”

as for “fulness”:

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

1Cor 10:26 For the earth [is] the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.

1Cor 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof:

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Any “fullness” going, is Christ’s - never the Church’s.

The notion that the Church contains all truth also has the effect of making her unlike Christ, because it relieves her of needing to “grow in wisdom and stature”, which He did.

[cont’d…]

 

[MariaG]

Hi Nancy,

posted by Catholic4aReason

Since the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth I’d submit that she has all the truth that is available to men at this time. As time progresses she will continue to grow in her understanding of the truth.

I would agree with that statement. I think I said the same thing, I just approached it from the other direction. Kind of like is the glass half empty or half full. At least that is my mind works .

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…cont’d, ended]

If she had “all truth” already, she would never be at a loss how to behave in all controversies. she would never have any need to apologise for anything, because she would always have acted rightly the first time. That the Pope has apologised many times for Catholic shortcomings, does not suggest that the CC has always known what to do or how to act or what to teach. The Church is fully human - so she makes mistakes. So she does not have “all truth”.​

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

…cont’d, ended]

If she had “all truth” already, she would never be at a loss how to behave in all controversies. she would never have any need to apologise for anything, because she would always have acted rightly the first time. That the Pope has apologised many times for Catholic shortcomings, does not suggest that the CC has always known what to do or how to act or what to teach. The Church is fully human - so she makes mistakes. So she does not have “all truth”.​

Hi Gottle of Geer!

You are confusing obeying the truth with having the truth. The behavior of individuals within the Church does not effect, in any way, the truth of what the Church teaches. The failure of individuals within the Church to do what is right does not effect, in anyway, the truth of what the Church teaches.

The Church is fully human. That’s why mistakes are made by individuals within her. But, like Christ, she is also fully divine. The holy Spirit divinely guides her to all truth, and that truth remains truth even when sinful individuals disagree, disobey or otherwise diss her in any way.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Gottle of Geer!

You are confusing obeying the truth with having the truth. The behavior of individuals within the Church does not effect, in any way, the truth of what the Church teaches. The failure of individuals within the Church to do what is right does not effect, in anyway, the truth of what the Church teaches.

The Church is fully human. That’s why mistakes are made by individuals within her. But, like Christ, she is also fully divine. The holy Spirit divinely guides her to all truth, and that truth remains truth even when sinful individuals disagree, disobey or otherwise diss her in any way.

In Christ,
Nancy

With some of this, I agree entirely - well said.​

But with the first paragraph - no. Not quite. ISTM that Truth is a Person, not a thing one “has”; but a person one follows. Not something one can possess in its totality from the very beginning, but a Person one comes to know, over the course of time, and never fully in this life. As St. Paul, says, “…we see through a glass darkly - but then, face to face.” “We know in part, and we love in part, but then we shall know as we are known.” So ISTM that God knows us, fully, here and now, but that we do not know God, or ourselves - or indeed our neighbour - here and now.

“Head-knowledge” & “heart-knowledge” are often separated. They ought not to be. In this life, the Church as a whole always has a problem uniting them, because she is not perfect in this world; in the true life, she is, but not here on earth. Here, she is still a pilgrim Church, on the way to her heavenly destination, her true home. So she is still less than she should be - like St. Paul, she “has not yet attained to it,” she “is not yet perfect”. If she were sinless, she would be free of all errors of knowledge and of conduct - as she is still not sinless, but always in need of constant conversion, renewal, reform, penance, purgation, it follows that the unnatural lack of union between her head & her heart has still not been overcome. But one day, it will be. Not yet though.

So, if the truth is not obeyed perfectly and fully, it is not known perfectly & fully. For ethics & knowledge cannot rightly be separated. To do so, is not Biblical, but a pagan Greek tendency, not assimilated into the Biblical revelation, as some Greek thought is.

In the Bible, knowing God = obeying God; they are different aspects of the same thing. That is why it is unnatural to separate them. Our Lord knew the Father, and obeyed Him. Our failures of knowledge impair our obedience; & our disobedience shows we do not know Him. ##

 

[Dismas2004]

I voted other.

First, I would say that out of the choices the Catholic Church posses the most, also they, we are the only ones that possess the possibilty of attaining that degree of ALL truth.

As for my answer, the only ones who know all, and have all truth right now are the Church Triumphant. Christ tells us He will lead us into all truth. That will happen either at our death or at His second coming.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

## With some of this, I agree entirely - well said.

But with the first paragraph - no. Not quite. ISTM that Truth is a Person, not a thing one “has”; but a person one follows. Not something one can possess in its totality from the very beginning, but a Person one comes to know, over the course of time, and never fully in this life. As St. Paul, says, “…we see through a glass darkly - but then, face to face.” “We know in part, and we love in part, but then we shall know as we are known.” So ISTM that God knows us, fully, here and now, but that we do not know God, or ourselves - or indeed our neighbour - here and now.

“Head-knowledge” & “heart-knowledge” are often separated. They ought not to be. In this life, the Church as a whole always has a problem uniting them, because she is not perfect in this world; in the true life, she is, but not here on earth. Here, she is still a pilgrim Church, on the way to her heavenly destination, her true home. So she is still less than she should be - like St. Paul, she “has not yet attained to it,” she “is not yet perfect”. If she were sinless, she would be free of all errors of knowledge and of conduct - as she is still not sinless, but always in need of constant conversion, renewal, reform, penance, purgation, it follows that the unnatural lack of union between her head & her heart has still not been overcome. But one day, it will be. Not yet though.

So, if the truth is not obeyed perfectly and fully, it is not known perfectly & fully. For ethics & knowledge cannot rightly be separated. To do so, is not Biblical, but a pagan Greek tendency, not assimilated into the Biblical revelation, as some Greek thought is.

In the Bible, knowing God = obeying God; they are different aspects of the same thing. That is why it is unnatural to separate them. Our Lord knew the Father, and obeyed Him. Our failures of knowledge impair our obedience; & our disobedience shows we do not know Him. ##

Hi Gottle of Geer!

I totally agree that, ultimately Truth is a Person, Jesus Christ!! Truth is also all that God has revealed to mankind. Has God revealed it all? No. But that which he has revealed he has revealed without error and keeps it without error in His Church, His Body.

Disobedience is individual. It seems that you are attributing to the Church as a whole that which must rightly be attributed to individuals within the Church. Our failures are just that, they are ours, individually. While they certainly effect the Church as the Body of Christ they do not effect the truth of what the Church teaches.

If the truth is not obeyed perfectly it is not known perfectly, …by the individual. But it has to be known, otherwise it wouldn’t be truth. If it is truth it is something that has been revealed by God and is upheld, protected and defended by His Church. That’s not to say that individuals within the Church are going to do the very best job in the world of teaching the truth or obeying the truth or understanding the truth, but the truth is there nonetheless and it’s unchangable.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Dismas2004:

I voted other.

First, I would say that out of the choices the Catholic Church posses the most, also they, we are the only ones that possess the possibilty of attaining that degree of ALL truth.

As for my answer, the only ones who know all, and have all truth right now are the Church Triumphant. Christ tells us He will lead us into all truth. That will happen either at our death or at His second coming.

Hi Dismas2004!

I think that the “all truth” that Jesus was saying the holy Spirit would guide his Church to is all revealed truth, not all truth that exists.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Dismas2004]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Dismas2004!

I think that the “all truth” that Jesus was saying the holy Spirit would guide his Church to is all revealed truth, not all truth that exists.

In Christ,
Nancy

I agree, hence we ae not there yet and won’t be until death/second coming. Revealed truth = All truth. Has everything ben revealed to us?

 

[Randell]

RBushlow:
The only perfect church is the Church which Jesus Christ founded.
You should have stated that it was given to Paul. Which was RC first pope.

 

[Randell]

MariaG:

I think there are some who are talking past each other. There is a difference between pillar of truth or even fullness of truth and all truth.

I voted for the Catholic Church, but after reading Gottles’ explanation, I agree with him. While the Catholic Church does teach the truth on that which has been revealed, there is always room for new understanding of that which has been revealed. So although the Catholic Church teaches all truth that she knows, the Catholic Church may not yet have a* full* understanding of that truth. Therefore, the Catholic Church may not have “all” of the truth yet. The Catholic Church just has the most available to men at this time.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

We can only go on what we have. Saying that there is more truth is like saying the Detroit Lions will someday win the Superbowl.

We don’t know if that will ever happen.

 

[Randell]

vickster:

I think when we are asked this question that you must use “church” in different terms. The “church” is not a building, not a certain religion. The “church” is God’s people. When Jesus comes back for His church, he is going to come for his people, not an afiliation with a certain group.

So I choose other as my response.

The afiliation is with HIS group. The only group which is Peter’s group whom God gave his church on earth. The Roman Catholic Church.

There can only be 1 church and 1 doctrine.(John10v16) “one fold of sheep one shepard”
Matt4v4 "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that is spoken out of the mouth of God. Not every 5th word, or we can only take some of the scripture as truth. We must take all of it. New and Old Testiment. (2Tim3v16)

There can be NO conflict in Doctrine. John16v13 John8V32
IF there was more than one truth then which truth could it be?

 

[Randell]

…cont’d, ended]

If she had “all truth” already, she would never be at a loss how to behave in all controversies. she would never have any need to apologise for anything, because she would always have acted rightly the first time. That the Pope has apologised many times for Catholic shortcomings, does not suggest that the CC has always known what to do or how to act or what to teach. The Church is fully human - so she makes mistakes. So she does not have “all truth”.​

If 10 people were at the seen of the accident they would report it 10 different ways because they are human. The Catholic church as all truth. However since humans are in charge of that truth some of them dont use it the right way. Does not mean that the RC church has part truth or some truth. When has the POPE apologized for short commings?

 

[MariaG]

posted by Randell

You should have stated that it was given to Paul. Which was RC first pope.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Dismas2004!

Dismas2004:

I agree, hence we ae not there yet and won’t be until death/second coming. Revealed truth = All truth. Has everything ben revealed to us?

I think you may be missing the point of my question. In bringing up that truth which has not been revealed to mankind you are changing the focus of my question. I’d like to try to stay on topic here.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Randell!

Randell:

You should have stated that it was given to Paul. Which was RC first pope.

Actually, that would be Peter.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi ahimsaman72!

Is the holy Spirit leading anyone to a correct understanding of his word?

Yes, He is. Question then becomes, “Who is being led?”. That’s debateable. There’s a difference between being led to the truth and understanding the truth.

Again, as I have stated many times, there is a spiritual condition called “spiritual blindness”. The god of this world has blinded some. It’s a simple fact that is to be found in Scripture. 2 Cor. 4:4 speaks of this. “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

There are also other verses which re-state the same principle.

God is absolutely sovereign. He does as He wills. Nothing happens that He is not involved in. He hardens some and He softens some. Satan has blinded some to the truth in the fact that people let themselves be consumed by sin.

“This is true because the bishop told me so” is not Catholic teaching.

Do you hold their teachings as infallible or not? Catholics hold their magisterium as infallible. Protestants hold their Bible as infallible. Catholics believe what the magisterium teaches. Protestants believe what the Bible teaches. That is a pretty accurate view.

Sola scriptura is self-refuting because it’s not in the bible, which contradicts the whole idea of sola Scriptura.

But it is in the Bible, beginning at 1 Tim. 3:16

As you indicated above, that individuals cannot infallibley interpret scripture, sola Scriptura fails as any foundation upon which one bases beliefs. If it’s possible that one’s interpretation of scripture is wrong then it’s possible that what one believe to be true is, in fact, not true. Yet truth must be knowable if it’s what sets us free. If we can’t be certain what truth is we can’t be certain that we are free. Therefore there must be a source, outside of scripture, which can guarentee Christians a correct understanding of God’s word. Catholics believe that this is the role of the Church under the direct guidance of the holy Spirit.

No person or institution can infallibly interpret Scripture. Scripture itself is God-breathed. It is the very words of God. It is entirely inspired by God. It alone in its original manuscripts is without error because it was God-breathed. No person or organization can claim this.

Truth is knowable. It’s in a person, not a belief. Truth is Jesus Christ. He said plainly in John 14:6, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life…” Too many look outside of Christ Himself (who alone is immortal and divine) for truth that is knowable to man. Read here what the Catechism itself says:

“40 Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so. We can name God only by taking creatures as our starting point, and in accordance with our limited human ways of knowing and thinking.”

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi ahimsaman72!

ahimsaman72:

Yes, He is. Question then becomes, “Who is being led?”. That’s debateable. There’s a difference between being led to the truth and understanding the truth.

How can one be certain that one is accurately understanding the truth?

But it is in the Bible, beginning at 1 Tim. 3:16

This verse speaks specifically to the usefullness of scripture, not its sufficiency.

No person or institution can infallibly interpret Scripture.

Truth is knowable.

The first statement here renders the second impossible. If no person can be certain that the holy Spirit is guiding him to an understanding of scripture that is without error then it’s absolutely impossible to know truth with any certainty. If it’s possible that one’s understanding of scripture is in error then it’s possible that what one believes to be true about scripture is also in error.

The bible is useless without an infallible interpreter. What good is God’s word if one is misunderstanding and misapplying it?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi ahimsaman72!

How can one be certain that one is accurately understanding the truth?

I could ask you the same question. How do you know you are? By the papacy? You are relying on something outside of yourself, just like me. You claim truth is found in the RCC, I claim truth is found in the Bible.

This verse speaks specifically to the usefullness of scripture, not its sufficiency.

The first statement here renders the second impossible. If no person can be certain that the holy Spirit is guiding him to an understanding of scripture that is without error then it’s absolutely impossible to know truth with any certainty. If it’s possible that one’s understanding of scripture is in error then it’s possible that what one believes to be true about scripture is also in error.

The bible is useless without an infallible interpreter. What good is God’s word if one is misunderstanding and misapplying it?

In Christ,
Nancy

Oh, contrare’, my dear friend. You still claim that we can know all truth, but continue to disregard the Biblical concept of spiritual blindness. Does that concept mean anything to you? The Bible is simply God’s word given to men as a revelation to all mankind. In and of itself, it is God’s word and is understandable. The real purpose of Christianity itself is the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world. That gospel of Jesus Christ is found in Scripture. That gospel saves. No other gospel will do, not the gospel according to Rome, not the gospel according to John Calvin, not your gospel or mine.

 

[Randell]

ahimsaman72:

I could ask you the same question. How do you know you are? By the papacy? You are relying on something outside of yourself, just like me. You claim truth is found in the RCC, I claim truth is found in the Bible.

Oh, contrare’, my dear friend. You still claim that we can know all truth, but continue to disregard the Biblical concept of spiritual blindness. Does that concept mean anything to you? The Bible is simply God’s word given to men as a revelation to all mankind. In and of itself, it is God’s word and is understandable. The real purpose of Christianity itself is the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world. That gospel of Jesus Christ is found in Scripture. That gospel saves. No other gospel will do, not the gospel according to Rome, not the gospel according to John Calvin, not your gospel or mine.

I would trust 2000 years of interpretation through apostles, profits, and saints over you. This intrepatation has not changed in the BODY of the church. You may have heard Catholics themselves interpreting it different, but the Church itself has not misinterpretated it because it was handed to her through Peter the first pope of the RC church, whom Jesus entrusted. Who backs all the interpretations you have?