Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

[sola_scriptura]

Hi Sola

Jesus did reassure us he would send the Holy Spirit and would be with us til the end of time. We stumble and fall and He help us to get up again. We Catholics believe that the Pope and the Magisterium is there to steer the boat. He is your Pope too even thought you may not recognise him as such.

God also gives us freedom in Christ – it is this freedom we are spreading to all corners of the earth. It’s like manifest destiny but much more profound – it’s divine providence.

 

[MDK]

What then of the other apostles? Did they have an equal responsibilty to feed the sheep and help build the church? Did they look at Peter as the supreme leader of the entire church?

Haven’t you already been through this? Do you need each and every Catholic to tell you the truth before you believe it?

• As recorded in Matthew 16:18, who was to build the Church… was it the Apostles or Christ?
• As recorded in the Gospel of Matthew 16:18, How many Apostles were given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven?
• As recorded in John 21, how many Apostles were told directly by Christ to “Feed my lambs…, Feed my lambs…, Feed my sheep”?
• As recorded in Matthew 16:18, how many Apostles had their name changed to mean “rock”?
• What does it mean when God has changed someone’s name? Does He have a special mission for them? Think of Abram to Abraham…, Jacob to Israel…, Simon to Kepha (rock)…, Saul to Paul… Was is just a whim, or was there a meaning and purpose in all these name changes?
• As recorded in Matthew 16:18, how many Apostles were told they were the rock of the Church to correspond with their name change?
• Christ established Peter as head of the Apostles. So, if you believe that the Apostles followed Christ, then they also followed and kept what Christ established, which was an office of “Prime Minister” to stand in as the King was going back home to Heaven.

A good definition is found in New Advent encyclopedia: Vicar of Christ
It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: “Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep” (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19.

The post of Vicar doesn’t mean the pope is top man, as the true Head of the Church is Christ. St Peter has primacy as head of the sacred ministers, the visible leader of the Church, and the symbol of unity of the Church. He has full, supreme, immediate, and universal power as given to him by the Son of God. This is God’s plan. It is not man’s plan. Christ came with a mission from the Father, and the Apostles were given a mission from Christ. The leader of the Apostles was St Peter, as established by Christ.

I don’t have much hope you will answer these correctly on this board. I hope at least somewhere in the ja4 mind, the truth is starting to make inroads.

 

[MDK]

God will protect the entire church, all Christians, along with the visible church (congregations, including Catholic & all others).

It’s like a divine checks and balances system (did I just coin a new theological theory)

Unity will happen at the end when the earthly churches are replaced by the New Jerusalem, the coming kingdom (see Rev. 21, Gal. 4) – until then man cannot be trusted with absolute power, because it corrupts absolutely.

Christ didn’t stop working at His death. He is still guiding the faithful. He didn’t hand the reins over to the Romans and stop working for us. When God saw the abuses in the Roman church He reached down and used Luther to correct it (I admit – God sometimes chooses peculiar people to do His work). Whatever can be said about Luther imagine if he never existed?

The reformation gave this world so much. Imagine – we might still have guys like Johann Tetzel running around charging us money to free grandma from purgatory. Luther even compelled Rome to reform, making the RCC a better church. What would have become of science, would the English ever have colonized the new world, would we have ever had an enlightenment and men like John Locke and Adam Smith …

I doubt it. The fruits of the reformation and enlightenment are still paying dividends for this world. Because of America communism fell, the Nazi’s defeated, and economic prosperity is spreading throughout the world. Soon religious freedom will reach all corners of this globe and inevitably Jesus’ name will be praised in all nations. God is great!

You just don’t get it. The office of the Papacy is not a man’s power, but Christ’s. How can this be corrupted?

Where did God ask that men be outside His Church until the end times?

 

[sola_scriptura]

You just don’t get it. The office of the Papacy is not a man’s power, but Christ’s. How can this be corrupted?

Where did God ask that men be outside His Church until the end times?

If I were to agree with your premise (that the office of the Papacy is Christ’s power) I might agree that it could not be corrupted. In fact I like your assertion – because now if I can find even one corrupt Pope then I can prove you wrong. Or will I hear the same old double speak. It is Christ’s power in terms of doctrine but not personal behavior?

 

[MDK]

justasking4;4096885:

Your statement that “he Catholic Church will not teach error in faith and morals” cannot be supported. One such example is
where Galileo was summoned to Rome by the Inquisition to stand trial for “grave suspicion of heresy.” There is no doubt that the church was in error. It was a matter of faith otherwise he would not have been on trial and imprisoned for heresy.

JA4, quick note… and you’ve been asked before, but after 4,500 posts you still can’t quote such that it provides a link for people to follow the posts. It smells of dishonesty, rather than incompetence, although one could argue either.

Both of you two:
You really don’t understand the Galileo issue at all. There were religious who had been espousing the same findings as Galileo, I believe even before Galileo came out with these. However, what got Galileo into trouble was his challenging church teachings about the Scriptures as he saw related to his findings, not about the planetary and orbits. In this, Galileo was wrong. He was not wrong about the planetary orbits.

**Once again, you provide a false accusation. **

**Do you have the decency to apologize? **

 

[catholiconce]

Our gospel reading Today (Lutheran ELCA) was Mathew 16 13-20.

"On this rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hades will not prevail against and to you Peter… Peter was given the Keys to the kingdome .Was he the First Pope? Did all those that followed adhere to the true teachings of Christ? To say that The roman Catholic church as it is today is the same as Jesus founded is wrong. For some of you to claim that You are showing those “fall away Protestant” the truth is arogant. The word protestant was a word used by some to define those who saw the coruption in the Church at the time. There are no Protestants today those of us who left or do not belong to the Roman Catholic Church are not protesting God. We are Christian and believe in Jesus. This idea that the Roman Catholic Church uses this and other mediums to inform others that the RCC is the only way to salvation is self serving. Some of you attack Luther and others for thieir views. How about your views are they what Jesus taught? Why because the Priest said they were? Martin Luther was a priest? There is Salvation for Christians not just the denomination of Roman Catholic. One must be a christian to have Eternal life not Just and only Roman Catholic. Oh and yes there are “Prots in purgatory” and also in heaven we will see you there.

 

[MichaelBolton22]

As someone who is catholic and was raised in the faith, I find this truly offensive that the Pope would make a statement like this. It is making me seriously consider leaving the church. As long as popele believe in God and the holy trinity, why does it matter whether they believe as catholics, methodists, lutherans, etc? I think Benedict has gone too far with this statement and I do believe it is going to hurt the catholic church in the long run.​

widecircles.com

 

[MDK]

If I were to agree with your premise (that the office of the Papacy is Christ’s power) I might agree that it could not be corrupted. In fact I like your assertion – because now if I can find even one corrupt Pope then I can prove you wrong. Or will I hear the same old double speak. It is Christ’s power in terms of doctrine but not personal behavior?

Good in one aspect, but you’re falsely accusing again… as that’s the way God set things up. The pope has to go to confession, but if you even attempt to be fair about this, which is doubtful, you’d have to go with what the Church officially claims for the papacy. This is what I was discussing above.

Yes, if you find one instance where the Church officially taught error in faith and morals that was binding on all Catholics, then yes you’ve found a big problem. You’ll find plenty of popes who of their own free will did things that were not officially binding in faith and morals on all Catholics, where they were cowards, erroneous, etc… The popes go to confession, as any human does. Please don’t confuse them with being inspired, like the authors of the NT Scriptures. It’s more like a set of guard rails such that they won’t go off the road when teaching faith and morals as it’s stated for the Pope in the Catechism.

 

[MichaelBolton22]

As someone who is catholic and was raised in the faith, I find this truly offensive that the Pope would make a statement like this. It is making me seriously consider leaving the church. As long as popele believe in God and the holy trinity, why does it matter whether they believe as catholics, methodists, lutherans, etc? I think Benedict has gone too far with this statement and I do believe it is going to hurt the catholic church in the long run.​

widecircles.com

 

[justasking4]

MDK;4096968]JA4, quick note… and you’ve been asked before, but after 4,500 posts you still can’t quote such that it provides a link for people to follow the posts. It smells of dishonesty, rather than incompetence, although one could argue either.

View attachment 3849

Both of you two:
You really don’t understand the Galileo issue at all. There were religious who had been espousing the same findings as Galileo, I believe even before Galileo came out with these. However, what got Galileo into trouble was his challenging church teachings about the Scriptures as he saw related to his findings, not about the planetary and orbits. In this, Galileo was wrong. He was not wrong about the planetary orbits.

**Once again, you provide a false accusation. **

**Do you have the decency to apologize? **

No need to apologize when one has the facts.
The Catholic church certainly looked at this as a matter of faith since he was tried for heresy (which is a theological term in this context) and was imprisioned.

 

[MDK]

As someone who is catholic and was raised in the faith, I find this truly offensive that the Pope would make a statement like this. It is making me seriously consider leaving the church. As long as popele believe in God and the holy trinity, why does it matter whether they believe as catholics, methodists, lutherans, etc? I think Benedict has gone too far with this statement and I do believe it is going to hurt the catholic church in the long run.​

widecircles.com

What statement are you referring to?

If you understand this to be the Church built by the Pope, then I understand how you would be tempted to go elsewhere.

Do you know Whose Church this is… i.e. who built it? Please check Matthew 16:18.

An answer to your question is that many Churches teach differing interpretations of God’s revealed Word. If you have an incorrect interpretation, how can you really know Christ? If you don’t know Christ, then you don’t know the Father. Only the Catholic Church was built by Christ, and guaranteed to be free from teaching error in faith and morals.

All other churches were built by men, who were not also God, and so depend on fallible men to interpret God’s Word. All that goes with that in regard to the Catholic Church in teaching of truth, true and real Sacraments, valid priesthood, rock of the Church. If that isn’t a good enough reason for you, there may not be one.

 

[MDK]

View attachment 3849

No need to apologize when one has the facts.
The Catholic church certainly looked at this as a matter of faith since he was tried for heresy (which is a theological term in this context) and was imprisioned.

You have come to the wrong conclusion regarding the Catholic Church in this matter. That’s where the apology needs to be made… but then again, you have quite a long list of apologies needed for your stance against God’s Church. Whether you recognize that now or later is all that remains.

 

[sola_scriptura]

JA4, quick note… and you’ve been asked before, but after 4,500 posts you still can’t quote such that it provides a link for people to follow the posts. It smells of dishonesty, rather than incompetence, although one could argue either.

Both of you two:
You really don’t understand the Galileo issue at all. There were religious who had been espousing the same findings as Galileo, I believe even before Galileo came out with these. However, what got Galileo into trouble was his challenging church teachings about the Scriptures as he saw related to his findings, not about the planetary and orbits. In this, Galileo was wrong. He was not wrong about the planetary orbits.

**Once again, you provide a false accusation. **

**Do you have the decency to apologize? **

That’s a creative spin on it. Galileo was not a theologian. The church objected to his theory of heliocentrism (the sun is the center of the universe). In reaction to RCC objection (and of course the inquisition) he was compelled to defend his theory theologically, relying on Augustine’s position that every passage in Scripture is not to be taken literally. I repeat Galileo was not a theologian, forced to defend his scientific theory he appealed to Augustinian theology … gee wiz.

The order from the church directed Galileo to cease holding or defending the theory of heliocentrism. Your spin (which I assume is Rome’s spin on this error) is revisionist history.

Justasking has nothing at all to apologize for. His understanding of this controversy is perfectly correct. It is yours that is pure spin.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Attachment 3849

No need to apologize when one has the facts.
The Catholic church certainly looked at this as a matter of faith since he was tried for heresy (which is a theological term in this context) and was imprisioned.

MDK
You have come to the wrong conclusion regarding the Catholic Church in this matter. That’s where the apology needs to be made… but then again, you have quite a long list of apologies needed for your stance against God’s Church. Whether you recognize that now or later is all that remains.

Are you saying that this was not a “theoological” matter when they tried him for heresy?

 

[MDK]

Our gospel reading Today (Lutheran ELCA) was Mathew 16 13-20.

"On this rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hades will not prevail against and to you Peter… Peter was given the Keys to the kingdome .Was he the First Pope? Did all those that followed adhere to the true teachings of Christ? To say that The roman Catholic church as it is today is the same as Jesus founded is wrong. For some of you to claim that You are showing those “fall away Protestant” the truth is arogant. The word protestant was a word used by some to define those who saw the coruption in the Church at the time. There are no Protestants today those of us who left or do not belong to the Roman Catholic Church are not protesting God. We are Christian and believe in Jesus. This idea that the Roman Catholic Church uses this and other mediums to inform others that the RCC is the only way to salvation is self serving. Some of you attack Luther and others for thieir views. How about your views are they what Jesus taught? Why because the Priest said they were? Martin Luther was a priest? There is Salvation for Christians not just the denomination of Roman Catholic. One must be a christian to have Eternal life not Just and only Roman Catholic. Oh and yes there are “Prots in purgatory” and also in heaven we will see you there.

What does one expect from you? You left the Church built by Christ because you did not understand and believed falsely. That you still believe falsely is unfortunate, but doesn’t make what you say true. That you can occasionally post a little fact and then twist it to a false conclusion does harm to yourself. We must tell you about this, but it is your responsibility for yourself.

 

[MDK]

Are you saying that this was not a “theoological” matter when they tried him for heresy?

You still haven’t learned to quote, and it’s really not difficult. If you can’t do something simple like this, why should anyone trust you with more important issues?

Why do you never understand what the truth is?

I don’t see the need to repeat myself for you. Please go back and reread as many times as is needed until perhaps you do understand.

 

[MDK]

That’s a creative spin on it. Galileo was not a theologian. The church objected to his theory of heliocentrism (the sun is the center of the universe). In reaction to RCC objection (and of course the inquisition) he was compelled to defend his theory theologically, relying on Augustine’s position that every passage in Scripture is not to be taken literally. I repeat Galileo was not a theologian, forced to defend his scientific theory he appealed to Augustinian theology … gee wiz.

The order from the church directed Galileo to cease holding or defending the theory of heliocentrism. Your spin (which I assume is Rome’s spin on this error) is revisionist history.

Justasking has nothing at all to apologize for. His understanding of this controversy is perfectly correct. It is yours that is pure spin.

If it were not for falsehoods, what would you write? This is really for another thread, which I will gladly debate with you.

You lie about the Church, so why would anyone believe you?

You need to work on credibility and actually respecting truth.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Are you saying that this was not a “theoological” matter when they tried him for heresy?

No, he’s trying to say that it was Galileo’s theological theory that got him into trouble – not his scientific theory … which is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. Galileo was forced to recant his theory that the sun is at the center of the solar system … the man was not a theologian. Great astronomer and physicist … not theologian.

This is the RCC spin on this controversy so they can say they did not err. In other words they now say it was a theological question not scientific – because if it were a scientific question we could unquestionably prove their error. However, the history is well recorded and no amount of spin will change the facts – it was Galileo’s scientific theory they objected to and forced him to recant – and we can unquestionably prove their error, period!

 

[sola_scriptura]

If it were not for falsehoods, what would you write? This is really for another thread, which I will gladly debate with you.

You lie about the Church, so why would anyone believe you?

You need to work on credibility and actually respecting truth.

Yeah I know – those pesky history books huh?

 

[catholiconce]

What does one expect from you? You left the Church built by Christ because you did not understand and believed falsely. That you still believe falsely is unfortunate, but doesn’t make what you say true. That you can occasionally post a little fact and then twist it to a false conclusion does harm to yourself. We must tell you about this, but it is your responsibility for yourself.

I Did not leave the Church Jesus has founded. I am a catholic just not a Roman catholic. I am a christian If you agree or not. You do not know me or anybody else you attack on this forum. until somebody goes to Heaven and returns to earth with a tally of who is there why attack the ones who are still here. When you arrive in Heavan (and you will) you will be surprised to see your fellow christians there. The neat thing about the entire event is you will get to meet those you attacked here on earth. also you will be able to know the real names of Justasking4 and Sola Scripture and that catholiconce dude. So if at the potlucks in heaven we both reach for Mrs Johnson’s Four bean salad we can talk about old times.