Which has more Authority, the Bible or the Church?

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I would think that the Church has more authority than the Bible. The Church gave us the Bible. I feel they are to be used together in our worship, but the Church did decide which books were going to be in the Bible. Sacred Scripture is important just as Sacred Tradition is important.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I would think that the Church has more authority than the Bible. The Church gave us the Bible. I feel they are to be used together in our worship, but the Church did decide which books were going to be in the Bible. Sacred Scripture is important just as Sacred Tradition is important.
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you are incorrect

yes the church gave us the bible

but Christ and his apostles gave us the text that is in the bible.

Devine revelation doesn’t come from the Church it comes from God.

So devine révélation or the Bible, has more authority then the Church.

Dei Verbum makes this clear, in article 10, read up on it.

but pretty much it says

the word of God has authority over the Church, but Christ gave the responsible of interpretation to only one person the teaching office of the Church or the Magestrium, or the communion of Bishops and the Pope.
 
catholictiger said:
you are incorrect

yes the church gave us the bible

but Christ and his apostles gave us the text that is in the bible.

Devine revelation doesn’t come from the Church it comes from God.

So devine révélation or the Bible, has more authority then the Church.

Dei Verbum makes this clear, in article 10, read up on it.

but pretty much it says

the word of God has authority over the Church, but Christ gave the responsible of interpretation to only one person the teaching office of the Church or the Magestrium, or the communion of Bishops and the Pope.
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i agree that devine revelation comes from God. if Christ gave the responsibility of interpretation to the Church i would think that would give the Church the authority.
otherwise, wouldn’t you have the argument for sola scriptura?
 
7_Sorrows said:
i agree that devine revelation comes from God. if Christ gave the responsibility of interpretation to the Church i would think that would give the Church the authority.
otherwise, wouldn’t you have the argument for sola scriptura?
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you didn’t understand what I said

Devine revelation has Authority over the Church

but The Church is the only group who has authority to interpret scripture.

read dei verbum article 10 it clears it up

so you are correct in what you just said.

But the Church can’t say anything that devine revelation didn’t teach.

For example the Church can’t come out and say Christ isn’t divine because Devine Revelation made it clear Christ is divine.

The Church serves the word of God.
 
JonNC said:
True. There is only one Church, the congregation of believers where the word is preached and the sacraments administered.

Jon
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JonNC, above you say that there is only One Church which is the congregation of believers, again I believe that is true. But there is only One House/Church that the congregation of believers must be governed by and have the Sacraments administered to the believers and that is the Catholic Church…There can’t be the Lutheran house, Methodist house etc…Understand? Jesus is not a God that scatters, but unites his congregation under one roof.

JonNC it seems you have a love/hate relationship with the Catholic Church that you say you are a part of but anything less than 100% “part of” is not enough, you must embrace yourself with the Catholic Church be immersed in it, Love the Fact it is the only Church with true facts/history/tradition that it is the Church Christ founded. You know this to be true…because all other churches came 1500 later.

Ufamtobie
 
JonNC said:
Read my above post, and you will see that I think there is more to it than that, as well. But certainly, by giving the power to bind and loose to the whole Church via His apostles, it cannot be said the power of the keys reside in only one man or see.

Jon
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But unfortunately my friend,to state the keys resided to other men is simply based on pure conjecture. There is no empirical evidence Christ did indeed pass te keys to the other 11 men and they to another See? And if I recall I do not believe in the OT the keys were given to others,but simply one man?
 
JonNC said:
Read my above post, and you will see that I think there is more to it than that, as well. But certainly, by giving the power to bind and loose to the whole Church via His apostles, it cannot be said the power of the keys reside in only one man or see.

Jon
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This is assuming one has valid succession. I am not sure what the Lutheran view is in this area. All of our bishops and even our priests have the power to bind and loose, so it certainly was given to the entire Church, at least to the ordained priesthood throughout the Church. As a layman, I can hear people’s confessions, I just can’t absolve them. 😃

Anyway, I would be interested in the Lutheran viewpoint concerning the succession of authority to give the sacraments. I know that our beliefs concerning the sacraments are at least somewhat similar, but this has always been a question I have had.

Thanks.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I would think that the Church has more authority than the Bible. The Church gave us the Bible. I feel they are to be used together in our worship, but the Church did decide which books were going to be in the Bible. Sacred Scripture is important just as Sacred Tradition is important.
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Church gave you the Bible? So Is it not The Word of God but the word of church?
 
rain_bow said:
Church gave you the Bible? So Is it not The Word of God but the word of church?
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Jesus started a Church and gave it his authority. Christians believe Jesus is God, therefore, the Church was given the authority to write the Word of God.

The bible was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The bible did not fall out of the sky.
 
It seems to me that to answer the question we must first be clear about what we mean by authority. Clearly the Bible as a mere book has no authority in the sense of power to command. The Word of God, which is a way of saying the power of God, does have power and it is the ultimate power. The Church can not be greater than the Word of God. The Church does not determine what is the Word of God. It can only apprehend it. If the Church declares that the Bible is the Word of God then the Bible must be a greater authority, in the sense of reflecting truth, than the Church.

The meaning of words are something that only a mind can apprehend. The Bible can not interpret itself. It must be interpreted by a mind. So even though the Bible is the Word of God we must have some way of knowing what it means. Either God has given us all a special faculty for interpreting the Bible correctly or some other mechanism must be in place. It would seem that the Church is that mechanism.
 
exnihilo said:
It seems to me that to answer the question we must first be clear about what we mean by authority. Clearly the Bible as a mere book has no authority in the sense of power to command. The Word of God, which is a way of saying the power of God, does have power and it is the ultimate power. The Church can not be greater than the Word of God. The Church does not determine what is the Word of God. It can only apprehend it. If the Church declares that the Bible is the Word of God then the Bible must be a greater authority, in the sense of reflecting truth, than the Church.

The meaning of words are something that only a mind can apprehend. The Bible can not interpret itself. It must be interpreted by a mind. So even though the Bible is the Word of God we must have some way of knowing what it means. Either God has given us all a special faculty for interpreting the Bible correctly or some other mechanism must be in place. It would seem that the Church is that mechanism.
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We have the Bible to tell us that it is the word of God. This was written by the authoritative men of the Church. Later, authoritative men of the Church defined which letters and epistles were to be a part of the Bibles canon. Scriptures did not tell us this.

The same scriptures that tell us that scriptures are the word of God also tells us the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and that the Church is the place the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known. Scriptures do not tell us this of themselves.

Scriptures tell us to ‘obey our prelates’. Scriptures do not tell us to ‘obey scriptures alone’.

Scriptures do not tell us to privately interpret the scriptures. When this became a ‘practice’ we have many interpretations of scriptures. Many truths do not equal one truth.

The Church does not place itself as greater than the word of God. The word of God does not place itself as greater than the Church. It does however refer us to the Church.
 
SteveVH said:
This is assuming one has valid succession. I am not sure what the Lutheran view is in this area. All of our bishops and even our priests have the power to bind and loose, so it certainly was given to the entire Church, at least to the ordained priesthood throughout the Church. As a layman, I can hear people’s confessions, I just can’t absolve them. 😃

Anyway, I would be interested in the Lutheran viewpoint concerning the succession of authority to give the sacraments. I know that our beliefs concerning the sacraments are at least somewhat similar, but this has always been a question I have had.

Thanks.
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Hi Steve,
While some Lutherans maintained apostolic succession, all Lutherans via the confessions believe that AS is important to the Church. So, important and even desirable. But not necessary for validity of the priesthood or sacraments. The German Lutherans following the Reformation depended on divine law and prestyter ordination. And presbyter ordination, incidentally, was also used in the 1400’s, if I recall correctly, by the Catholic Church.
I hope that answers the question, my friend.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Hi Steve,
While some Lutherans maintained apostolic succession, all Lutherans via the confessions believe that AS is important to the Church. So, important and even desirable. But not necessary for validity of the priesthood or sacraments. The German Lutherans following the Reformation depended on divine law and prestyter ordination. And presbyter ordination, incidentally, was also used in the 1400’s, if I recall correctly, by the Catholic Church.
I hope that answers the question, my friend.

Jon
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Thanks Jon. I am not familiar with “presbyter ordination” which says more about my ignorance than about its validity. Would you mind explaining? I’m also a little confused as to how some Lutherans “maintained” apostolic succession.

Thanks again.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
We have the Bible to tell us that it is the word of God. This was written by the authoritative men of the Church. Later, authoritative men of the Church defined which letters and epistles were to be a part of the Bibles canon. Scriptures did not tell us this.

The same scriptures that tell us that scriptures are the word of God also tells us the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and that the Church is the place the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known. Scriptures do not tell us this of themselves.

Scriptures tell us to ‘obey our prelates’. Scriptures do not tell us to ‘obey scriptures alone’.

Scriptures do not tell us to privately interpret the scriptures. When this became a ‘practice’ we have many interpretations of scriptures. Many truths do not equal one truth.

The Church does not place itself as greater than the word of God. The word of God does not place itself as greater than the Church. It does however refer us to the Church.
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as Dei verbum says the Magestrium or the Church serves the Word of God, teaching only what has been handed on to the church.

the word of god actually has power over the church in the sense that it tells us what we can teach and tells what we can’t teach. The church has no such authority it only has the power of interpretation.

I know I have made this point over and over again, but I think it needs to be said.

the answer to the OP is that the Word of God has more authority over the Church, why because God is the ultimate authority on everything, the Church can never have more authority then God himself.

I’m not trying to argue in the favor of prods or anything, because only the church has the power to say what things mean, and the church is the only one who has the power to make moral statements and other statements about God and the Faith.
 
catholictiger said:
as Dei verbum says the Magestrium or the Church serves the Word of God, teaching only what has been handed on to the church.

the word of god actually has power over the church in the sense that it tells us what we can teach and tells what we can’t teach. The church has no such authority it only has the power of interpretation.

I know I have made this point over and over again, but I think it needs to be said.

the answer to the OP is that the Word of God has more authority over the Church, why because God is the ultimate authority on everything, the Church can never have more authority then God himself.

I’m not trying to argue in the favor of prods or anything, because only the church has the power to say what things mean, and the church is the only one who has the power to make moral statements and other statements about God and the Faith.
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And the scriptures tell us that not everything is written…

The scriptures alone can do nothing. Without the Church the scriptures become subject to private interpretations.

The Word was Christ and He is over His Church, which gave us the scriptures, interpretations, and traditions not written about. That is the Word the Magisterium serves.

The Church did not come from the New Testament, but the New Testament from the Church. They cannot be separated; one without the other.
 
And the scriptures tell us that not everything is written…
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yes the word of God Sacred Scripture and Sacred tradition, aka everything from divine revelation
The scriptures alone can do nothing. Without the Church the scriptures become subject to private interpretations.
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that’s why Christ gave the power of soul interpretation to the Church, meaning what they says is the truth. BUT the church CANNOT teach anything that was not handed on to them by the Church, NOTHING

(atleast on faith and morals)
The Word was Christ and He is over His Church, which gave us the scriptures, interpretations, and traditions not written about. That is the Word the Magisterium serves.
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yes
The Church did not come from the New Testament, but the New Testament from the Church. They cannot be separated; one without the other.
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yes but the Word of God or divine revelation still has authority over the Church, it was the Holy spirit who guided them anyway.

I take all of this from dei verbum article 10 paragraph 2.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
And the scriptures tell us that not everything is written…

The scriptures alone can do nothing. Without the Church the scriptures become subject to private interpretations.

The Word was Christ and He is over His Church, which gave us the scriptures, interpretations, and traditions not written about. That is the Word the Magisterium serves.

The Church did not come from the New Testament, but the New Testament from the Church. They cannot be separated; one without the other.
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👍
 
catholictiger said:
yes the word of God Sacred Scripture and Sacred tradition, aka everything from divine revelation

that’s why Christ gave the power of soul interpretation to the Church, meaning what they says is the truth. BUT the church CANNOT teach anything that was not handed on to them by the Church, NOTHING

(atleast on faith and morals)

yes

yes but the Word of God or divine revelation still has authority over the Church, it was the Holy spirit who guided them anyway.

I take all of this from dei verbum article 10 paragraph 2.
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But tiger, Christ Himself MADE the Church, beginning with Peter in Matthew 16:19 (long before the passage was even written!).

Might we say that both the Scripture AND the Church, being established and guided by the Holy Spirit, have equal authority and rule together - Scripture to keep the Church in line, and the Church to keep Scripture in line?
 
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