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wisdomseeker
Guest
Alleluia! J4 just saw the light.
:dancing:
Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?
- Status
J
justasking4
Guest
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wisdomseeker
Guest
when do you start RCIA? i bet you cant wait to kneel before our Lord in the Eucharist.
remember every knee shall bow and every mouth confess that Jesus is Lord. we do this at every Mass.
:byzsoc:
J
justasking4
Guest
Have your apostolic leaders always taught the truth? Do all leaders in your church always teach the truth? What do you do if you find yourself deceived?
This example is quite clear in Scripture. There are no clear and specific cases of an infant being baptized in Scripture.
Actually the way to understand what is written is to study and listen to men who have studied, who know the Scriptures well and can teach.
Actually the HS is essential. It the Spirit that applies the truths of Scripture to our lives. This is one way in which He works.
That’s why I’m here to see if I’m deceived as you claim.
Who specifically in the catholic church has this authority? If it’s the pope then how does that help you when you have a question or faced with some issue? Would it be the parish priest?
Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?
G
guanophore
Guest
I agree.
What is strange is that Protestants trust God enough to guide the Church into all truth when it concerned determination of the canon, but reject the notion that God guided them in other matters prior or since.
Still up to your same old calumny and detraction, ja4? It is not appropriate for you to come here to CAF and try to give “problems” to Catholics. If Sacred Tradition is a problem for you, at least be responsible for yourself, and own that it belongs ot you, instead of saying it is a “major problem” for others.
We most certainly have evidence for it, and we know what it is, we can also show what it is. Unfortunately, you are still needing the elementary doctrines of Christ, and are not ready for anything so sublime as Sacred Tradition.
You are getting ahead of yourself, trying to address this topic. It is necessary to build a firm foundation (you are still on “milk”) before you can move on to more advanced. matters.
No, I can see why it would not . You are really not ready for anything so advanced.justasking4 said:
Not only that, in order for information to “help” someone, one must be open to learning, which your posts have demonstrated that you are not. Only the HS can really help you, ja4, and many of our prayers (which I see are being vigorously raised on another thread) and the binding of that which blinds.
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guanophore
Guest
I just quoted you the scripture where God breathed on the church, and gave the church authority (his own authority to forgive and retain sins).
The NT is a Catholic book, written by, for, and about Catholics. Therefore, I think it is plain that this represents Catholic belief.
Theolgians do not define Catholic doctrine. Jesus does. However, since you are inclined to be contentious, I am sure you can find a Catholic theologian that does not agree with the teachings of the church. No amount of detraction you can find, however, will change the facts.
You really have an obsession on this , don’t you ja4? No, I fell for this before, and I finally realized that you are not cognitively or spiritually able to grasp these concepts. After hundreds of your posts, I finally see a pattern:
It is clear that you have still not mastered the elementary things of Christ, and it is not appropriate to try to throw the pearls of these Catholic beliefs where they do not belong.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
The true church of God is the collective of all the faithful in Christ. His predestined elect as set forth in Holy Scripture. This view is Scripturally based:
The term ekklesia in the NT can refer to the “church of God” meeting in a home (Rom 16:5), in a particular city (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1), in a region (Acts 9:31) or a larger area such as Asia itself (1 Cor 16:19). When these data are taken together we realize that the church is a universal body composed of all true believers in Christ, united in Him by the Spirit, and that there are particular geographical expressions of it here and there and throughout history. Thus, though there are many local “churches,” there is really only one church (Eph 4:4; Heb 12:23).* (link here)
- The church is the body of Christ and He is at its head (Ephesians 1:22-23).
- The early Christians were not organized in one large church. They frequently met in each others homes, breaking bread in simple fellowship.
- Paul himself appointed elders in every town, and never advocated creating an Episcopacy (Titus 1:5).
- Paul and Barnabas appointed church elders in a congregational format. Again, neither an episcopal or presbyterian church structure existed or was ever advocated by any Apostle (Acts 14:23).
- Peter describes himself as a “fellow elder” (1 Peter 5:1-2).
- While remaining unmarried is encouraged for evangelists Paul specifically warns against practices such as forbidding marriage (1 Timothy 4:1-4).
- The pastoral epistles specifically allow (perhaps even enumerate) marriage among members of the clergy (1 Timothy 3).
- That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9). There is no mention here of membership in any particular church. Paul clearly and without question sets forth the requirement for salvation, faith.
- Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). This again affirms that all who confess Christ are blessed with an indwelling of the Holy Spirit and are saved. Again, no denominational membership requirement can be inferred from this verse.
- One of the earliest surviving Christian writings, the Didache calls upon congregations to appoint their own elders (bishops) and deacons (see Chap. 15). Moreover, the document calls upon Christians to reprove one another (see Id).
- Scripture is called the inspired word of God by Paul, and he tells us it is useful for teaching, reproof, and correction (see 2 Timothy 3:16).
- All believers are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).
- Even during the time of the early Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement) the church was organized in a loose episcopacy. While the church was spiritually headed in Jerusalem in the early days there was never a central church government. In fact there were several different arms of the church in early Christianity. There were Nazarenes, the Pauline gentile church, the Messianic Jewish church headed by James, etc.
- Peter was given a commission by Christ to settle matters of core doctrine between these different church arms. This mission was accomplished at the Counsel of Jerusalem. Peter serves an advisory role mediating between James and Paul; and the group found concession and agreement. The terms bind and loose refer to Peter’s last word concerning doctrine and is in furtherance of his role as discussed here (see Acts 15).
The term ekklesia in the NT can refer to the “church of God” meeting in a home (Rom 16:5), in a particular city (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1), in a region (Acts 9:31) or a larger area such as Asia itself (1 Cor 16:19). When these data are taken together we realize that the church is a universal body composed of all true believers in Christ, united in Him by the Spirit, and that there are particular geographical expressions of it here and there and throughout history. Thus, though there are many local “churches,” there is really only one church (Eph 4:4; Heb 12:23).* (link here)
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guanophore
Guest
That St. Paul of Tarsus was never married.
You can have no assurance of this, since you have rejected the Teachings.
G
guanophore
Guest
ja4, a question like this demonstrates a worldly and carnal thinking process. Don’t you remember that Jesus rebuked the Apostles when they were pre-occupied with determining “greatness”?
The world seeks such things. Jesus also rebuked the Pharisees because they placed their errant understanding of Scripture over Himself. The Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scripture complement one another. It is not a “competition in greatness” as you seem to see. The Pope is the servant of the servants of God. There is no competition. The Pope embraces the Church as his bride, acting in the person of Christ.
Yes. we are in the world, and Jesus commands us to be “wise as serpents” in dealing with the world. He commands that we use the resources of the world to further the goals of the Kingdom.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
The ministry of Paul is well recorded in Acts written by Luke and through his own letters, from his conversion on the road to Damascus to his execution. Obviously Paul never married. Is anyone really questioning this or is this a side bar discussion?That St. Paul of Tarsus was never married.
You can have no assurance of this, since you have rejected the Teachings.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
True. As the Church grow larger houses were not enough to hold so many worshippers. When Christianity became legalized in the 4th Century, Christians could publicly worshipped. Second, Early Christians worship was liturgical and Eucharistic in its essence.
Never advocated Episcopacy? Where is that in the Bible?
According to who? I see no where that is implied in Scripture.
Of course. That doesn’t negate him being the First amongst the Apostles.
- While remaining unmarried is encouraged for evangelists Paul specifically warns against practices such as forbidding marriage (1 Timothy 4:1-4).
True, even today, there are married priest in the Catholic Church. There those in the Latin Rite (Roman Rite) who are married priests with approval from the Vatican and the Eastern Rite Catholics have married priest and it is a norm there.
A person becomes a member of the Church when he is baptized. Jesus even said to the Apostles, “Baptized them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.”
Catholics confesses Jesus is Lord in the Nicene Creed when it is recited every Sunday.
Didache also stated that we should examine ourselves before offering sacrifices. In the Early Church, Christians believe that they partake in the sacrifice of Christ in the Divine Liturgy or Mass. The sacrifice of the Mass makes the sacrifice of Christ present before us in an unbloody manner.
Truth but the Bible is not a manual for Christians because everything that Jesus said and done is not completely written some of what he did was written. If all what Jesus said and done was written, no book would contain it. Read the last verse in the Gospel of John.
Catholics believe at also.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
On the Contrary, they believe the primacy was held in Rome.
“Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him.” Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).
“I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).
‘You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).
“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).
“As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out.” Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)
“It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid: ‘But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.’” Gaius, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, 2:25 (A.D. 198).
“[W]hat utterance also the Romans give, so very near (to the apostles), to whom Peter and Paul conjointly bequeathed the gospel even sealed with their own blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:5 (inter A.D. 207-212).
'We read the lives of the Caesars: At Rome Nero was the first who stained with blood the rising blood. Then is Peter girt by another (an allusion to John 21:18), when he is made fast to the cross." Tertullian, Scorpiace, 15:3 (A.D. 212).
“Peter…at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer this way.” Origen, Third Commentary on Genesis, (A.D. 232).
“Thus Peter, the first of the Apostles, having been often apprehended, and thrown into prison, and treated with igominy, was last of all crucified at Rome.” Peter of Alexandria, The Canonical Epistle, Canon 9 (A.D. 306).
“[W]hich Peter and Paul preached at Rome…” Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 4:21 (A.D. 310).
“Peter…coming to the city of Rome, by the mighty cooperation of that power which was lying in wait there…” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, II:14,5 (A.D. 325).
“This man [Simon Magus], after he had been cast out by the Apostles, came to Rome…Peter and Paul, a noble pair, chief rulers of the Church, arrived and set the error right…For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven…” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures ,6:14-15 (c. A.D. 350).
“And Peter, who had hid himself for fear of the Jews, and the Apostle Paul who was let down in a basket, and fled, when they were told, ‘Ye must bear witness at Rome,’ deferred not the journey; yea, rather, they departed rejoicing…” Athanasius, Defence of his Flight, 18 (c. A.D. 357).
“I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 377).
“For if when here he loved men so, that when he [Peter] had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here, much more will he there display a warmer affection. I love Rome even for this, although indeed one has other grounds for praising it, both for its greatness, and its antiquity, and its beauty, and its populousness, and for its power, and its wealth, and for its successes in war. But I let all this pass, and esteem it blessed on this account, that both in his lifetime he wrote to them, and loved them so, and talked with them whiles he was with us, and brought his life to a close there.” John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32 (c. A.D. 391).
“Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him.” Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).
“I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).
‘You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).
“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).
“As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out.” Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)
“It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid: ‘But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.’” Gaius, fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, 2:25 (A.D. 198).
“[W]hat utterance also the Romans give, so very near (to the apostles), to whom Peter and Paul conjointly bequeathed the gospel even sealed with their own blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:5 (inter A.D. 207-212).
'We read the lives of the Caesars: At Rome Nero was the first who stained with blood the rising blood. Then is Peter girt by another (an allusion to John 21:18), when he is made fast to the cross." Tertullian, Scorpiace, 15:3 (A.D. 212).
“Peter…at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer this way.” Origen, Third Commentary on Genesis, (A.D. 232).
“Thus Peter, the first of the Apostles, having been often apprehended, and thrown into prison, and treated with igominy, was last of all crucified at Rome.” Peter of Alexandria, The Canonical Epistle, Canon 9 (A.D. 306).
“[W]hich Peter and Paul preached at Rome…” Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 4:21 (A.D. 310).
“Peter…coming to the city of Rome, by the mighty cooperation of that power which was lying in wait there…” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, II:14,5 (A.D. 325).
“This man [Simon Magus], after he had been cast out by the Apostles, came to Rome…Peter and Paul, a noble pair, chief rulers of the Church, arrived and set the error right…For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven…” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures ,6:14-15 (c. A.D. 350).
“And Peter, who had hid himself for fear of the Jews, and the Apostle Paul who was let down in a basket, and fled, when they were told, ‘Ye must bear witness at Rome,’ deferred not the journey; yea, rather, they departed rejoicing…” Athanasius, Defence of his Flight, 18 (c. A.D. 357).
“I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 377).
“For if when here he loved men so, that when he [Peter] had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to be here, much more will he there display a warmer affection. I love Rome even for this, although indeed one has other grounds for praising it, both for its greatness, and its antiquity, and its beauty, and its populousness, and for its power, and its wealth, and for its successes in war. But I let all this pass, and esteem it blessed on this account, that both in his lifetime he wrote to them, and loved them so, and talked with them whiles he was with us, and brought his life to a close there.” John Chrysostom, Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32 (c. A.D. 391).
Of course this affirms what Jesus gave Peter in Matthew 16:18.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
In the Septuagint (the Greek OT) the term ekklesia is often used to translate the Hebrew term lh^q which can refer to meetings for civil affairs (1 Kings 2:3), for war (Num 22:4), of nations (Gen 35:11), and a variety of other gatherings, including, and most importantly, Israel’s gatherings for religious purposes (Deut 9:10; 2 Chron 20:5; Joel 2:16).44
The term ekklesia in the NT can refer to the “church of God” meeting in a home (Rom 16:5), in a particular city (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1), in a region (Acts 9:31) or a larger area such as Asia itself (1 Cor 16:19). When these data are taken together we realize that the church is a universal body composed of all true believers in Christ, united in Him by the Spirit, and that there are particular geographical expressions of it here and there and throughout history. Thus, though there are many local “churches,” there is really only one church (Eph 4:4; Heb 12:23).* (link here)
There is only One Church and its the Catholic Church, which is founded by Jesus Christ himself.
The term ekklesia in the NT can refer to the “church of God” meeting in a home (Rom 16:5), in a particular city (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1), in a region (Acts 9:31) or a larger area such as Asia itself (1 Cor 16:19). When these data are taken together we realize that the church is a universal body composed of all true believers in Christ, united in Him by the Spirit, and that there are particular geographical expressions of it here and there and throughout history. Thus, though there are many local “churches,” there is really only one church (Eph 4:4; Heb 12:23).* (link here)
There is only One Church and its the Catholic Church, which is founded by Jesus Christ himself.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
None of this advocates a church headed at Rome or anything close?
All of these men were several degrees separated from the Apostles. Hence there is no evidence that they wholly represent the teachings of the Apostles – outside of claims by Rome itself. Moreover, the definition of “church” and requirements for salvation and membership in the body of Christ are clearly enumerated in Scripture; and the idea of a denominational requirement is abrogated.
Tertullian left the Catholic Church, and joined another denomination (for lack of a better term).
Again, I’m not sure why you would reach for Tertullian to support your position?
Origen also was a Universalist, toyed with the idea of reincarnation, and believed in the Platonic idea of preexistence of souls. The Catholic Church has rejected most of Origen’s theories, so why try to use him now?
Now we’re over 300 years detached from the Apostles themselves and Christ. The writings of these men, while valuable in many ways, are simply to attenuated in time to hold relevance to this issue.
Again, you misconstrue Matt. 16:18.
R
ROBIN97
Guest
While the Church of England (trying to seperate itself from the Pope ) invented the designation “Roman Catholic”, and used it as a derogatory term, it back-fired on them. Catholics in general from the Western World liked/ the sound of it. It had a nice, strong flavor and rolled smoothly off the tongue (in my opinion). Although there are 23 “rites”, the Roman Rite being only one of them, Virtually All 23 identify themselves as Catholics under the headship of the Bishop of Rome. That’s Catholic with a big “C”.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
This is obviously true, but I fail to see how this supports your position?
The word “advocated” is a positive action not a negative. Thus, the failure of any discussion regarding episcopal governance (in scripture) means it was not advocated. I didn’t say it was forbidden, but your point is noted.
Logically, when taken together with other verses, for example we see Paul equal to Peter (2 Cor. 12:11, Galatians 2:11), we can begin to define his role as “rock” of the church.
Certainly the Eastern Church permits marriage among the clergy but this is rare in the Latin Rite church. I do get the feeling Rome is moving in this direction though.
We all baptize, I’m not sure I see the relevance here?
I never suggested otherwise, my position is any Christian, whether Catholic or not, who so professes is saved.
I was looking forward to discussing this document in more detail, because it reaches my point. Paul was very firm in his departure from Jewish custom such as offering sacrifices. This is why I am so hesitant to put too much authority on any document outside of Scripture. I used that document because it is used often by the Catholic Church, however, while it does help us understand early Christianity it is clear when we read Paul that many of the early Christians still held tightly to Judaism. Paul more than any other apostle teaches that we are saved by grace, it is not from ourselves, neither our will, efforts, or desire have anything to do with it, rather it is a gift from God to His elect.
The fact is the Catholic Church does not purport to know anything more about the life of Jesus than any protestant denomination. The Catholic Church to its credit didn’t adopt every single rumor in the Christian world as doctrine. We know little about the life of Jesus between His birth and around 29 or 30 years old.
C
cath2lic4ever
Guest
St Alphonsus Mary De Liguori (1696-1787)
Bishop and Doctor of the Church
St. Francis Jerome, when he visited the parents of St. Alphonsus shortly after his birth, made this prophecy: “This child will be blessed with length of days; he shall not see death before his ninetieth year; he will be a bishop and will do great things for Jesus Christ.” This prophecy certainly came true. One of the most accomplished of all the saints is Alphonsus Liguori. He was a lawyer in both civil and Church law before he dedicated his whole life to serving God. He was founder of a religious order, author of more than a hundred books, originator of modern moral theology, renowned preacher and confessor, bishop, musical composer and painter. For all of his 91 years on earth, he was also a man of prayer and deep personal holiness.
"A church which is not one in its doctrine and faith can never be the True Church … Hence, because truth must be one, of all the different churches … only one can be the true one … and out of that Church there is no salvation. Now, in order to determine which is this one true Church … it is necessary to examine which is the Church first founded by Jesus Christ, for, when this is ascertained, it must be confessed that this one alone is the true Church which, having once been the true Church must always have been the true Church and must forever be the true Church. For to this first Church has been made the promise of the Savior that the gates of Hell would never be able to overturn it (Matthew 16:18) … In the entire history of religion, we find that the Roman Catholic Church alone was the first Church, and that the other false and heretical churches afterwards departed and separated from her. This is the Church which was propagated by the Apostles and afterwards governed by pastors whom the Apostles themselves appointed to rule over her … This character can be found only in the Roman Church, whose pastors descend securely by an uninterrupted and legitimate succession from the Apostles of the world (Matthew 28:20)
"The innovators themselves do not deny that the Roman Church was the first which Jesus Christ founded … however, they say … that it was the true Church until the fifth century, or until … it fell away, because it had been corrupted by the Catholics … But how could that Church fall which St. Paul calls the “pillar and ground of truth” (I Timothy 3:15)? … No. The Church has not failed … The truth is … that all the false churches which have separated from the Roman Church have fallen away and erred … To convince all heretical sects of their error, there is no way more certain and safe than to show that our Catholic Church has been the first one founded by Jesus Christ; for, this being established, it is proved beyond all doubt that ours is the only true Church and that all the others which have left it and separated are certainly in error … But, pressed by this argument, the innovators have invented an answer: they say that the visible Church has failed, but not the invisible Church … But these doctrines are diametrically opposed to the Gospel.
"The innovators have been challenged several times to produce a text of Sacred Scripture which would prove the existence of the invisible church they invented, and we are unable to obtain any such text from them. How could they adduce such a text when, addressing His Apostles whom He left as the propagators of His Church, Jesus said: “You cannot be hidden” (Matthew 5:14)? … Thus He has declared that the Church cannot help but be visible to everyone … The Church has been at all times, and will forever be, necessarily visible, so that each person may always be able to learn from his pastor the true doctrine regarding the dogmas of faith … to receive the Sacraments, to be directed in the way of salvation, and to be enlightened and corrected should he ever fall into error. For, were the Church in any time hidden and invisible, to whom would men have recourse in order to learn what they are to believe and to do? … It was necessary that the Church and her pastors be obvious and visible, principally in order that there might be an infallible judge … to resolve all doubts, and to whose decision everyone should necessarily submit. Otherwise, there would be no sure rule of faith by which Christians could know the true dogmas of faith and the true precepts of morality, and among the faithful there would be endless disputes and controversies … “And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:11-14)
"But what faith can we learn from these false teachers when, in consequence of separating from the Church, they have no rule of faith? … How often Calvin changed his opinions! And, during his life, Luther was constantly contradicting himself: on the single article of the Eucharist, he fell into thirty-three contradictions! A single contradiction is enough to show that they did not have the Spirit of God. “He cannot deny Himself” (II Timothy 2:13). In a word, take away the authority of the Church, and neither Divine Revelation nor natural reason itself is of any use, for each of them may be interpreted by every individual according to his own caprice … Do they not see that from this accursed liberty of conscience has arisen the immense variety of heretical and atheistic sects? … I repeat: if you take away obedience to the Church, there is no error which will not be embraced.
love to share this. GOD bless & prayers to all!
Bishop and Doctor of the Church
St. Francis Jerome, when he visited the parents of St. Alphonsus shortly after his birth, made this prophecy: “This child will be blessed with length of days; he shall not see death before his ninetieth year; he will be a bishop and will do great things for Jesus Christ.” This prophecy certainly came true. One of the most accomplished of all the saints is Alphonsus Liguori. He was a lawyer in both civil and Church law before he dedicated his whole life to serving God. He was founder of a religious order, author of more than a hundred books, originator of modern moral theology, renowned preacher and confessor, bishop, musical composer and painter. For all of his 91 years on earth, he was also a man of prayer and deep personal holiness.
"A church which is not one in its doctrine and faith can never be the True Church … Hence, because truth must be one, of all the different churches … only one can be the true one … and out of that Church there is no salvation. Now, in order to determine which is this one true Church … it is necessary to examine which is the Church first founded by Jesus Christ, for, when this is ascertained, it must be confessed that this one alone is the true Church which, having once been the true Church must always have been the true Church and must forever be the true Church. For to this first Church has been made the promise of the Savior that the gates of Hell would never be able to overturn it (Matthew 16:18) … In the entire history of religion, we find that the Roman Catholic Church alone was the first Church, and that the other false and heretical churches afterwards departed and separated from her. This is the Church which was propagated by the Apostles and afterwards governed by pastors whom the Apostles themselves appointed to rule over her … This character can be found only in the Roman Church, whose pastors descend securely by an uninterrupted and legitimate succession from the Apostles of the world (Matthew 28:20)
"The innovators themselves do not deny that the Roman Church was the first which Jesus Christ founded … however, they say … that it was the true Church until the fifth century, or until … it fell away, because it had been corrupted by the Catholics … But how could that Church fall which St. Paul calls the “pillar and ground of truth” (I Timothy 3:15)? … No. The Church has not failed … The truth is … that all the false churches which have separated from the Roman Church have fallen away and erred … To convince all heretical sects of their error, there is no way more certain and safe than to show that our Catholic Church has been the first one founded by Jesus Christ; for, this being established, it is proved beyond all doubt that ours is the only true Church and that all the others which have left it and separated are certainly in error … But, pressed by this argument, the innovators have invented an answer: they say that the visible Church has failed, but not the invisible Church … But these doctrines are diametrically opposed to the Gospel.
"The innovators have been challenged several times to produce a text of Sacred Scripture which would prove the existence of the invisible church they invented, and we are unable to obtain any such text from them. How could they adduce such a text when, addressing His Apostles whom He left as the propagators of His Church, Jesus said: “You cannot be hidden” (Matthew 5:14)? … Thus He has declared that the Church cannot help but be visible to everyone … The Church has been at all times, and will forever be, necessarily visible, so that each person may always be able to learn from his pastor the true doctrine regarding the dogmas of faith … to receive the Sacraments, to be directed in the way of salvation, and to be enlightened and corrected should he ever fall into error. For, were the Church in any time hidden and invisible, to whom would men have recourse in order to learn what they are to believe and to do? … It was necessary that the Church and her pastors be obvious and visible, principally in order that there might be an infallible judge … to resolve all doubts, and to whose decision everyone should necessarily submit. Otherwise, there would be no sure rule of faith by which Christians could know the true dogmas of faith and the true precepts of morality, and among the faithful there would be endless disputes and controversies … “And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:11-14)
"But what faith can we learn from these false teachers when, in consequence of separating from the Church, they have no rule of faith? … How often Calvin changed his opinions! And, during his life, Luther was constantly contradicting himself: on the single article of the Eucharist, he fell into thirty-three contradictions! A single contradiction is enough to show that they did not have the Spirit of God. “He cannot deny Himself” (II Timothy 2:13). In a word, take away the authority of the Church, and neither Divine Revelation nor natural reason itself is of any use, for each of them may be interpreted by every individual according to his own caprice … Do they not see that from this accursed liberty of conscience has arisen the immense variety of heretical and atheistic sects? … I repeat: if you take away obedience to the Church, there is no error which will not be embraced.
love to share this. GOD bless & prayers to all!
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Your latter statement, honestly, teeters on heretical. No one may say who will ascend to heaven and who will not, this is told to us by Scripture. When Scripture speaks it is God speaking, so in effect you now juxtapose yourself in the shoes of our sovereign God.
Indeed we are called to reproof each other and all believers are priests.
I did examine this very question, and Jesus never paid Rome a visit.
Boy, I’d bet you would have been an eager crusader.
Well, at least we’re “innovators” I guess we’re moving up in the world?
Just what “innovator” are you referring to btw? Sounds like you just tossed this statement out there. Citations please?
Of course the notion that Paul was referring to the RCC in 1 Tim. 3:15 is only in your mind, it has no basis in fact.
Pay a visit to my Presbyterian church. We’re visible? Where do you get this bumpkis from?
Don’t even get me started on Luther, Johann Tetzel, or Pope Leo X.
C
cath2lic4ever
Guest
yada…yada…yada…that’s what you are! typical talk now think later persona, no wonder you don’t belong to the church that JESUS founded. so clear to me that you lack understanding on the early church history what more so on scriptures, you’ve got so much angst and hatred that makes me wonder if you truly believe in GOD. what i posted was written by st. alphonsus mary de liguori that i wanted to share here. how stupid can you get? now let me ask you is presbyterian a religion?
J
justasking4
Guest
What Sacred Tradition are you referring to? Can you give me a couple of examples as it relates to the canon?
The date of Christ’ birth is not a doctrinal issue. How He was conceived is.
Again i come across this term “Sacred Traditions”. Do you know specifically what they are?
That may be. However it does not answer the question: did He? Where is the evidence He actually did this to Mary?
Not really. When a divine appears to humans there is almost always in Scripture that i can think of --fear. That’s why the angel tells her not to fear. It is a normal reaction under these kinds of circumstances. It was not unbiblical.
See previous response.
I don’t recall saying that. Do you have the quote which makes you say that?
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