Which has more Authority, the Bible or the Church?

[ufamtobie]

Matt 18,19 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock** I will build my “church”,** and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Who has theses “keys”, that can bind or loose anything today? Does the Bible have these keys? No! Why? Because Jesus Christ did not say: “I will build my Bible”. However Jesus Christ, did say: “I will build my Church”.

Does St. Peter have these Keys that can bind or loose? St. Peter had these Keys that can bind or loose, He does not have them anymore. Why? Because St. Peter is now heaven today.

Why did Jesus Christ, have to leave The Keys to a mere man, a man who denied Him three times? The truth is that these KEYS remain here on earth, in the One Church whom Jesus Christ built on Rock.

Now that Jesus Christ built His One and only Church on Peter, only means that His only Church began over 2000 years ago! Any other church is one to many, and can only be summed up to being, man made, not God made.

Truth is no man whether it be “Martin Luther”, nor You or I, can build a church on Peter. Why? Because, we mere man, can not do the building, there is only One builder, and that is Jesus Christ, who already built His Church on Rock over 2000 years ago.

Therefore Martin Luther, etc, etc, are only the builders of men made churches, which was not the will of Jesus Christ. How So? Well, to build a man made church is saying to Jesus Christ, your Church that you built Lord, has been prevailed by Hell, so now us men have to build another. Wrong!

Jesus said of His One Church: “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Surly Martin Luther, etc. etc. did not believe in the Lords Words.

So I beg/Pray all Protestants, come back HOME!

 

[josephback]

Well which came first, the Bible or the Church?

 

[ufamtobie]

Well which came first, the Bible or the Church?[/QUOT

[COLOR=“Blue”]Hi Josephback,

Who came first, the Bible or Jesus who built His Church?

Ufamtobie

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

This isn’t really a question in the sense that the question creates a false dichotomy. The Church produced the Bible. The Bible didn’t just fall out from the sky. As a matter of fact, Sacred Tradition preceded Sacred Scripture, because it was Sacred Tradition that dictated what books were to be included in Sacred Scripture (e.g. why the Book of Enoch is not included in the deuterocanonical Bible). Indeed, “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written” (John 21:25), which indicates to us that not everything can be found in Scripture.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are equal; neither has more authority than the other.

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;8376726]
Matt 18,19 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock** I will build my “church”,** and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Amen. This confession of St. Peter - “You are the Christ, the son of the living God” - and by the leadership Peter particularly, but not singularly gave is the rock upon which the Church is built.

Who has theses “keys”, that can bind or loose anything today? Does the Bible have these keys? No! Why? Because Jesus Christ did not say: “I will build my Bible”. However Jesus Christ, did say: “I will build my Church”.

Does St. Peter have these Keys that can bind or loose? St. Peter had these Keys that can bind or loose, He does not have them anymore. Why? Because St. Peter is now heaven today.

Why did Jesus Christ, have to leave The Keys to a mere man, a man who denied Him three times? The truth is that these KEYS remain here on earth, in the One Church whom Jesus Christ built on Rock.

The Church has these keys, not just the one apostle, but all of them. They belong to the Church Militant. And my pastor regularly exercises them when he speaks the words of absolution.

Now that Jesus Christ built His One and only Church on Peter, only means that His only Church began over 2000 years ago! Any other church is one to many, and can only be summed up to being, man made, not God made.

True. There is only one Church, the congregation of believers where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.

Truth is no man whether it be “Martin Luther”, nor You or I, can build a church on Peter. Why? Because, we mere man, can not do the building, there is only One builder, and that is Jesus Christ, who already built His Church on Rock over 2000 years ago.

Therefore Martin Luther, etc, etc, are only the builders of men made churches, which was not the will of Jesus Christ. How So? Well, to build a man made church is saying to Jesus Christ, your Church that you built Lord, has been prevailed by Hell, so now us men have to build another. Wrong!

Now you’ve changed the church into a belief that on see, one Bishop, one institution is Christ’s Church. It is not. Martin Luther did not build a church. There is only one Church, the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, of which Lutherans, by virtue of our Baptism are part.

Jesus said of His One Church: “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Surly Martin Luther, etc. etc. did not believe in the Lords Words.

You know, sometimes I must control what I say about this type of slanderous polemical nonsense. Luther did believe Christ’s words, and so do I. Did Tetzel as he abused Christ’s Church? Did Leo?

So I beg/Pray all Protestants, come back HOME!

And yet you use above polemics that can only divide. I know you are sincere, because we’ve dialogued before. The problem is your approach here has the opposite effect.

Jon

 

[ufamtobie]

Amen. This confession of St. Peter - “You are the Christ, the son of the living God” - and by the leadership Peter particularly, but not singularly gave is the rock upon which the Church is built.

Hi JonNC,

Tell me what part of “I give you the Keys to the kingdom” don’t you understand. At the time Jesus Gave the Keys to only Peter, then as you know to his successors, yes, the Popes, not me not you not your pastor.

The Church has these keys, not just the one apostle, but all of them. They belong to the Church Militant. And my pastor regularly exercises them when he speaks the words of absolution.

JonNC, Yes, you are correct in saying the Church has the Keys. However Jesus was referring to Peter and not to all of the Apostles Remember Jesus said “I give you” not I give you all. Your pastor can exercise them all he wants, but the truth is he does not have thee keys.

True. There is only one Church, the congregation of believers where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.

JonNC, You are correct in saying above There is only one Church where the Sacraments are administered.

Now you’ve changed the church into a belief that on see, one Bishop, one institution is Christ’s Church. It is not. Martin Luther did not build a church. There is only one Church, the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, of which Lutherans, by virtue of our Baptism are part.

JonNC, I have not changed a thing, I can’t, I don’t have the keys to change anything lol but the truth is Martin Luther did in fact build another church whether he knew it or not, or whether You want to believe it or not.
Yes, by Baptism you are a part of the Catholic Church, but being a part is like being luke warm, you don’t have the fulness of the faith in the only Church Christ built.

You know, sometimes I must control what I say about this type of slanderous polemical nonsense. Luther did believe Christ’s words, and so do I. Did Tetzel as he abused Christ’s Church? Did Leo?

JonNC, I said nothing wrong or slanderous, point it out to me. JonNC forget about Tetzel, or Leo, you forgot to mention Judas the betrayer, he did the Church wrong as well.

And yet you use above polemics that can only divide. I know you are sincere, because we’ve dialogued before. The problem is your approach here has the opposite effect.

Jon

My approach? is not no where near St. John the Baptist, now what did he say to those you came to be baptized by him? Now his approach " you brood of vipers" saved many.

Again, I have said nothing wrong.

Ufamtobie

 

[catholictiger]

Matt 18,19 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock** I will build my “church”,** and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Who has theses “keys”, that can bind or loose anything today? Does the Bible have these keys? No! Why? Because Jesus Christ did not say: “I will build my Bible”. However Jesus Christ, did say: “I will build my Church”.

Does St. Peter have these Keys that can bind or loose? St. Peter had these Keys that can bind or loose, He does not have them anymore. Why? Because St. Peter is now heaven today.

Why did Jesus Christ, have to leave The Keys to a mere man, a man who denied Him three times? The truth is that these KEYS remain here on earth, in the One Church whom Jesus Christ built on Rock.

Now that Jesus Christ built His One and only Church on Peter, only means that His only Church began over 2000 years ago! Any other church is one to many, and can only be summed up to being, man made, not God made.

Truth is no man whether it be “Martin Luther”, nor You or I, can build a church on Peter. Why? Because, we mere man, can not do the building, there is only One builder, and that is Jesus Christ, who already built His Church on Rock over 2000 years ago.

Therefore Martin Luther, etc, etc, are only the builders of men made churches, which was not the will of Jesus Christ. How So? Well, to build a man made church is saying to Jesus Christ, your Church that you built Lord, has been prevailed by Hell, so now us men have to build another. Wrong!

Jesus said of His One Church: “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Surly Martin Luther, etc. etc. did not believe in the Lords Words.

So I beg/Pray all Protestants, come back HOME!

Dei verbum speeks to this and explains it perfectly

article 10 of the Die Verbum

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

The word of God actually has authority of the Magestrium, why because if the Magestirium (sorry about spelling) had authority over the word of God that means the Magestrium could say what ever they wanted to

for example the Mag could say that women could priest but the Mag actually has no power to do this because in the word of God it was clear only men could be priest.

A less controversial example, Jesus is devine the Mag doesn’t have the power to say that jesus isn’t divine plane and simple, if it did then it would be violating the it serves.

 

[RyanK]

Well which came first, the Bible or the Church?

The church, considering the Last Supper as well as the book of Acts.

 

[catholictiger]

The church, considering the Last Supper as well as the book of Acts.

but the word of God still has the Authority over the Church. Remember Devine revelation is more then just the bible, that is something Prods fail to realize.

Devine revelation includes EVERYTHING that the apostles said whether it went in the bible or not. thats why Tradition is such a big part of our teaching because the apostles said more then what is written in the bible.

 

[RyanK]

but the word of God still has the Authority over the Church. Remember Devine revelation is more then just the bible, that is something Prods fail to realize.

Devine revelation includes EVERYTHING that the apostles said whether it went in the bible or not. thats why Tradition is such a big part of our teaching because the apostles said more then what is written in the bible.

Well, I believe they’re equal because they’re the same thing. The church completely coincides with the word of God. The whole Catechism is backed up by scripture. But then again, what do I know? lol. I guess I can’t say either way, I’m not God. Nor does this argument really matter because regardless of which both have power and no matter what conclusion we come to it doesn’t change which contains more authority. The ultimate authority is obviously God and he established both the Church and the Bible.

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;8377038]My approach? is not no where near St. John the Baptist, now what did he say to those you came to be baptized by him? Now his approach " you brood of vipers" saved many.

Again, I have said nothing wrong.

Ufamtobie

True. If it was your intent to drive wedges deeper, the you have said nothing wrong.

Tell me what part of “I give you the Keys to the kingdom” don’t you understand. At the time Jesus Gave the Keys to only Peter, then as you know to his successors, yes, the Popes, not me not you not your pastor.

I understand it quite well, I believe.
*When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. *

This is the power of the keys, and it isn’t just given to St. Peter.

JonNC, Yes, you are correct in saying the Church has the Keys. However Jesus was referring to Peter and not to all of the Apostles Remember Jesus said “I give you” not I give you all. Your pastor can exercise them all he wants, but the truth is he does not have thee keys.

See above in John 20

JonNC, You are correct in saying above There is only one Church where the Sacraments are administered.

JonNC, I have not changed a thing, I can’t, I don’t have the keys to change anything lol but the truth is Martin Luther did in fact build another church whether he knew it or not, or whether You want to believe it or not.
Yes, by Baptism you are a part of the Catholic Church, but being a part is like being luke warm, you don’t have the fulness of the faith in the only Church Christ built.

No he didn’t. We confess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

JonNC, I said nothing wrong or slanderous, point it out to me. JonNC forget about Tetzel, or Leo, you forgot to mention Judas the betrayer, he did the Church wrong as well.

When you say that Luther did not believe Christ’s words that the gates of Hell will not prevail, he said no such thing. As you know the Church is far greater than the Church Militant. Even the failings of our leaders to find unity, even with the faults and sins of the entire Church Catholic for 2000 years cannot empower the gates of Hell to overcome the Church Militant, and certainly not the Church Triumphant (throw in the Church Suffering if you choose).

Jon

 

[catholictiger]

Well, I believe they’re equal because they’re the same thing. The church completely coincides with the word of God. The whole Catechism is backed up by scripture. But then again, what do I know? lol. I guess I can’t say either way, I’m not God. Nor does this argument really matter because regardless of which both have power and no matter what conclusion we come to it doesn’t change which contains more authority. The ultimate authority is obviously God and he established both the Church and the Bible.

read my die verbum quote article 10 paragraph 2, it says the teaching office is not above the word of God or devine rev

 

[RyanK]

read my die verbum quote article 10 paragraph 2, it says the teaching office is not above the word of God or devine rev

Oh, alright. lol. That explains that! Thank you for informing! =]

 

[catholictiger]

Oh, alright. lol. That explains that! Thank you for informing! =]

also notice that it is the soul interpreter of Devine Revelation, so what the Church states on faith and morals is always the truth.

 

[ufamtobie]

True. If it was your intent to drive wedges deeper, the you have said nothing wrong.

Hi JonNC,

I understand it quite well, I believe.
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

This is the power of the keys, and it isn’t just given to St. Peter.

JonNC, The Keys were given to Peter, and Peter had the Keys, He was the Leader of the Apostles. Now regarding “Receive ye the Holy Ghost” Now here is Jesus Referring to all the Apostles, to forgive mans sins and not only to Peter, this reads plain and simple.

See above in John 20



No he didn’t. We confess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

When you say that Luther did not believe Christ’s words that the gates of Hell will not prevail, he said no such thing. As you know the Church is far greater than the Church Militant. Even the failings of our leaders to find unity, even with the faults and sins of the entire Church Catholic for 2000 years cannot empower the gates of Hell to overcome the Church Militant, and certainly not the Church Triumphant (throw in the Church Suffering if you choose).

Jon

Luther did not have to “say such a thing” though his actions tell us otherwise, and actions speaks louder than words, don’t it?

When ones see a fault one should correct it from within the Church, one should not have to leave and start another church, so therefore Luther was wrong.

Ufamtobie

 

[TarkanAttila]

This is the power of the keys, and it isn’t just given to St. Peter.

Jon

Ah… might wanna cross-reference that. See Isaias 22:22 and Apocalypse 3 (The Letter to Philadelphia) and you will see Jesus was not just giving confessive power to Peter.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Luther did not have to “say such a thing” though his actions tell us otherwise, and actions speaks louder than words, don’t it?

When ones see a fault one should correct it from within the Church, one should not have to leave and start another church, so therefore Luther was wrong.

Ufamtobie

Amen. Amen.

That is also why we do not share full communion with our Traditionalist, Old, Orthodox, or High Anglican brothers - although they have valid episcopacies and priesthoods, while most Protestants don’t. Indeed, most Protestants seem to oppose the hierarchical priesthood of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

 

[JonNC]

Luther did not have to “say such a thing” though his actions tell us otherwise, and actions speaks louder than words, don’t it?

When ones see a fault one should correct it from within the Church, one should not have to leave and start another church, so therefore Luther was wrong.

Ufamtobie

He tried. Perhaps not hard enough. So Luther shares equal guilt with those - Pope Leo X and others.

That said, his actions in no way speak to a belief that the gates of Hell could prevail, though it could be said that, leading up to the 1500’s, the gates of Hell were sure making a strong effort.
In every part of this world, even where it is illegal, and subject to harsh punishment, the Gospel of Christ is preached, and the sacraments administered. No, the gates of Hell will never prevail, not in Rome, nor Antioch, nor Wittenburg nor Canterbury.
So that is where you polemic is wrong. Luther wrote this wonderous hymn, which completely contradicts it.

1 Lord, keep us steadfast in your word;
curb those who by deceit or sword
would wrest the kingdom from your Son
and bring to naught all he has done.

2 Lord Jesus Christ, your power make known,
for you are Lord of lords alone;
defend your holy church, that we
may sing your praise triumphantly.

3 O Comforter of priceless worth,
send peace and unity on earth;
support us in our final strife
and lead us out of death to life.

If you want to make the argument that St. Peter, and not his confession, is what Christ built his Church on, then we can certainly dialogue about that. And I believe that the Catholic Church can make an argument regarding his role in that way. I simply take umbrage to the polemics.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Ah… might wanna cross-reference that. See Isaias 22:22 and Apocalypse 3 (The Letter to Philadelphia) and you will see Jesus was not just giving confessive power to Peter.

Read my above post, and you will see that I think there is more to it than that, as well. But certainly, by giving the power to bind and loose to the whole Church via His apostles, it cannot be said the power of the keys reside in only one man or see.

Jon

 

[cerad2]

Why did Jesus Christ, have to leave The Keys to a mere man, a man who denied Him three times? The truth is that these KEYS remain here on earth, in the One Church whom Jesus Christ built on Rock.

So are these keys on display somewhere? Tucked away in the Vatican perhaps. Or is this another one of those metaphor thingees.