S
scottm
Guest
Ongoing revelations from the Holy Spirit to the individual.
John Wesley was semi-Pelagian (Arminian). I don’t think that negates sola fide.
- Status
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
They don’t read the Bible?
Can you walk me through that please? Thank you.
Teflon: do Protestants want to agree on doctrines? Are we looking for something that has no momentum behind it?
M
mgrfin
Guest
Thank you for the links. It goes to prove that Protestantism is looking for the ‘least common denominator’.
The Apostles Creed is close, but not completely. The Baptists argue against using it; Pentecostals don’t use it. Calvinists get involved in an argument about Jesus decending into Hell, and belief in the “Catholic” Church is questioned.
Presbyterians call the Apostles Creed the ‘most popular’. Of course that is debatable. Catholics say this creed, especially at the beginning of the Rosary, but the Nicean Creed is our most popular, said in Mass, our official liturgy, daily.
The Anglicans, of course, feel they are Catholics, 'members of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." Of course, we don’t recognize them as such.
The Lutherans were most faithful to their roots: Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Fides Sola. They recognized that there was ‘no change’ in this joint agreement on Justification.
Methodists mention divisions among themselves in their site.
The links were very interesting. Thanks.
peace
R
rtconstant
Guest
Well I could certainly see that for the Anglicans, Methodists and Lutherans they’ve always recited them. I honestly can’t speak for Presbyterians though I wouldn’t be surprised.
That said though I know that at least some of the Baptists and Pentecostal denominations wouldn’t be cool with the Creed. I was raised Baptist and they certainly don’t hold to the Communion of the Saints. As for the Pentecostals there are so many diffent types of those I’d be afraid to make much of any kind of universal comment on them. Still to be fair most of the Pentecostal groups are tiny sects or stand alone chuches the vast majority would probably 4square or AoG I would think.
Z
Zooey
Guest
- Yes, in its original languages
- No. Methodists, at least, believe in the Wesley Quadrilateral: Scripture, Tradition, Experience, & Logic.
- Yes.
- Ok, define terms.
If this means penal substitution, no.
If it simply means that “Jesus died for our sins”, then, yes. (Obviously, even). - Yes
- Yes, with qualifications.
I suspect he never had a vocation, & should therefore never have been ordained at all. This is at least as much **his **fault as the Catholic Church’s.
No.
OKIm in a non-denom and we dont object to that at all. I cant speak for all. I wish other protestants would answer cause I would like to know as well.
!!All the Methodist bodies I know of, are OK, with all of that. So are the other denominations of which I have knowledge. (Baptists of varied sorts, Presbyterians, Holiness groups, Anglicans).
Nah, I can’t stand the man.They were probably scared off by the Luther talk for the past 8 threads
None that I am aware of. I did say, however, & I repeat, that not all of them** recite** the creeds. But when they explain what they **do **believe, they believe what the creeds teach.
T
Teflon93
Guest
I believe you’re correct—the Aposte’s Creed if I recall was preferred by Fundamentalists over the Nicene Creed because it developed earlier.
T
Teflon93
Guest
That’s okay—recitation isn’t necessary for belief; as long as they believe this, we can count it among doctrines held in common (or a set of doctrines in this case).
P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
And the Apostles’ Creed doesn’t have that troublesome “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” line in it.
As a Baptist, when I first heard the phrase “communion of saints” it translated in my mind as “all who know Jesus as Savior are members of the invisible church” and the idea that the communion of saints includes those saints no longer on earth, didn’t even register with me. So they might assent to “communion of saints” but they don’t mean the same thing Catholics do.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Gosh, you guys were up early! Are we close yet? It sounds like we are closer than we were yesterday?
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
R
rtconstant
Guest
As a former Baptist I would agree with you. When I first heard the Apostle’s Creed back then I made the same assumptions upon reading it as you point out above. So I agreed to the Creed even though technically I did so without full knowledge of what all I was agreeing to (that pesky fine printAnd the Apostles’ Creed doesn’t have that troublesome “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” line in it.
As a Baptist, when I first heard the phrase “communion of saints” it translated in my mind as “all who know Jesus as Savior are members of the invisible church” and the idea that the communion of saints includes those saints no longer on earth, didn’t even register with me. So they might assent to “communion of saints” but they don’t mean the same thing Catholics do.
)
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
I know my friends at Tenth Presbyterian recite the Apostle’s Creed, and the links I provided indicate this is not isolated. My friends at Tenth often tended to be anti-Catholic doctrine. Some of the sermons posted on their website speaks to that.
From the previous link:
"Posted: 7/09/04
Baptist World Congress to recite Apostle’s Creed
By Steve DeVane
North Carolina Biblical Recorder
BUIES CREEK, N.C. (ABP)–A group of 28 theologians and educators has asked the Baptist World Alliance to recite the Apostles’ Creed at the group’s 100th anniversary meeting next year, which would replicate the first act of the BWA World Congress from 1905 and counter recent charges of liberalism.
John Sundquist of Valley Forge, Pa., chair of the program committee for the BWA congress, said the creed will be recited in the opening session. "
As far as Pentecostals, I don’t know much about them, and haven’t yet taken the time to compare their creed with the Apostle’s creed.
Michael
R
rtconstant
Guest
Well I think it would be more accurate to say that we don’t agree with 100% of the Sola Scriptura beliefs that are out. I think the issue on Sola Scriptura is that its definition seems to be liquid. I remember a thread that was up last year I think where a Catholic poster put up a definition of Sola Scriptura directly from a Protestant denomination’s web site (I forget which one) and not a single Protestant here agreed with it.
I’ve also heard some Protestants here give definitions for Sola Scrptura that I as a Catholic really didn’t have much problem with as it pretty much matched our view of things (in otherwords high on Scripture low on Sola lol).
Take your definition for instance. While I don’t agree at a theological level with the first point you stated at the practical application level one could hold to your view of Sola Scriptura and function as a Catholic quiet easily.
Zooey’s description of the Methodist view seems like it would function easily in the world of Catholic doctrine. Unless I’m misunderstanding one the concepts presented.
So I guess Catholics disagree with how this concept is used in certain situations not necessarily how every individual Protestant or Protestant denomination understands it.
To be honest, sometimes it almost feels like Sola Scriptura is a non-doctrine. I don’t mean that as a sleight but I mean that at a practical level it seems like most Protestants actually attempt to use the same methods for justifying doctrine as Catholics do but since they lack a historical continuum they can look to (like the magisterium, ECF’s etc.) they generally hold a concept the Bible as their historical connection to ancient practice. Yet they to ultimately use the Core doctrines of the ECF’s and generally look to the traditions of their respective denominations to help them understand these dogmas and interpretations. Does that make sense?
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Yes, they have their own magisteria, doctrinal and interpretive traditions, and priesthoods. Yet these are never spoken of. They are the elephants in the room. I don’t say this to criticize but to bring notice to the gulling of the simple folks in the pews.
Yes, but their magisteria or ‘academy of scholars’ interpret those ECFs.
The practice makes sense. But the equivocations and relanguaging do not.
edit: I do not think that what rt and I brought up is irrelevant. Teflon, we could just as well ask if all mainline Protestant denoms – in practice – have magisteria, traditions, and priesthoods.
E
estesbob
Guest
The one doctrine that unifies them all is the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the spawn of satan.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Nope cant claim that because I know churches that dont believe itThe one doctrine that unifies them all is the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the spawn of satan.
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
That was not worth saying. Christians can disagree without having to think the other is satanic. Such false witness, even if joking, is uncalled for.The one doctrine that unifies them all is the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the spawn of satan.
Michael
T
Teflon93
Guest
Actually, the interpretation that the Whore of Babylon in Revelation is in fact the Catholic Church is a doctrine which has been held by some Protestant communities.The one doctrine that unifies them all is the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the spawn of satan.
Certainly, not all mainline Protestant communities did or do (correct me if I’m wrong but I think that was more common in Fundamentalist circles, although I’ve heard it in Pentecostal as well); and I’m not sure it is a necessity one believe that particular view in any of them.
M
Mt_28_19_20
Guest
Your signature includes 1 Peter 5:7, noted in green below. Notice the verses before and after?The one doctrine that unifies them all is the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the spawn of satan.
"Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen. Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God Stand firm in it! She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark. Greet one another with a kiss of love Peace be to you all who are in Christ."
Michael
- Status