And NO ONE has suggested that the Pope and Cardinals are above examination and criticism. …
Did I say someone suggested that? No. By the way, were did you say this numerous times? I’ve read a lot of what you have said, just because I find most of it a waste of time, does not mean I have ignored it. /COLOR]
The fact that the Church was, in part, at fault does not detract in any way shape or form from Luther’s own failings.
Never said that would detract from Luther’s own failings. And Luther’s own failings does not detract from the fact that the Church was, in part, at fault. Do you care to specify a fault, and how it was corrected? Was there only one, or do you have several examples?
What do you want us to do? Never say anything about Luther’s failings? That seems to be where you are going with this. …
Not at all, feel free to bring up Luther’s failings. And equally free to bring up failings of Catholics. I bought a few books for the purpose of becoming familiar with Luther’s failings, though am not an expert, nor do I know all of them. Do you know more about Luther’s and other churches errors, than you know about your own Church’s errors (Popes, individuals holding office in the Church)?
Is the politically correct thing to do to ignore history and place the entire blame for the Reformation at the feet of a blackened Church? …
I never came close to putting the entire blame on the Church. And pointing out a few unfavorable moments of our history is not equivalent to ignoring history. Such drama. The Church’s influence was so substantial at the time, that if the majority of Catholics and Catholic leaders were leading lives reflecting Catholic faith and charity, do you really think an individual as insignifant and imperfect as Luther would have had as much influence as he had? Usually things have to be really bad for people to start to question or leave what they grew up trusting and believing.
Now folks might be very uncomfortable reading about the excesses of Luther and his friends. …
I’m not at all uncomfortable reading about Luther’s excesses. Are you uncomfortable with reading about the excesses of Catholics? Please stop crying about name calling, just because I find your posts to be of little quality and largely a waste of time, that is not the same as name calling.
Luther is not God! He should not be placed on a pedestal above reproach.
Exactly. Don’t forget to say that about Alexander and others. I know you didn’t say they were above examination. However (were you expecting “but…”?), where have you actually said they are not to be placed on a pedestal?
More undefended innuendo. Please state who does not like to admit that and evidence your statement. Or retract the accusation. Thank you.
How about for starters “If the Catholic Church has a fault in regards to Luther, it was that the Church ordained him too quickly.”
or “Corruption among some clergy exascerbated the need for discipline.” Now there’s a great admission, no detail, just vague.
As far as recent evidence, the sex scandal, and how many presumed most of the accusations were just copy-cats, now theres a sign of not liking or wanting to admit to imperfection.
And ignoring historical evidence, ignoring Luther’s failings builds up the Body of Christ how exactly?
I’mm not ignoring Luther’s failings, just including failings on both sides.
Please speak for yourself. Have you left the Church? If so, then what were your reasons?
I know people who have left the Church or are luke warm partially because of the witness of Catholics and the scandal. What, you don’t know people like that? Again, I am Catholic, Comprehend?
So, as I replied to your reply earlier, you have not demonstrated this. Saying that something ‘could probably be claimed’ is not demonstrating it. Your claim lacks evidence.
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Moreover you are tautologizing this claim. Perhaps if you say this often enough, for you, it will be true? Sorry to once again be the bearer of bad news, but for the rest of us, tautology is not how reason and reference work.
You don’t like the links? I’ve demonstrated there was corruption and abuses in the Church, as if no one is aware of that and it needs to be demonstrated? That’s not tautolizing. Take or or leave it.
Teflon and I asked that the thread be split.